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  1. Hello.

    After ripping DVD's for a couple of years I've just got a BR Burner, so naturally want to rip Blu-ray's too, which I've been doing okay with BD Rebuilder, TSMuxer etc (backing up to BD25 movie only, English subs). All good so far but just as when I started learning to rip DVD, forced subtitles have tripped me up. In the case of DVD, and after previously learning, PGCEdit is used to turn any streams on/off by default. Naturally I was thinking along the same lines for Blu-ray, the forced stream would be turned on by default when I looked in Arcsoft TMT or PowerDVD - but no.

    How can I identify if a Blu-ray stream is forced?

    Eg: LOTR - The Fellowship Of The Ring, has two English subtitles streams, neither of which show as on by default (when played in software player) but I've established that the second stream is the forced stream, place names etc. If I delete the second stream in TS Muxer, then play the output there are no place names etc (the forced stream), so although it shows as off by default the second subtitle stream is indeed the forced stream?

    Incidentally if I use BD Rebuilder to compress down to BD25 (movie only) and uncheck the second subtitle stream, it is still done correctly, the output still has both subtitle streams, but now the second stream is on by default (shown in software player).

    Hope I've explained correctly and I realise I'm probably set in the way of thinking of it working like a DVD but it clearly doesn't. Any guidance on how to identify a forced subtitle stream? Incidentally is there also a guide anywhere to correctly set streams on/off by default? I saw this thread, if doing it manually (not BD Rebuilder) is that the correct way to set a stream on/off by default?

    Simplified from Example Above:
    Prior to ripping a disc, how can I tell if the movie uses a forced subtitle, and thereafter identify that stream in whatever software?
    Last edited by Nu始eus; 1st Jan 2015 at 03:21. Reason: Better explanation added...
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  2. Still confused by the above mentioned BR disc. Screenshot below shows it loaded into MakeMKV.

    The two subtitle streams are as follows. 1. Full subs for whole movie. 2. Forced subs for place name and and non English spoken parts only. But both show English (forced only)?
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  3. Resolved (partially). Very long thread on the subject of identifying forced subs Here. Specific answer in this post.

    After ripping to hard drive, use Another EAC3to GUI to demux (make an .mkv) of the main movie. Then in the folder where the mkv was created look at the created Log.txt file, in the case of the movie above I got...

    Code:
    Subtitle track 4 contains 1500 captions.
    Subtitle track 5 contains 23 forced captions.
    Some useful reading in that linked thread anyway.
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  4. The North American versions of LoTR have Elvish subs hardcoded, i.e. encoded into the picture. The extended version definitely, and I believe the theatrical as well, though I no longer have those. But as I recall, there were other versions in which the forced subs (for Elvish) were not hardcoded. Evidently you have one of those.

    The great majority of discs with forced subs that I've seen have them embedded in the first subtitle track. That is, they have what's called a "forced flag" telling the hardware standalone player to display them by default, but not the unflagged subs in the same stream. Only very rarely have I seen forced subs in a separate stream. I can't recall the last time I saw that.

    I would not trust PowerDVD whatsoever to reliably mimic how a standalone hardware player behaves. TMT is far better, but it's actually more forgiving of authoring errors. As to MakeMKV, I don't normally use it. It may be giving you false information. If the forced subs are embedded, it's unlikely they would also appear as a separate stream. Or could it be that MakeMKV is extracting them for you as a separate stream? Maybe someone more familiar with MakeMKV will comment.

    Anyway, if your rip does indeed have separate forced subs, it's easy. In BDRB, just turn on the second stream to display by default. I think it's a right-click, haven't used BDRB in a while, but you can turn on a stream for certain.

    At any rate, here's one way to identify forced subtitles: Extract main movie from your full-disc rip (in MakeMKV you would rip to files of course, rather than MKV), with ClownBD. After completion, go into your Clown_BD demux folder and open the first few sub streams with BDSup2Sub. It will tell you if there are forced subs in the stream. If so, you have the option of exporting only the forced subs.

    When the destination will be MKV, I usually hardcode them with RipBot (which will extract them for you) but you can make them selectable, defaulted on.

    If you're re-encoding with BDRB, any forced flags should be intact and you can normally just re-encode the disc. Again, that's assuming MakeMKV hasn't altered the structure. It does seem to have removed the forced flags.

    I hope that helps you a little. Good luck and welcome to the forum.
    Last edited by fritzi93; 1st Jan 2015 at 09:08.
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  5. Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post
    Evidently you have one of those.
    Yes definitely, see the result I got from EAC3to demux above.

    Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post
    I would not trust PowerDVD whatsoever to reliably mimic how a standalone hardware player behaves. TMT is far better, but it's actually more forgiving of authoring errors. As to MakeMKV, I don't normally use it. It may be giving you false information. If the forced subs are embedded, it's unlikely they would also appear as a separate stream. Or could it be that MakeMKV is extracting them for you as a separate stream? Maybe someone more familiar with MakeMKV will comment.

    Anyway, if your rip does indeed have separate forced subs, it's easy. In BDRB, just turn on the second stream to display by default. I think it's a right-click, haven't used BDRB in a while, but you can turn on a stream for certain.

    At any rate, here's how I identify forced subtitles: Extract main movie from your full-disc rip (in MakeMKV you would rip to files of course, rather than MKV), with ClownBD. After completion, go into your Clown_BD demux folder and open the first few sub streams with BDSup2Sub. It will tell you if there are forced subs in the stream. If so, you have the option of exporting only the forced subs.
    MakeMKV has been binned, I wasn't over keen and as you say, the forced subs info it was giving me wasn't clear. I got the answer by demuxing (making an .mkv) with Another EAC3to GUI, shame you have to do that just to see the log file for the subs info! Therefore I'll follow your advice of loading subs into BDSup2Sub to identify forced subs, whether they be flagged or a separate stream. Thanks for your helpful post, cheers.

    Incidentally. It's clever how BDRB works all this out and correctly turns the second (forced only) stream on by default!
    Last edited by Nu始eus; 1st Jan 2015 at 09:12. Reason: Typo...
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  6. Ha, you quoted something as I was editing it. I was trying hard to be more clear.

    Good on you, it seems you have a handle on it now.
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  7. Banned
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    Since you are using TsMuxer >> Demux the subtitle streams (SUP)
    Load into bdsup2sub
    It will identify forced streams or forced entries in those streams
    bdsup2sub>> Export forced only -- pick output format
    New stream with only forced subtitles
    Remux back into file
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  8. Many thanks both of you.

    Just quickly tried your suggested method and yes BDSup2Sup quickly identifies forced subs, be they flagged or as a separate stream. Obviously being new to ripping BR I hadn't realised that quickly demuxing sub streams and loading into BDSup2Sub would reveal all regarding the forced subs. Again, cheers both of you.

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  9. The reason I didn't suggest tsMuxer is that sometimes DTS-MA will make it freeze. Eac3to front-ends like Clown_BD don't have that problem. Also, it will automatically select possible playlists, longest first (usually the main movie), without having to examine the rip with BDinfo. Often times the main movie is spanned over multiple m2ts files, so you need to select the correct playlist file. Though tsMuxer will demux the streams more quickly.

    Happy New Year!
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  10. Nucleus found this tool on the Slysoft forum:

    https://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?59584-Movie-Only-ISO-Forced-Audio-and-Subtitle-Editor

    I registered just to be able to download and test it. Anyone here familiar with it? I'm having a go with it now.

    It seems that fooling with forced subs is not something members here need to do very often. As evidenced by the lack of response to my BDEdit mini-guide:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/365145-How-to-turn-on-subtitle-by-default-on-movie-...39#post2328339

    It worked for me on a few test discs. If someone would be so kind as to give it a go and report? If I could get a member or two to verify it worked for them, I'd ask Baldrick to post it in the Guides section as a Forced Sub/ Default On Sub (BDEdit) guide.
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  11. Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post
    It seems that fooling with forced subs is not something members here need to do very often. As evidenced by the lack of response to my BDEdit mini-guide:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/365145-How-to-turn-on-subtitle-by-default-on-movie-...39#post2328339
    That surprises me - a lot! As mentioned in the OP I'm new to ripping Blu-ray, and subs/forced subs has been the biggest stumbling block/learning curve for me so far, naturally I've been Googling around and have seen a few posts on the subject of subs/forced subs, enabling default streams etc. Wow, surprises me that not many picked up on the original tut.


    Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post
    It worked for me on a few test discs. If someone would be so kind as to give it a go and report? If I could get a member or two to verify it worked for them, I'd ask Baldrick to post it in the Guides section as a Forced Sub/ Default On Sub (BDEdit) guide.
    Having just ripped Hero to hard drive I can confirm that your tut worked flawlessly. Chinese audio (AC3 5.1) with Eng subs (normal ones not Descriptive). The subs were not on by default, followed your guide and enabled them by default - no prob.
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  12. Thanks, I'm doing Avatar right now to double-check.

    Anyway, I tried out that program: Set Default BD ISO Tracks v1.1. It worked for setting the default audio track and for turning on a subtitle track.. Very minimalistic. I could wish it would do BD files as well as ISO, but hey...I'm going to submit it for putting in the Tools section.

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  13. Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post
    I could wish it would do BD files as well as ISO, but hey...I'm going to submit it for putting in the Tools section.
    Mentions in first post that if you need the BD folder version, scroll down and select v2.1.
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  14. Okay, I missed that.

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    Submitted for Tools section.
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  15. Originally Posted by Nu始eus View Post
    Still confused by the above mentioned BR disc. Screenshot below shows it loaded into MakeMKV.

    The two subtitle streams are as follows. 1. Full subs for whole movie. 2. Forced subs for place name and and non English spoken parts only. But both show English (forced only)?
    As you know now, there is no way for a program to know if there are some subtitles flagged as forced in a particular subtitle stream without either demuxing the stream, or analysing it completely. That operations are very time consuming, and it is therefore impossible to do them before displaying the GUI for a specific movie. It's why MakeMKV (and other BD ripping tools) offer usually two ways to demux the same subtitle stream: Demux all subtitles, or demux only the forced subtitles, if any. Of course, if the stream doesn't contain forced subtitles, ticking the "forced only" option has no effect, and no output stream will be created. And, as explained above by fritzi93, if you demux the full stream, you can examine it with BDSup2Sub, and extract the forced subtitles if you wish.

    I do not agree completely with fritzi93. IMO, the BDs with separate subtitle streams containing only the forced subtitles are not so rare. (Something like 20% of the commercial BDs produced in Europe have separate forced subtitle tracks.) Anyway, when a BD has several subtitle tracks in the same language (and if you know that there is no subtitle track for a Director's comment or similar track), that means usually that one of the two tracks is the forced subtitle track. Unfortunately, there is no way to know for sure if it's the first track or the second one, again without demuxing. But you can normally use a good software player to examine the two tracks. (The player must show the list of tracks in the same order than in the MPLS of the BD, and it's usually the case.) Note also that when the forced subtitles are in their own track, they can have the individual forced flag turned ON on all subtitles, but usually it's not the case.

    In a DVD, things are similar, but there is a flag in the IFO that tells if a whole subtitle track is forced. Unfortunately, that flag is not always set when it should. AFAIK, there is no similar global flag in the MPLS files of a BD. It's a pity.
    r0lZ - PgcEdit homepage Hosted by VideoHelp (Thanks Baldrick)
    - BD3D2MK3D A tool to convert 3D BD to 3D SBS/T&B/FS MKV
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  16. @ r0lZ - Thanks for the info and your post. Appreciated, cheers.

    @ fritzi93 - So those two default BD stream apps will show up in the Tools section for download soon?
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  17. I dunno, it may be that Baldrick will have to get permission. After all, AFAIK, currently you can only download it from the Slysoft website, and only if you're a member and logged in. Notice that those little apps are almost a year old.

    You might want to just register at the Slysoft forum. I'd say those two programs are worth having, and truth be told, are easier to use than BDEdit. It's a shame about BDEdit, it had such possibilities, and now development has supposedly ceased. There never was a guide for it that I know of, and without one, it's a fiendishly difficult program.

    Thanks r0lz, for your comments. I guess perhaps separate subtitle tracks are more common on European BDs? Or my modest collection (rather less than 300) is not large enough to be representative.
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  18. Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post
    You might want to just register at the Slysoft forum. I'd say those two programs are worth having...
    Yes worth having. Got them now, cheers...

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    Hi,

    BDtoAVCHD also does a good job identifying forced subtitles:


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  20. Yes, but it has to scan the tracks to determine (approximately) the bitrates. As I wrote above, it's a time consuming operation.
    Furthermore, it deduces that the tracks with low bitrates are forced subtitles tracks. Usually, it's the case, but it may be wrong.

    I agree that it's a good way to identify the forced subtitles when for any reason you cannot visualise them with a player. The Cancel Scan button is also a good idea, because you can interrupt the lengthy operation as soon as the info you need has been displayed. But I'll continue to use a player to identify the forced tracks, because it's more rapid and more precise.
    r0lZ - PgcEdit homepage Hosted by VideoHelp (Thanks Baldrick)
    - BD3D2MK3D A tool to convert 3D BD to 3D SBS/T&B/FS MKV
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  21. Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
    But I'll continue to use a player to identify the forced tracks, because it's more rapid and more precise.
    This is the method I seem to have settled on.

    Now with some practice behind me, I hope I can explain my procedure clearly!

    Play BD in software player (TMT). I'm only interested in English subs so firstly I take note of any subs streams enabled by default (right-click menu in TMT), if so I now know this stream has to be investigated/included in the rip. Then I look through subs in either the main BD menu (Languages) and/or the pop up menu, and enable anything labelled directors commentary, crew commentary etc. Then in TMT right click menu I note which stream it is and know it can be disregarded.

    Any remaining English subs streams are typically normal or SDH, but I still don't know if any forced flags are set. So I rip the movie, relevant audio stream, and remaining English subs streams (typically one but sometimes two). Thereafter load the ripped subs into BDSup2Sub to see if any forced flags are set, I'm only interested in main subs and forced subs so disregard any non needed streams. Then finally rebuild BD in TSMuxer.

    If compressing to BD25, BD Rebuilder identifies forced flags, separates them into a separate stream and enables them by default. See this post by the author. Were it for encoding to x264 (mkv/mp4) I'd convert subs to srt and hard-code them into the video or enable the forced flag when building the mkv (but better hard-coded).

    I've no idea if this seems long winded to those with more experience? But the subs/forced subs business only takes a few minutes investigating the streams prior to ripping. For practice, I've now ripped a few, purposely choosing what I thought may be some awkward ones subs wise, and had perfect success so far.

    As an aside I've also looked at time codes of forced subs in BDSup2Sub and checked in movie playback. Of course, small file size of a ripped subs stream is a sure indicator of a forced stream.

    Thanks to all who contributed to this, and for all the pointers, tips and recommendations. Cheers.
    Last edited by Nu始eus; 6th Jan 2015 at 08:22. Reason: Typos fixed...
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    Hi all,

    I've been following VideoHelp for few years, finally the time has come for me to join you

    Could you please help me getting BD ISO Default Tracks Editor? For some reason I can't download the attatchment above. Anyways, there is only one version, I'd love to have both - working for BD ISO & structure.

    Hope we can manage

    thanks!
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  23. I'm a MEGA Super Moderator Baldrick's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by m.dudzik View Post
    Hi all,

    I've been following VideoHelp for few years, finally the time has come for me to join you

    Could you please help me getting BD ISO Default Tracks Editor? For some reason I can't download the attatchment above. Anyways, there is only one version, I'd love to have both - working for BD ISO & structure.

    Hope we can manage

    thanks!
    Try https://forum.redfox.bz/threads/movie-only-iso-forced-audio-and-subtitle-editor.59584/

    You must login to download.

    Added a direct download of BD Iso Default Track editor:
    Image Attached Files
    Last edited by Baldrick; 6th Oct 2016 at 03:28.
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  24. Now that Slysoft has been replaced by Redfox, the original page to find the regular (non-ISO) Default Tracks Editor is gone. You can now find the program here:

    https://forum.redfox.bz/threads/default-forced-stream-editor-new-tsmuxer-and-clownbd-m...ie-only.58886/
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  25. I'm a MEGA Super Moderator Baldrick's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hbenthow View Post
    Now that Slysoft has been replaced by Redfox, the original page to find the regular (non-ISO) Default Tracks Editor is gone. You can now find the program here:

    https://forum.redfox.bz/threads/default-forced-stream-editor-new-tsmuxer-and-clownbd-m...ie-only.58886/
    I'm adding a mirror that doesn't require a login:


    Edit Folder Default BD Tracks direct download:
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  26. Finding forced subs in a subtitle track and extract them could be automatized with batch script. I just give here some commands that provide that, just copying parts of script, where it logs forced subtitle paths. That is used for mkv muxing later on,but thats another thing, to just get that list, forced_subtitle_list.txt:

    Code:
    :demux <demuxed folder>
    rem demux 
    rem file input is a BD title
    %eac3to% "%path_source%" %title%) -LOG="%~1\eac3to_demux.LOG" %stream1%: "%demux_name1%" %stream2%: "%demux_name2%" .....
    
    rem or m2ts or any other regular BD file, like m2ts:
    %eac3to% "input.m2ts" -LOG="%~1\eac3to_demux.LOG" %stream1%: "%demux_name1%" %stream2%: "%demux_name2%" .....
    
    rem find if there are forced in it, remember there could  be more than one track because demuxing is done altogether for all streams
    rem routine that looks for forced subtitles in title and logs them or extracts sup and logs them into forced_subtitle_list.txt
    rem GETTING number of regular subtitles and forced subtitles, ..., subs are formatted in eac3to_demux.LOG, examples
    rem examples of all possible eac3to LOG outcomes:
    rem Subtitle track 12 contains 85   captions.
    rem Subtitle track 12 contains 28   forced    captions.
    rem Subtitle track 12 contains 1082 captions, 195      forced  captions.
    rem Subtitle track 27 contains 1264 normal     and       37     forced captions.
    rem ...............m.....n........o.....p.......q........r
    set "forced_detected="
    for /f "tokens=3-8 delims= " %%m in ('findstr /b /i /c:"Subtitle track" "%~1\eac3to_demux.LOG"') do call :find_forced "%~1" %%m %%n %%o %%p %%q %%r
    rem this exits the whole demux subroutine
    goto :eof
    
    :find_forced <demuxed folder 1 > <%%m 2> <%%n 3> <%%o 4 > <%%p 5 > <%%q 6 > <%%r 7>
    set stream=%~2
    for /f "tokens=1* delims=:" %%s in ('findstr /c:"----s:%title%_%stream%_Subtitle" "%~1\title_menu.ini"') do set "subt_name=%%~nt"& set "extension=%%~xt"
    for /l %%e in (1,1,5) do if "!extension:~-1!"==" " set extension=!extension:~0,-1!
    if not exist "%~dp1%subt_name%%extension%" (
    	  echo    ERROR, subtitle track %stream%: with this filename:
    	  call :print_path "%~dp1%subt_name%%extension%"
          echo           seems to not exist anymore, no checking for forced in it
    	  goto :eof
          )	
    rem checking if this stream was already logged	  
    if exist forced_subtitle_list.txt for /f "tokens=*" %%g in (forced_subtitle_list.txt) do if "%%g"=="%~dp1%subt_name%%extension%" echo subtitle track %stream%: was already logged in ^"forced_subtitle_list.txt^"& goto :eof
    rem detecting no forced, just regular captions
    if /i "%~5"=="captions."  if /i "%~6"=="" echo subtitle track %stream%: containes %~4 captions
    rem detecting pure forced subs
    if /i "%~5"=="forced"  (
    	   echo subtitle track %stream%: containes %~4 forced captions
    	   call :log_forced "%~1"
    	   set "forced_detected=yes"
    	   )
    rem detecting regular captions and forced
    if /i "%~5"=="captions," if /i "%~7"=="forced" (
    	  echo subtitle track %stream%: containes %~4 captions, %~6 forced captions
    	  call :extract_forced "%~1" %~4 %~6 %stream%
    	  set "forced_detected=yes"
    	  )
    rem detecting regular captions and forced with the word "normal" in it
    if /i "%~5"=="normal" if /i "%~6"=="and" (
    	  echo subtitle track %stream%: containes %~4 captions, %~7 forced captions
    	  call :extract_forced "%~1" %~4 %~7 %stream%
    	  set "forced_detected=yes"
    	  )	 
    goto :eof
    
    :extract_forced <demuxed folder> <number of captions> <number of forced> <stream>
    echo Command line to extract forced subtitles from track %4:
    echo "%path_java%" -Xmx256m -jar %BDSup2Sub% "%~dp1%subt_name%%extension%" "%~dp1%subt_name%_extracted_%3FORCED.sup" /forced
    echo extracting forced %subt_name%_extracted_%3FORCED.sub ...
    ver>nul
    "%path_java%" -Xmx256m -jar %BDSup2Sub% "%~dp1%subt_name%%extension%" "%~dp1%subt_name%_extracted_%3FORCED.sup" /forced > "%~1\%subt_name%_extracted_%3FORCED.LOG"
    if not %errorlevel%==0 (
       echo    ERROR, BDSup2Sub failed to extract forced subtitles from:
       call :print_path "%~dp1%subt_name%%extension%" 
       echo           Maybe there is wrong java.exe path in your INI file
       goto :eof
       )
    if not exist "%~dp1%subt_name%_extracted_%3FORCED.sup" echo    ERROR, this subtitle was not extracted: %subt_name%_extracted_%3FORCED.sup & goto :eof
    echo(%~dp1%subt_name%_extracted_%3FORCED.sup>>"%~1\forced_subtitle_list.txt"
    goto :eof
    
    :log_forced <demuxed folder>
    rem if not exist "%~1\forced_subtitle_list.txt" break>"%~1\forced_subtitle_list.txt"
    echo(%~dp1%subt_name%%extension%>>"%~1\forced_subtitle_list.txt"
    goto :eof
    Last edited by _Al_; 6th Oct 2016 at 12:50.
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