confused about codecs

[Anonymous]

I shot a test video with Panasonic TZ60 at 50 fps in AVCHD which according to media info is blu ray?. In vegas I slowed it down by one quarter -it was a slow motion test- and rendered as mpeg4 at 25fps. One part stutters. What frame rate should I have rendered?

Also I have a Nikon D3200 which shoots.mov which i understand is mpeg 4. I saw someone online saying they could convert them to avchd. Is that right or is avchd blu ray


https://vid.me/Rcwe second clip. First two cars approaching camera, especially headlights on second. It is meant to be blurry

[_Al_]

Did you disabled re-sample? Try this to slow it down to 25p.
Right click a clip on timeline/properties/Disable resample. This way, Vegas will not generate new frames. Then make a mark that corresponds to exactly double length, for example copy clip and paste it next to it to get a distance, position your slider there and press M key to make a mark. Delete that pasted clip. Then grab the end of the clip while holding Ctrl key and drag the end to that mark. Export as 25 fps.

[Anonymous]

Did you disabled re-sample? Try this to slow it down to 25p.
Right click a clip on timeline/properties/Disable resample. This way, Vegas will not generate new frames. Then make a mark that corresponds to exactly double length, for example copy clip and paste it next to it to get a distance, position your slider there and press M key to make a mark. Delete that pasted clip. Then grab the end of the clip while holding Ctrl key and drag the end to that mark. Export as 25 fps.

Thanks. Not sure what you mean by export as 25 fps. Do you mean render? I rendered as bluray 25fps and still have stutter in the second car headlight near camera

[jagabo]

Did you do as _Al_ suggested? Turn off re-sample? So you don't get blended frames.

[pippas]

Looking at your clip it certainly looks like Vegas has interpolated new frames, which has degraded the clip.

As Al has already suggested, you need to stop Vegas generating new frames, if you merely want to play back your 50fps clip at 25fps (Half speed).... His recommended technique should allow you to do that fine.

By downloading your clip, creating a new 'faking' 50 fps version and then instructing that clip to play at 25fps the attached clip still looks smoother than your original... even though the extra processes will of course have further degraded your source clip.

To get even smoother replay - especially at really slow speeds - you can look at using 'optical flow'.

This you tube clip shows the difference by using 'optical flow' slo-mo and standard Vegas 'velocity envelopes' slo-mo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDCN5srjM_E


Some notes on using MVtools here: https://www.videohelp.com/guides/how-to-create-smooth-slo-mo-video-using-free-software-id1304#1304

[Anonymous]

Did you do as _Al_ suggested? Turn off re-sample? So you don't get blended frames.

yes. i made a test rendered as bluray , bad as ever

[Anonymous]

Looking at your clip it certainly looks like Vegas has interpolated new frames, which has degraded the clip.

As Al has already suggested, you need to stop Vegas generating new frames, if you merely want to play back your 50fps clip at 25fps (Half speed).... His recommended technique should allow you to do that fine.

By downloading your clip, creating a new 'faking' 50 fps version and then instructing that clip to play at 25fps the attached clip still looks smoother than your original... even though the extra processes will of course have further degraded your source clip.

To get even smoother replay - especially at really slow speeds - you can look at using 'optical flow'.

This you tube clip shows the difference by using 'optical flow' slo-mo and standard Vegas 'velocity envelopes' slo-mo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDCN5srjM_E



Some notes on using MVtools here: https://www.videohelp.com/guides/how-to-create-smooth-slo-mo-video-using-free-software-id1304#1304

Thanks for that. Looks good no flickering on headlight of second car. If using what you suggest what would you do,when the slow segment is part of a longer film, put the clip into vegas to render as normal?

[_Al_]

I rendered as bluray 25fps and still have stutter in the second car headlight near camera

Did not downloaded your sample, maybe later, just another point, did you rendered it as 25p, progressive? Set interlace to none in that Blu-Ray template. Blu-Ray templates are set default to render interlace footage.

[pippas]

Thanks for that. Looks good no flickering on headlight of second car. If using what you suggest what would you do,when the slow segment is part of a longer film, put the clip into vegas to render as normal?

I'm not a user of Vegas myself, so hopefully _Al_ will be able to advise on that. The problem with simply introducing a separately created slo-mo section into an otherwise 'normal' speed clip is that the immediate transition into and out of the slo-mo section can look rather crude and sudden.

A better way of doing that is to 'ease' in and out of the slo-mo section. I'm sure Vegas can probably do that? - although it would almost certainly introduce some more 'stuttering' frames in that process, which is not what you want!

I would use MVtools and time the whole slo mo sequence to suit. The guide I linked to describes how to do that with free software - although there is a bit of learning curve involved!

You can use 'optical flow' slo-mo software in Vegas, but it would require using the Twixtor plugin ... and sadly that's not free!

Probably best adding your separately generated half speed sequence created using the advice from _Al_ and seeing how it looks first....

Maybe the quick transitions in and out won't look too bad....

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that. Looks good no flickering on headlight of second car. If using what you suggest what would you do,when the slow segment is part of a longer film, put the clip into vegas to render as normal?

I'm not a user of Vegas myself, so hopefully _Al_ will be able to advise on that. The problem with simply introducing a separately created slo-mo section into an otherwise 'normal' speed clip is that the immediate transition into and out of the slo-mo section can look rather crude and sudden.

A better way of doing that is to 'ease' in and out of the slo-mo section. I'm sure Vegas can probably do that? - although it would almost certainly introduce some more 'stuttering' frames in that process, which is not what you want!

I would use MVtools and time the whole slo mo sequence to suit. The guide I linked to describes how to do that with free software - although there is a bit of learning curve involved!

You can use 'optical flow' slo-mo software in Vegas, but it would require using the Twixtor plugin ... and sadly that's not free!

Probably best adding your separately generated half speed sequence created using the advice from _Al_ and seeing how it looks first....

Maybe the quick transitions in and out won't look too bad....

I got a trial of twixtor horrible red x on screen but i do not care as i want to see if it work but it didn't

I would use MVtools and time the whole slo mo sequence to suit.

i use vegas so need to learn how to do with vegas. Thanks

[Anonymous]

I rendered as bluray 25fps and still have stutter in the second car headlight near camera

Did not downloaded your sample, maybe later, just another point, did you rendered it as 25p, progressive? Set interlace to none in that Blu-Ray template. Blu-Ray templates are set default to render interlace footage.

No it is progressive

[_Al_]

You export 24p? In first input of yours you explained exporting 25P.
Exporting 25p, you need to select 1920x180, 50i (sometimes marked as 25i, do not get confused, it is the same thing) Blu-Ray stream, and then fix it in settings, clicking custom button, then changing interlace to none. This way you change 50i to 25p.

[Anonymous]

You export 24p? In first input of yours you explained exporting 25P.
Exporting 25p, you need to select 1920x180, 50i (sometimes marked as 25i, do not get confused, it is the same thing) Blu-Ray stream, and then fix it in settings, clicking custom button, then changing interlace to none. This way you change 50i to 25p.

Sorry for delay getting back to you. I got confused between the 24 fps and the 25 mbps. I rendered as per the attached. By export you mean render as in file/render as?
I do not understand why it should be 1920x180, 50i when i want it progressive? Isn't that p and wher eis settings/custome button. Thanks

[_Al_]

yes, in Vegas if you export you go File/Render AS ...

Export templates in Vegas are a mere suggestions, lots of those values could be changed, perhaps not all of them but almost all of them. Lots of folks is coming to Vegas from Pinnacle or Premiere and overthere (Pinnacle I do not know guessing here) export templates are pretty set with parameters. So in Vegas you choose that template 1920x1080 50i , simply because there is no 1920x25p Blu-Ray template , because that is no Blu-Ray spec 25p. Blu-Ray could be 1920x1080 and 50i only. So you choose that template , click CUSTOM and change interlace to NONE, maybe it is marked as field order there, not sure now. Choose bitrates, 2pass VBR most likely with average bitrate, if you enter for example: 11,000,000 that would mean 11Mbit/s. Vegas wants those numbers in millions, 1 million means 1Mbit/s = 1000kbps

But you can choose another template, not just MainConcept mpeg4/avc, even that Sony avc and do the same, pick up some closest template, like some internet stream and then in CUSTOM changing parameters to 1920x1080 25 progressive (that means field order is NONE). Make sure profile is set to HIGH, sometimes if not setting it HIGH you cannot change other parameters like fullHD resolution, not sure now, maybe I was using older version but today it is fixed or it is , sort of, a "security" feature not sure, to not set profile main for fullHD, don't know.

[Anonymous]

yes, in Vegas if you export you go File/Render AS ...

Export templates in Vegas are a mere suggestions, lots of those values could be changed, perhaps not all of them but almost all of them. Lots of folks is coming to Vegas from Pinnacle or Premiere and overthere (Pinnacle I do not know guessing here) export templates are pretty set with parameters. So in Vegas you choose that template 1920x1080 50i , simply because there is no 1920x25p Blu-Ray template , because that is no Blu-Ray spec 25p. Blu-Ray could be 1920x1080 and 50i only. So you choose that template , click CUSTOM and change interlace to NONE, maybe it is marked as field order there, not sure now. Choose bitrates, 2pass VBR most likely with average bitrate, if you enter for example: 11,000,000 that would mean 11Mbit/s. Vegas wants those numbers in millions, 1 million means 1Mbit/s = 1000kbps

But you can choose another template, not just MainConcept mpeg4/avc, even that Sony avc and do the same, pick up some closest template, like some internet stream and then in CUSTOM changing parameters to 1920x1080 25 progressive (that means field order is NONE). Make sure profile is set to HIGH, sometimes if not setting it HIGH you cannot change other parameters like fullHD resolution, not sure now, maybe I was using older version but today it is fixed or it is , sort of, a "security" feature not sure, to not set profile main for fullHD, don't know.

I doid one at 50i custom no interlace but it is worse

[_Al_]

it is a sample time then, something is going on here ... you can try to upload a very short of clip of yours, 5-10s, where things move left or right a bit ...

[Anonymous]

it is a sample time then, something is going on here ... you can try to upload a very short of clip of yours, 5-10s, where things move left or right a bit ...

this the one at 50i http://wikisend.com/download/915990/50itest.avc Cannot find anywhere else it will upload

[pippas]

Your clip seems to be frame doubled 12.5fps clip. That is, to replay at 25fps each frame is displayed twice. That is why it stutters.
It also seem to indicate some strange properties according to Mediainfo.... which says it is "25 fps - NTSC - and interlaced". Only the first of those parameters seems to make any sense... not sure what's going on there?

If you take your original 50 fps video clip from the camera and simple slow it down to half speed by converting the frame rate to 25fps, it should look something like the attached 25fpsx clip.....

If you want to include that 'slowed down' clip in with other 50fps 'normal speed' footage, you will need to double the frame rate (obviously). It should then look something like the second attached 50fpsx clip....

But to do that you'll need to use 'optical flow' (Twixtor - MVTools, etc)..... If you simply use the standard 'velocity envelope' technique employed in Vegas, you will either double the frames (as per your sample) or possibly add simple interpolated frames?..... Neither technique will look very smooth.

I'm not sure why you couldn't get Twixtor to work?... I understand that the trial has a red cross 'spoiler' until you buy it, but you should be able to get it to work with Vegas?...

You have already said you're not interested in using MVTools (which is free)... but if you want 'smooth' slo-mo results, you will probably need to use an 'optical flow' process of some sort....

(I should add that the attached samples are only intended to show the idea...... As I needed to double your 12.5 fps clip twice, there are artifacts (look at the stripes on the van side at the end of the clip). You should be able to minimise most things like that working with your original 50fps clips....)

[_Al_]

original clip, not processed clip, sorry, my bad, so we can test it in Vegas what is going on, it might interpret clip wrongly etc.,
yes processed clip is not 25fps really, it says 25tff (and Vegas interprets it as bff,you see you have to watch those things, even in this case perhaps does not matter), but it is 25p where even and odd frames are the same, so maybe your original is not 50p,

maybe your clip is recorded as 50p but it is really 50p with repeating frames, or Vegas interprets it wrongly .... or something

[Anonymous]

Original clip

[jagabo]

Your source is 50p with 50 different frames every second. Your video in post #17 is encoded as 25 interlaced frames per second but each frame contains a progressive image, and each pair of frames contains the same image. So it is effectively 12.5 fps. Ie, it is just the source video slowed to 12.5 fps. 12.5 fps will always be jerky. One thing you can do to make it a little less jerky is shoot with motion blur. So shoot 50 fps video with 1/50 second shutter speed. As was pointed out earlier you can use motion interpolation (aka motion flow, optical flow, etc.) to generate in-between frames with in-between motion. But that usually leads to some distortion around objects moving relative to the background. The only way to get real smooth motion and no distortions is to shoot at higher frame rates. For example shooting at 200 fps and slowing to 50 fps to get 1/4 speed playback.

12.5 fps simulated motion blur (using motion interpolation techniques):

[_Al_]

I works here, clip is really 50progressive with unique frames.

-original video was dropped on timeline, right click clip on timeline/properties/disable resample
-making a mark to exactly double the time - copy clips, paste it next to it,make a mark (key M) at the end, deleting that pasted clip, then grabbing the end of the clip while holding Ctrl key and dragging it to that Mark, it also keeps original pitch for audio if you want to keep audio, Vegas was originally audio editor so it handles audio quite well
-I went with Sony avc template exporting, Blu-Ray 1920x1080, 50i template , selected custom and changed profile to High and field order to NONE,......., so Vegas rendered 25 progressive video

go thru this again, you make a mistake somewhere along the way

to get even smoother results, yes use long shutter speeds if possible

It can also be slowed down in Avisynth, using ASSUMEFPS(25), where definitively no re-sampling is happening, you can compare both clips

[_Al_]

I cannot upload AVC file that Vegas created so I just put it in MP4 container

[pippas]

Both your 'Assumefps' and the 'Vegas 50 percent slowdown' clips look fine, but how do you introduce them back into the time line to mix with other 50fps parts of the video, without frame doubling?.....

Would that not re-introduce the kind of 'stutter' that Sounds is tying to remove?

As Jagabo says in his post, the only way to get really high quality slo-mo is to shoot at high frame rate. ..But for those situations where you only realise you've got an interesting subject you'd like to slow down after you've shot the clip, then optical flow probably offers the next best option.

Again, as Jagabo says, optical flow is not perfect - and sometimes gives very weird results - but it can look OK. The attached clip shows how you can vary the speed as you like - where you like - and still retain the constant 50 fps rate required to just add it back into the 50 fps time line with no problems.

[_Al_]

MP4 is an example, if doing in Vegas no intermediate is needed, or uncompressed can be made easily (Sony YUV) if in Avisynth lossless is rendered.

I do not dispute using special tools like twixtor (perhaps not free) or mvtools (Avisynth knowledge needed a bit), just trying to correct OP, he cannot make it work in Vegas, so far.

Without those tools,doing it with Vegas even with resampling enabled, Vegas does not resample in this case, perhaps because it does not have to , in this special case, he has for every new frame a new frame available. If he starts to slow down do weirder fraction scenarios, re-sampling of frames might be happening, he might test those, but sure , it might never be as good as special tools.

Slower shutter speed, shooting it manually helps, but I think even using auto in his case, not a sunny day, shutter speed is not extremely short. If in manual, he might go as low as he can go for 50p, 1/50 where a blur would be introduced, but still it might be ok.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the help with this guys