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Will Hay
Lest we forget
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Buggleskelly Railway St.
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I own both...
Canopus ADVC-100 and the wonderful ATI Radeon 64mb DDR ViVo.
I feel I'm at the limit of my expertise of capturing analogue, or I should say I've had enough.
I've been at it 18 months and even way back using my trusty old VHS-C camcorder I've gotten (word?) some pretty good dvdr's out of the whole process.
I now own a Sony MiniDV camcorder and having found the heaven sent gift that is firewire, decided to go the same route with my analogue captures, ie the world famous, much revered ADVC-100.
"Why?" I hear you ask, "When you were perfectly happy with Virtualdub and the ATI card?"
The answer is simple...
(1) I was sold the ADVC-100 from here, this very site.
This very site from whom everyone, and I mean everyone, proclaimed it the very pinnacle of pro-consumer 'capturing', and
(2) The audio/video sync issue always lurks around the corner and there's no doubt the ADVC eliminates this risk.
So what the hell, I bought it.
Now, I don't proclaim to be an expert.
For those of you who don't know me don't be fooled by my post count.
I've scraped my way along this site and managed to pick up the scraps I've been tossed by other, far more knowledgable folks.
Some nice, some not so nice, some arseholes.
I'm having issues with the colour saturation of the ADVC-100, specifically the colour 'red'.
It was suggested to me, in order to correct this saturation problem, to try 'capture' with scenalzer, and specifically to 'capture' to a Canopus Compatible DV File.
I did this, I still got the saturated red.
I normally capture with Pinnacle Studio 8.10...
...so now feel the problem doesn't lie with my 'capture' software.
It was suggested to me to use the s-video adapter cable that came in the ADVC box, rather than plus my composite directly into the front of the unit.
I did this, nothing changed.
It was suggested I switch composite cables.
I did this, nothing changed.
I now feel I've eliminated everything I can with regards the actual ADVC-100 device - please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Well, actually, that's not true. I haven't had chance to hook up a VCR directly to the ADVC-100 but as I plan to 'capture' a TV signal directly from my TV (via an output adapter on a scart connector) it doesn't matter.
It was suggested to me to playaround with the settings in TMPGEnc, specifically these...
I did this.
I checked just the 'interpolate' box only and still had saturated red
I checked no boxes at all and still had saturated red
I checked the 'set equation' box to DV box only and still had saturated red
I feel, to the best of my ability, I have covered all angles with regards encoding (other than altering the brightness and red colour options in TMPGEnc, within the 'advanced setting' tab which I don't really want to do, I want the ADVC to work as it does for others).
At this point I began to feel like I was expecting too much from the ADVC-100, and recorded a small amount of TV to VHS and them pumped the signal into my computer....
Firstly, with Pinnacle Studio 8.10 via the ADVC-100
and secondly using Virtualdub at 720 x 576 using the PicVideo MJPEG codec at quality setting 19/20.
The following screenshots show the outcome, all encoded with TMPGEnc at 8000CBR.
In all cases, the ADVC-100 is on the left, the ATI capture on the right.
As I say, I'm no expert, if there's any settings I've not qualified please ask and I'll do my best to add them.
Finally, please refrain from posting until I upload all the pics, it might take a little while 
Will
_________________
tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts in one lifetime. So I have.
Last edited by Will Hay on Dec 12, 2003 03:13, edited 5 times in total
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Will Hay
Lest we forget
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Buggleskelly Railway St.
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Will Hay
Lest we forget
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Buggleskelly Railway St.
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One thing I forgot to add is that my ATI card is a budget, a real budget model.
I constantly read how the AIW (All In Wonder) is the card of choice, but I've honestly suprised myself tonight as to how great my £35 Radeon has performed.
Saying that, I'd take the ease of the ADVC anytime, I soooooo want it to work.
Will
_________________
tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts in one lifetime. So I have.
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rhegedus
Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Location: on the jazz
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Good work!
Now for the pics:
Either the Canopus captures slightly darker or the AIW captures slightly lighter.
_________________
Regards,
Rob
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rhegedus
Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Location: on the jazz
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EDIT
_________________
Regards,
Rob
Last edited by rhegedus on Dec 11, 2003 16:42, edited 1 time in total
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proggy
fetch!
Joined: 15 Nov 2003
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I am far from an expert, but the most interesting picture to me is the red star. All the detail is lost in the glow around the star with the canopus. Since that detail has red in it, and you think the red is getting saturated, wouldn't you see the red even more with the canopus shot? Maybe it is a brightness/contrast problem and not a saturation problem?
Of course they are not the exact frames being compared either. Just a thought.
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vhelp
..Semi Neutral..
Joined: 31 Mar 2001
Location: New York
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Hi HayWill..
Bummer you're still complaining about the pics's being too RED (or rich)
in color. But, hay, that's your preference if you like it light colored
.
.
In that case, just set your IRE to 0, instad of 7.5 on your unit.
I have mine set to 7.5 IRE ... (dip 2 is set to ON)
For you, try it at: 0 IRE ... (dip 2 is set to ON)
Yeah, I like my colors more richer, not lighter. But, since you're PAL, may
be your color space is screwy too (like mine here in NTSC, even though I
have it set to PAL's 7.5 IRE  )
.
.
Also, I'm not sure what your SCART is actually doing to your signal though.
I have my doubts that SCARTs are not recommended for the ADVC-100 !!
On the other hand, you could have just become accustome to the light 'ness
in color output of your captured source, and consiquently, it's habbit forming. Anyways..
Good luck,
-vhelp
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trevlac
Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Location: U.S.
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| proggy wrote: |
I am far from an expert, but the most interesting picture to me is the red star. All the detail is lost in the glow around the star with the canopus. Since that detail has red in it, and you think the red is getting saturated, wouldn't you see the red even more with the canopus shot? Maybe it is a brightness/contrast problem and not a saturation problem?
Of course they are not the exact frames being compared either. Just a thought. |
I find the star to be interesting also. I'd expect the white on the ATI to wash out the details because the brightness and contrast seem to be higher on the ATI. Is this really the same pic ?
It may well be a DV codec thing. Not only does the red bleed, the green does too. It's just less noticable. From what I can tell, it's not clear what subsampleing your box does. It may well do 4:1:1, just at a PAL frame rate and size. The assumed problem with this is that you have 1/2 the color from the start. Then when the decompression codec provides the color in 4:4:4 or even 4:2:2 (I'm not sure what happens here), it has to use 1 piece of color data to get the color for 4 pixels. When you go to mpeg, the subsample changes to 4:2:0 which means we only really keep the color for every other line. The method of going from 4:1:1 to 4:2:0 is important because the worse case would be 4:1:0 or about 1 piece of color info for every 8 pixel block. This is indeed made worse by interlace because the lines are offset during movement.
I can't say I have much experience with this problem. I use a cheap BT card, and I havn't noticed on my DVcam. I'm surprized VHelp did not say more about this. Maybe that's not the problem. Could also still be the connectors. However, if the color signal was delayed I'd expect a shift (red moved to the right). If it was a composite (comb/notch) filter thing, I'd only expect bleed in high frequency (line edges). It's my understanding that the color signal in PAL is only mixed with the highest frequencies of the luma.
Anyway, can you produce the color bars from the unit and feed them back into the ADVC and ATI and post the results. That should let people tell which device has the hue/satuartion/whitelevel and black level set correctly. Do it for both IRE settings on the ADVC capture (3 pics total). Don't run them thru MPEG.
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FulciLives
UNDEAD OVERLORD
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA in the USA
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Any possible way of doing another STAR picture but this time with both captures at roughly the same point in time. I am bothered by the lack of detail in the white area surrounding the STAR in the CANOPUS picture but it clearly is not from the same moment in time as the ATI capture ... you can tell that the white star IN the READ STAR (the one in the bottom right leg) is smaller in the CANOPUS pic meaning one pic is behind the other ... and this might explain the differences in the pics.
All in all I don't think the CANOPUS looks bad at all and after all you do have (or should have) ZERO sync problems now which might be worth it even though the ATI picture might be more pleasing to your eye.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman
_________________
"The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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lordsmurf
Video Restorer
Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Location: Want my advice? PM me.
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| vhelp wrote: |
| Bummer you're still complaining about the pics's being too RED (or rich) in color. But, hay, that's your preference if you like it light colored |
Oversaturated and rich/vibrant are not the same. It needs to look real. I shoot with slide film a lot, and though there do exist saturation-additive films, they would equally offer enhancements.
Only doing red or green is faulty, and not rich. It's fake.
In video, I prefer real. In photo, I like color, but I want the full RGB spectrum increased, and I need the option to change it at will.
The experiences Will is having are not favorable at all.
It seems the Canopus is darker too.
The ATI cards via MMC can have all aspects changed (color, saturation, brightness, hue, etc), including the very valuable GAMMA setting, which is normally only found on higher quality cards.
While correcting in TMPGEnc may be an option, at that point it becomes restoration work, and in doing restoration, understand that to recreate a color or alter an original color, you end up altering the others too (though if done right you hopefully won't notice). This again, is not favorable.
I honestly hope there is a fix for this, but I think it's a limitation of the 4:1:1 spec as well as Canopus ADVC/codecs, and maybe even the DV format itself. This is common, but normally not this noticeable this much of the time.
_________________
digitalFAQ.com Guides for video capturing, restoring, authoring, burning. ATI AIW help.
NoMoreCoasters.com How to avoid burning bad discs. Blank media FAQ.
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Will Hay
Lest we forget
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Buggleskelly Railway St.
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| Quote: |
| Any possible way of doing another STAR picture but this time with both captures at roughly the same point in time. I am bothered by the lack of detail in the white area surrounding the STAR in the CANOPUS picture but it clearly is not from the same moment in time as the ATI capture ... you can tell that the white star IN the READ STAR (the one in the bottom right leg) is smaller in the CANOPUS pic meaning one pic is behind the other ... and this might explain the differences in the pics. |
For some reason it was a bit of a struggle to get this one spot on, I'll see what I can do this week.
| Quote: |
| Anyway, can you produce the color bars from the unit and feed them back into the ADVC and ATI and post the results. That should let people tell which device has the hue/satuartion/whitelevel and black level set correctly. Do it for both IRE settings on the ADVC capture (3 pics total). Don't run them thru MPEG. |
I have absolutely no idea what this means.
Anyway, one thing I have noticed from the screenshots is they don't really give a fair representation of the problem I'm experiencing.
What I mean is that when you watch the footage through, once the results produced by the ADVC-100 and then with the ATI the colours look much, much more natural with the ATI.
Much more.
Maybevhelp is right, maybe I've become too accustomed to the ATI captures but I know one thing; I prefer the ATI hands down at the present time.
| Quote: |
In that case, just set your IRE to 0, instad of 7.5 on your unit.
I have mine set to 7.5 IRE ... (dip 2 is set to ON)
For you, try it at: 0 IRE ... (dip 2 is set to ON) |
This was suggested to me yesterday, before I did my screenshots, so if I remember correctly what you see is a result or the IRE set to 0.
I was under the impresssion this setting was irrelevent for PAL users but like I say it doesn't seem to make a difference.
This is from the Canopus website:
I'll do some testing on it though.
Will
_________________
tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts in one lifetime. So I have.
Last edited by Will Hay on Dec 12, 2003 02:35, edited 1 time in total
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trhouse
Member
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
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The captures look very impressive with both devices. The difference in color reminds me of the difference between a Sony and a Panasonic TV. Sony's seem warmer with slightly more contrast but Sony's have a setting for the color temperature which definitely affects it.
Thank you for sharing these captures with us.
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Will Hay
Lest we forget
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Buggleskelly Railway St.
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| trhouse wrote: |
The captures look very impressive with both devices. The difference in color reminds me of the difference between a Sony and a Panasonic TV. Sony's seem warmer with slightly more contrast but Sony's have a setting for the color temperature which definitely affects it.
Thank you for sharing these captures with us. |
Thanks, but I do worry these do not reflect the overall problem I'm having, and may be misleading to any prospective ADVC-100 buyers.
Please folks, don't be under any illusion - the quality I'm getting from the ADVC-100 at the present time (without any colour adjustment in TMPGEnc) is unacceptable to me.
I agree it doesn't look too bad in the screenshots but trust me, its far more noticable during playback.
Will
_________________
tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts in one lifetime. So I have.
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lordsmurf
Video Restorer
Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Location: Want my advice? PM me.
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One of the high end TBC's may help you, whereas you can augment the luma/chroma ... but it'll run at least $600 or more for a good one ..
_________________
digitalFAQ.com Guides for video capturing, restoring, authoring, burning. ATI AIW help.
NoMoreCoasters.com How to avoid burning bad discs. Blank media FAQ.
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Will Hay
Lest we forget
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Buggleskelly Railway St.
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| lordsmurf wrote: |
| One of the high end TBC's may help you, whereas you can augment the luma/chroma ... but it'll run at least $600 or more for a good one .. |
Then it's not an option, but thanks.
I'm not spending anymore, with a second child due in March and a wife giving up work its the last thing I'm going to do.
Worst case...
....I use the ATI and ADVC-100 selectively, depending on
a) the condition of the source
b) the final use and
c) how I feel at the time
Will
_________________
tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts in one lifetime. So I have.
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Will Hay
Lest we forget
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Buggleskelly Railway St.
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| FulciLives wrote: |
| ... you can tell that the white star IN the READ STAR (the one in the bottom right leg) is smaller in the CANOPUS pic meaning one pic is behind the other ... and this might explain the differences in the pics. |
Jeesh!
I never noticed how far out those two frames were until you pointed out the white star in the btm right leg 
Will
_________________
tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts in one lifetime. So I have.
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Moonstomp
Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Location: Dublin, Ireland.
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Thanks Will
I had been considering buying an ADVC-100 - again due to the glowing reviews on this site. However having read your piece and seen the screenshots I think I'll stick with my current setup: Pinnacle PCTV (tv card) - cost me about STG £40, Virtual VCR & Huffuv. I get comparable quality to your ATI card, capturing to AVI.
Hope you get that ADVC-100 sorted !! 
Moonstomp.
_________________
Just because you're nobody, doesn't mean that you're no good. Just because there's a reason, doesn't mean it's understood. It doesn't make it all right ! (The Specials)
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rhegedus
Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Location: on the jazz
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These TV caps, were they terrestrial, cable or satelite?
I know the same conditions will apply to both capture devices, but I'm just curious about the resolution.
Have you still got some cam footage on tape that you could pass through both of these devices - might be a bt more natural colour than those from TV.
_________________
Regards,
Rob
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acanthis
Member
Joined: 10 May 2001
Location: United Kingdom
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I have been using an ADVC-100 for well over a year now and have created hundreds of VCDs, SVCDs and DVDs from the video captured with it. Compared to the hassle that I have experienced with some analogue capture cards I would need some very compelling arguments to make me abandon the ADVC.
On the red saturation; yes, it does. Is that not a "feature" of the DV compression format? I thought I read somewhere that some red over-saturation and stairstepping artefacts on diagnonals were almost unavoidable with DV, but some codecs are better than others ... and the one used in the Canopus seems to be one of the best.
What matters to me is what the overall experience is like, and I can say that watching DVDs created using DV captured with the Canopus from a digital cable tuner, and then encoded with MainConcept or TMPGEnc, I find it very hard to tell the difference from the live broadcast. That's good enough for me and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Canopus 100% Certainly a high end analogue capture card with a lossless compression codec like HUFYUV (which I have used extensively in the past) would give better results, but it's a balance. Most consumer capture cards have audio sync errors because the PC's sound card is used to capture the audio and the clocks are not synced - you don't get that hassle with the Canopus.
One small thing, I have found that the best codec for rendering the video on the PC is MainConcept as opposed to the default Microsoft supplied one.
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Will Hay
Lest we forget
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Buggleskelly Railway St.
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| rhegedus wrote: |
These TV caps, were they terrestrial, cable or satelite?
I know the same conditions will apply to both capture devices, but I'm just curious about the resolution. |
Sky TV is pumped to each bedroom, but I recorded three minutes to VHS tape and then outputted it to the ADVC via composite.
| rhegedus wrote: |
| Have you still got some cam footage on tape that you could pass through both of these devices - might be a bt more natural colour than those from TV. |
I don't have any analogue footage, no.
Oh no, wait, I have some footage I converted via the ATI and put on DVDr but that's not gonna be any use really, is it.
I suppose I could try it.
_________________
tgpo, my real dad, told me to make a maximum of 5,806 posts in one lifetime. So I have.
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rhegedus
Member
Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Location: on the jazz
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Silly question:
Did you use the same tape for the AIW as for the Canopus or was the AIW cap direct from Sky?
_________________
Regards,
Rob
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Will Hay
Lest we forget
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Location: Buggleskelly Railway St.
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| acanthis wrote: |
| I have been using an ADVC-100 for well over a year now and have created hundreds of VCDs, SVCDs and DVDs from the video c | | | |
