Ho to get a pure interlaced mp4 with ffmpeg?

[marcorocchini]

Hi cats,

please considering this mxf source file:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tveg47laoa1effa/C0044.MXF?dl=0

I get this mp4: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cjrmenbkopqfdkf/c0044.mp4?dl=0

using this commandline

ffmpeg.exe -y -i c:\c0044.mxf -c:v libx264 -profile:v high422 -level:v 4.1 -g 33 -bf 1 -crf 20 -flags +ildct+ilme -top 1 -x264opts tff=1:colorprim=bt709:transfer=bt709:colormatrix=bt709 -filter_complex crop=out_h=1080:y=0,scale=interl=1:in_range=tv:out_range=tv -pix_fmt yuv422p -c:a ac3 -b:a 256k -aspect 16:9 c:\c0044.mp4

so the c0044.mp4 generated from ffmpeg have this mediainfo:

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High 4:2:2@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=2, N=33
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 11s 0ms
Bit rate : 19.4 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : MBAFF
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.375
Stream size : 25.5 MiB (99%)
Writing library : x264 core 142 r2431 ac76440
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=12 / lookahead_threads=2 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=tff / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=1 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=0 / keyint=33 / keyint_min=3 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=33 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=20.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709

Consider also this mp4 encoded with mainconcept totalcode:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wj2j9mzghou3l06/c0044totalcode.mp4?dl=0

that have this mediainfo:

Video
ID : 2
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High 4:2:2@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=2, N=33
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 11s 0ms
Bit rate : 23.7 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.457
Stream size : 31.1 MiB (99%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2014-11-21 11:18:49
Tagged date : UTC 2014-11-21 11:18:49
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709

I wonder: I prefer use ffmpeg but is problematic that the ffmpeg's one don't show the interlaced flag clearly. However it's internally interlaced but my decompressor don't like the MBAAF.
So I wonder: can I get a pure interlaced mp4 with the interlaced flag as the mainconcept's one?

thanks ^^^

[poisondeathray]

This was answered a few times already

x264, (and ffmpeg libx264) use MBAFF only, not PAFF. Use something else like mainconcept or some other compression (e.g. MPEG2) if you need need PAFF

[marcorocchini]

ahm thanks,
so is there not another way to encode interlaced PAFF with ffmpeg using mpeg4 (not libx264)? or another commandline program? thanks

[newpball]

I am trying to understand your rationale of wanting to keep an AVC delivery codec interlaced.

[Cornucopia]

@newpball, you are wasting your time trying to understand ANY of the OP's rationales. I am NOT exaggerating nor trying to be spiteful or sarcastic - much seems to be circular reasoning. And any attempt to request frank clarity brings up mention of his pets again, so I stopped trying a while ago.

Scott

[marcorocchini]

@newpball, you are wasting your time trying to understand ANY of the OP's rationales. I am NOT exaggerating nor trying to be spiteful or sarcastic - much seems to be circular reasoning. And any attempt to request frank clarity brings up mention of his pets again, so I stopped trying a while ago.

Scott

oh, but I'm a cat

[marcorocchini]

I am trying to understand your rationale of wanting to keep an AVC delivery codec interlaced.

it is simple: some time ago I delivered a .mp4 encoded with ffmpeg into the broadcats tv station and they tellme that encoding is ok but it was a mp4 that was be broadcasted directly from the airing room. Some days ago, with the same setting of ffmpeg I delivedered via ftp 9 minutes of images that need to be edited in avid from the station. Initially the quality check person tell me the file is ok, but the avid-man callme telling that seems that my images are jerky, seems that field was inverted. But I know that is not a problem if field order, but most probable that the his decoder "see" my file as progressive because of the MBAFF: it is not clearly interlaced and he wants only files that are flagged as pure interlaced and TFF. So I'm looking for an mp4 encoder that get only "pure" interlaced mp4 files.
I have try the mainconcept, it seems works ok but I prefer ffmpeg, but ffmpeg seems don't get pure interlaced mp4

[newpball]

... I delivedered via ftp 9 minutes of images that need to be edited in avid from the station.

The station should edit the XDCAM HD422 original.

Out of curiosity why do you record interlaced on an XDCAM HD, that seems totally unnecessary.

[marcorocchini]

... I delivedered via ftp 9 minutes of images that need to be edited in avid from the station.

The station should edit the XDCAM HD422 original.

Out of curiosity why do you record interlaced on an XDCAM HD, that seems totally unnecessary.

usually yes, the station work the xdcamhd422 original when the journalist is present and can take the xdcam disc and bring it to the station. But in may occasions, working with the news, happens that the station demand me to transfer the footage via his radio-bridge-network (in sd) or to transcode the mxf files in mp4, or do a pre-edit where the entire footage is putted on the timeline and transcode in mp4: I use a beautiful program called Speed Razor 5.51 (for cats).

I have do some proof and (expecially thanks to poison) I think to get a very very high quality of the mxf --> mp4 transcoding using the commandline (batched) of ffmpeg:

ffmpeg.exe -y -i "%CD%\%~n1.mxf" -filter_complex "[0:1] [0:2] amerge,volume=1" -c:v libx264 -profile:v high422 -level:v 4.1 -g 33 -bf 1 -crf 16 -flags +ildct+ilme -top 1 -x264opts tff=1:colorprim=bt709:transfer=bt709:colormatrix=bt709 -filter_complex crop=out_h=1080:y=0,scale=interl=1:in_range=tv:out_range=tv -pix_fmt yuv422p -c:a libvo_aacenc  -aspect 16:9 "%WorkFolder%\%~n1EncodingfromOriginalMXF".mp4

that take a mp4 that seems almost identical to the original and it's a interlaced file but MBAFF, not clearly interlaced, however is internally interlaced. 2 days ago the station call me on the phone and tell me that my mp4 seems a little jerky, as a field-invert problem, but the file I have send was correctly interlaced and correctly TFF. The same quality check of the station confirm to me that from many proof seems my file was ok but only in the avid workstation was wrong. But the avid operator tell me he don't import directly my file: they use a intermediate transcoder that put in the avid all files that are not mxf files... so that is possible the problem was here, in this transcoder that probably don't see as interlaced a MBAFF files, meanwile see as correctly interlaced the encoding of mainconcept totalcode that in mediainfo show clearly "interlaced" and "Top Field".

In xdcam hd I have to set the camera in interlaced because the broadcasting is interlaced, the broadcats station don't want progressive (or rarely) but obviously the progressive is better quality

[Cornucopia]

And the station gives you MP4 because why? Probably because (let me guess...) your edit system at home cannot handle MXF. And you've already hinted you won't upgrade to a modern NLE, ALL of which can fully support XDCam in MXF. Again, you are bringing all this complexity & difficulty upon yourself when the simple answer is staring you right in the face but you won't budge.

"But I'm a cat!" Bet that one goes over real well at the TV station.

Scott

[marcorocchini]

because you are not a cat! ^^ but me with speed razor I'm a super fast editor
Ok at the moment it cannot import directly mxf files but with the ndjamena batch I convert all mxf in .avi mjpeg, when I have edit all I export in mjpeg or simply in uncompressed. To encode in mp4 simply I drag and drop the .avi (uncompressed) into the avi-->mp4 icon on the desktop and get the mp4 ready to be delivered. It' simply, maybe not the fastest way but works.
THen from the .avi uncompressed I get the mxf file with totalcode, and i put in on the camera in the xdcam disc

in the end it's all very simple

the problem of the mp4 is that the station have multiple decoders: the quality check test the files with a type of decoder that "see" correctly as interlaced a mp4 that are flagged as MBAFF. I send some mp4 that are directly broadcasted in the main control room and they was absolutly ok. In this case the problem was in the avid station, and in a transcoder that "pass" the same mp4 to the avid.

So I have to resolve doing mp4 that mediainfo show "interlaced" and "top field first", not mbaaf
but possibly I would use ffmpeg, not others

[_Al_]

That transcoder produces lossless video? Perhaps not. He could interpret footage to tff, assuming avid should have something like that ... they have their workflows and that's it ...

if not, your footage gets transcoded 3 times ...until it gets on TV, ...,
but anyway, I can see this kind of problems in many TV advertisements, so this could be one of those reasons that happens, I was always wondered how those field get screwed up sometimes, they must know that, but they air it anyway, because they do not have good feedback with supplier of that clip or a will to fix that, no time etc.

[newpball]

In xdcam hd I have to set the camera in interlaced because the broadcasting is interlaced, the broadcats station don't want progressive (or rarely) but obviously the progressive is better quality

I think that is not a good workflow and just because something is broadcasted interlaced does not mean everything up the chain needs to be interlaced.

If you record progressive it is easy to go interlaced but if you record interlaced you are stuck with interlaced and even the best de-interlacers cannot make it perfect afterwards.

“I am amazed that anybody would consider launching new services based on interlace. I have spent all of my life working on conversion from interlace to progressive. Now that I have sold my successful company, I can tell you the truth: interlace to progressive does not work!”.

-Yves Faroudja

[marcorocchini]

seems they have 3 transcoder that process all NON-mxf files, this transcoders are connected to a media-server and with the avid stations. And the media server is connected with the main control room. At the phone they tellsme that the workflow from the transcoders and the avid stations is uncompressed, and that in some cases the avid stations are called (in extreme urgency) from the main control room to send the HD stream of the editor directly to the control room for the broadcast.

I don't have understand why they want' import directly the mp4 in the avid.

Hoewver is possible that the transcoder used in the main control room, see as interlaced a file flagged as "MBAFF" and all is ok. But I need to solve the problem with a unique encoder so that is ok for all trascoders, so maybe I have to use the mainconcept totalcode due to the PAFF encoding.

But it's strange that ffmpeg cannot encode PAFF, only MBAFF when using x264

[marcorocchini]

In xdcam hd I have to set the camera in interlaced because the broadcasting is interlaced, the broadcats station don't want progressive (or rarely) but obviously the progressive is better quality

I think that is not a good workflow and just because something is broadcasted interlaced does not mean everything up the chain needs to be interlaced.

If you record progressive it is easy to go interlaced but if you record interlaced you are stuck with interlaced and even the best de-interlacers cannot make it perfect afterwards.

“I am amazed that anybody would consider launching new services based on interlace. I have spent all of my life working on conversion from interlace to progressive. Now that I have sold my successful company, I can tell you the truth: interlace to progressive does not work!”.

-Yves Faroudja

I know but if you deliver progressive to a tv, at today, this figure as an error (in italy)
I can tell you the truth: the problem is also my camera don't do the 1080p

[marcorocchini]

but want you see me at 25p? https://www.dropbox.com/s/instjq4dpq4ue7t/C0018.MXF?dl=0

[DJ_ValBec]

@marcorocchini

Try to contact the FFmpeg developers (Forums) by mail or joint their IRC channels. They could give you more answers.
- http://ffmpeg.org/contact.html#Forums

[marcorocchini]

I try, thanks

[Cornucopia]

Feel free to compile yourself a fork of ffmpeg that uses something else besides libx264 to encode to h.264...
(It's not the developers of ffmpeg you should write to, it is the developers of x264 - VideoLan. Good luck with getting them to add PAFF. Not going to happen.)

As far as the Rube Goldberg roundtrip compliancy machinations, we now have it straight from the horse's mouth. I rest my case.

Scott

[racer-x]

But it's strange that ffmpeg cannot encode PAFF, only MBAFF when using x264

Because x264 only supports MBAFF and not PAFF. How many time do you need to be told this?

Use Vegas.........Done.

[pandy]

But it's strange that ffmpeg cannot encode PAFF, only MBAFF when using x264

Why? Are You aware of fact that x264 use MBAFF and doesn't support PAFF and as such ffmpeg is limited by x264 limitations.
Use different h.264 encoder than x264.

[marcorocchini]

ok but what I have to do? I don't know other h264 using ffmpeg

[newpball]

ok but what I have to do? I don't know other h264 using ffmpeg

Provide the studio with the XDCAM HD original, they should know what to do with that.

And if it takes too long to ftp buy a $5 usb stick, copy the video and send it to them overnight.

[marcorocchini]

both we have xdcam hd, but they sometimes want footage via fpt and I need to transcode in mp4.

The problem is that seems I cannot find a mp4 encoder that encode a pure interlaced mp4, but only MBAFF

[newpball]

both we have xdcam hd, but they sometimes want footage via fpt and I need to transcode in mp4.

The studio forces you to transcode to H264 and they expect interlaced on top of that?

Perhaps the cat believes it but not I!

[marcorocchini]

not that itI'm a supporter of the interlaced and of the h264, but in every case I forced to deliver interlaced. To send a footage of 15-20 minutes I use X264 at the CRF 22 and the quality is not too low, however using CRF 15 the quality of mp4 is almost equal to that of the original: at least using FFMPEG.

ffmpeg.exe -y -i c:\c0044.mxf -c:v libx264 -profile:v high422 -level:v 4.1 -g 33 -bf 1 -crf 15 -flags +ildct+ilme -top 1 -x264opts tff=1:colorprim=bt709:transfer=bt709:colormatrix=bt709 -filter_complex crop=out_h=1080:y=0,scale=interl=1:in_range=tv:out_range=tv -pix_fmt yuv422p -c:a ac3 -b:a 256k -aspect 16:9 c:\c0044.mp4

In addition: I can export directly in MP4 from the timeline of my Speed Razor 5.51 for cats (it's my modifyed version) using the x264 VFW codec or a DirectShow codec (but at the moment I cannot find a DS codec suitable) because I have do an enhancement to some files of the original Speed Razor. So that the only transcoding process is the first: from mxf to avi (mjpeg).

Hoewver when I export in uncompressed and I mux the uncompressed file in mxf it is almost equivalent to a direct exporting as avid or edius.

Now my only problem is that x264VFW don't support PAFF

[pandy]

ok but what I have to do? I don't know other h264 using ffmpeg

Use any encoder that support PAFF - for example one listed by you at start of this discussion.

Export MXF ffmpeg trough pipe or lossless file - it is up to You.

[marcorocchini]

using mainconcept totalcode all is ok: paff encoding= pure interlaced mp4 and this is ok
but this means that each time I have to export by the timeline in uncompressed, reOpen the uncompressed file in totalcode and encode in mp4


with the x264vfw I directly export in mp4 from the timeline of the speed razor for cats 5.51 but x264 (seems) don't support paff but only mbaff

Now I have try the mainconcept broadcast (it do 422 encoding) avc/h264 directshow codec, it works well in mbaff mode (using the "interlaced frame" option in the "frame type" menu. It works well when is necessary set "progressive" in the "frame type menu"
and.. it don't work when I set "interlaced fields" in the frame type menu: problem is that duration is greater than the original duration in timeline

for example: in timeline I select "export selected area" of the first 10 seconds. The mainconcept codec take a file that have duration of 15 or 20 seconds and the playback is slower

I don't know how to solve, I have try to change the "slice count" but nothing changes

However when the "interlaced fields" is selected the target output file is a pure paff interlaced file (scan type: interlaced/top field order) but with this problem of duration is impossible use it



does anyone know if there is a patch or a way to get paff

using x264vfw? thanks

[Cornucopia]

No. The only way is to:
1. Convince the x264 programmers to include PAFF (which isn't likely going to happen because they strongly do not want to)
2. Convince someone else to create a fork of x264 that includes it (probably only likely if you $$$)
3. Program a fork of x264 yourself

None of those options will change anytime soon (so maybe it's time for a new workflow)...

Scott

[marcorocchini]

None of those options will change anytime soon

but it's strange, for example x264vfw works well, mjpeg encoders works well, some other codec work well and don't have this kind of problem
(duration)