VideoHelp Forum
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2
1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 40
Thread
  1. what is the best source format for recording video ??

    i want something that has no sync and frame accuracy problems after editing in the original source format ie. no conversion just cutting and joining .

    thanks
    Quote Quote  
  2. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Nova Scotia, Canada
    Search Comp PM
    There's no such format.
    Quote Quote  
  3. Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Republic of Texas
    Search Comp PM
    The original source format is the issue. Lossless formats are perfect for editing, but internet streaming formats are not. Streaming formats discard information vital for editing, so that they take up less disc space and bitrate over the internet.

    Your problem is that you are probably trying to edit h264 mp4 or xvid avi or flv files or mpg files with low bitrates. These formats (codecs) were never designed for editing--especially frame-accurate editing. Most also have accompanying audio streams (aac, ac3, mp3, etc) encoded in variable bitrate mode--which can easily drift out of sync.

    If I were you, I would record with a lossless avi format (like Lagarith or HuffYuv) with a PCM (wav) audio stream. After you finish editing, you can always encode down to a streaming format that takes up less disc space and can be streamed online.
    Quote Quote  
  4. I'm a newbie [3 days video editing] and doing a simple cutting & joining without any problem with mp4's low bit-rates short videos [Preferring: HD's for better A/V clarity].

    Yes in my first day:
    I found out problems syncing the Audio & Video inside the file while editing, since the mp4 file still in a "raw" form.
    Then.... I found out that I have to convert them to a better format by double or triple encoding the file(s) with a good encoder.
    Then... no more headache.

    Follow my last post as Mrguss at:
    http://forums.afterdawn.com/threads/how-do-i-autoloop-an-mp4-on-a-cd-or-dvd.750046/

    Good luck.
    Last edited by DJ_ValBec; 25th Oct 2014 at 17:37.
    Quote Quote  
  5. The conversion have to occur while reconstructing GOP in mp4 file, todays videos have long GOP, so if you do not cut your video exactly at I-frame (GOP consists of one I-frame and bunch of P and B frames), that GOP has to be re-constructed again, meaning re-encoded. GOP could be short (second or some seconds - camcorder) or even longer (~10 seconds etc, if encoded with some encoder). If you cut your video every half of minute, I guess that does not matter, but if you edit to have 5 s clips , there is lots of re-encoding going on anyway, even if you smart render (render without re-encoding). I just thought that it should be heard here.

    DV avi video used to be great in that sense, only I-frame codec, so you could cut anywhere, multiple times, exporting to DV avi again would give 100% original as well. Or some Pro camcorders can record I-frame only video, but I think this is not the case here.

    Generally one generation loss is accepted though, especially if original is good. If there is good encoder and generous bitrate video looks just fine. But master should be stored as lossless or editing project together with originals should be kept if there is a chance of working with that edited movie again to still keep same quality levels.
    Quote Quote  
  6. Originally Posted by filmboss80 View Post
    If I were you, I would record with a lossless avi format (like Lagarith or HuffYuv) with a PCM (wav) audio stream.
    What you use also depends on what capture device you are using. If you'r using a DV device (ADVC 110 for example) then DV AVI is your best choice. If you have a capture device that only delivers MPEG 2 video an MPG container is appropriate. Etc.

    What your editing software supports also enters into the equation.
    Quote Quote  
  7. Originally Posted by filmboss80 View Post
    The original source format is the issue. Lossless formats are perfect for editing, but internet streaming formats are not. Streaming formats discard information vital for editing, so that they take up less disc space and bitrate over the internet.

    Your problem is that you are probably trying to edit h264 mp4 or xvid avi or flv files or mpg files with low bitrates. These formats (codecs) were never designed for editing--especially frame-accurate editing. Most also have accompanying audio streams (aac, ac3, mp3, etc) encoded in variable bitrate mode--which can easily drift out of sync.

    If I were you, I would record with a lossless avi format (like Lagarith or HuffYuv) with a PCM (wav) audio stream. After you finish editing, you can always encode down to a streaming format that takes up less disc space and can be streamed online.
    thanks for the reply

    do you know of a camcorder that allows video to be recorded in huffyuv ?? where can i get camcorders that allows video to be recorded in a lossless video format ??? any brand will do. as far as i know all standard entry level camcorders use streaming video formats.

    to everyone who has replied thank you.
    Quote Quote  
  8. Originally Posted by oduodui View Post
    do you know of a camcorder that allows video to be recorded in huffyuv ??
    There is no such thing.
    Quote Quote  
  9. You can piggyback devices like the Atomos Ninja which will capture directly to ProRes or DNxHD.
    http://www.atomos.com/ninja/
    Quote Quote  
  10. do you guys know of any camcorder that records in a lossless format ??

    i know its off topic but do you guys know if pinacle 17 (32 bit) is able to use more than 3.8 gig ram ?? must you have a 64 bit version of pinnacle to use more than 3.8 gigs of ram ??
    Last edited by oduodui; 27th Oct 2014 at 08:11.
    Quote Quote  
  11. Originally Posted by oduodui View Post
    do you guys know of any camcorder that records in a lossless format ??
    Not any consumer camcorder. Pro cameras can shoot raw, eg: http://www.red.com/products

    Originally Posted by oduodui View Post
    i know its off topic but do you guys know if pinacle 17 (32 bit) is able to use more than 3.8 gig ram ??
    No. It probably can't use more than 2 GB.

    Originally Posted by oduodui View Post
    must you have a 64 bit version of pinnacle to use more than 3.8 gigs of ram ??
    Generally, yes.
    Quote Quote  
  12. Keep in mind that an hour of standard definition 8 bit (per channel) YUY2 video compressed with huffyuv is typically around 35 GB. At 1080p it would be around 210 GB.
    Quote Quote  
  13. Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Republic of Texas
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by oduodui View Post
    do you guys know of any camcorder that records in a lossless format ??

    i know its off topic but do you guys know if pinacle 17 (32 bit) is able to use more than 3.8 gig ram ?? must you have a 64 bit version of pinnacle to use more than 3.8 gigs of ram ??
    Okay, we are venturing in a new direction. It might help if you better explained your end goal. Consumer (and most prosumer) camcorders are designed to produce a pretty HD video image using the least amount of disc storage space possible. You will never find one that records in one of the lossless formats. The camcorder recording stage is the "acquisition" stage, and for most people, simple cuts of the video will suffice. There are some nice rudimentary editing programs, like AviDemux (which is free), that can edit video on the I-frames without reencoding. If you use a strictly copy video mode in your editing program, without reencoding, you will be performing "non-destructive" editing. And so, you can maintain the quality of the camera original footage. (Remember, direct copying, without reencoding, has no quality loss from the original.) The only drawback is that you will have to edit on the I-frame, which may not be the exact video frame where you desire to make the cut. Some payware editing programs, like Vegas, have "smart rendering" capabilities, enabling you to cut on your exact frame of choice; and if it is not an I-frame, will render the affected frames only, without reencoding the rest of the video footage. (By the way, Pinnacle sucks. And yes, more RAM would be helpful.)

    For extensive editing, many folks convert to a lossless, intermediate format. I mentioned a couple of avi formats; smrpix mentioned DNxHD; and there is also the Cineform codec that GoPro now offers. But now, consider the audio. This is where many people hit a snag, because the audio stream may be highly compressed and recorded in a variable bitrate mode. This is how audio sync gets lost in editing. Consider converting all audio to PCM wav as an editing intermediate format. Once you edit your video and audio footage with good intermediate formats, you can encode to whatever end distribution format you please.

    You need to think in 3 stages: acquisition, editing (post-production), and end distribution. No single video format is ideal for all 3 together, but there are always ways to make things work.
    Quote Quote  
  14. Originally Posted by filmboss80 View Post
    Originally Posted by oduodui View Post
    do you guys know of any camcorder that records in a lossless format ??

    i know its off topic but do you guys know if pinacle 17 (32 bit) is able to use more than 3.8 gig ram ?? must you have a 64 bit version of pinnacle to use more than 3.8 gigs of ram ??
    Okay, we are venturing in a new direction. It might help if you better explained your end goal. Consumer (and most prosumer) camcorders are designed to produce a pretty HD video image using the least amount of disc storage space possible. You will never find one that records in one of the lossless formats. The camcorder recording stage is the "acquisition" stage, and for most people, simple cuts of the video will suffice. There are some nice rudimentary editing programs, like AviDemux (which is free), that can edit video on the I-frames without reencoding. If you use a strictly copy video mode in your editing program, without reencoding, you will be performing "non-destructive" editing. And so, you can maintain the quality of the camera original footage. (Remember, direct copying, without reencoding, has no quality loss from the original.) The only drawback is that you will have to edit on the I-frame, which may not be the exact video frame where you desire to make the cut. Some payware editing programs, like Vegas, have "smart rendering" capabilities, enabling you to cut on your exact frame of choice; and if it is not an I-frame, will render the affected frames only, without reencoding the rest of the video footage. (By the way, Pinnacle sucks. And yes, more RAM would be helpful.)

    For extensive editing, many folks convert to a lossless, intermediate format. I mentioned a couple of avi formats; smrpix mentioned DNxHD; and there is also the Cineform codec that GoPro now offers. But now, consider the audio. This is where many people hit a snag, because the audio stream may be highly compressed and recorded in a variable bitrate mode. This is how audio sync gets lost in editing. Consider converting all audio to PCM wav as an editing intermediate format. Once you edit your video and audio footage with good intermediate formats, you can encode to whatever end distribution format you please.

    You need to think in 3 stages: acquisition, editing (post-production), and end distribution. No single video format is ideal for all 3 together, but there are always ways to make things work.
    you have no idea how much that means to me. thanks

    end goal :

    editing mts files cuting and joining without re coding so that the original quality remains until the final video is assembled.

    since i cannot do that without losing frame accuracy and having audio sync problems the only solution it seems is to have a version of pinnacle that allows me to add all together in one go (and cut and join) and ONLY then recoding the whole thing and therefore i assume you would need a esktop pc having at least 8 to 16 gigs of ram to allow all the material to fit in the watch folder etc.

    i therefore assume that you would need a 64 bit of of pinnacle to make it work.

    maybe there is a way you can use ffmpeg to to edit mts filees losslessly.

    the big issue here is editing(cutiing joining) avchd video in mts container that are over 70 minutes long without losing the original quality by keping the original avchd format(no rendering).

    but once again you guys ARE WONDERFUL and have helped me a whole bunch.

    thanks
    Last edited by oduodui; 27th Oct 2014 at 09:31.
    Quote Quote  
  15. Originally Posted by oduodui View Post
    i assume you would need a esktop pc having at least 8 to 16 gigs of ram to allow all the material to fit in the watch folder etc.
    No, you don't need lots of memory to work with losslessly compressed or uncompressed video. You want lots of disk bandwidth.

    Originally Posted by oduodui View Post
    i therefore assume that you would need a 64 bit of of pinnacle to make it work.
    No. Start up Task Manager and see how much memory Pinnacle is using. I suspect you'll find it's not even using half a gig.

    Originally Posted by oduodui View Post
    the big issue here is editing(cutiing joining) avchd video in mts container that are over 70 minutes long without losing the original quality by keping the original avchd format(no rendering).
    What you really want is a smart editor that only reencodes cut GOPs. Pinnacle Studio has always been one of the worst editors.
    Quote Quote  
  16. "What you really want is a smart editor that only reencodes cut GOPs"

    could you possibly suggest a software package that does this that works with windows 7 64 bit ?

    once again thanks.
    Quote Quote  
  17. The latest version of Pinnacle now smart renders h.264, as I understand it, so just update to a 64 bit version (please double-check this.)

    FWIW, it's a pretty decent NLE these days.
    Quote Quote  
  18. I hate recommending anything by Sony but Vegas or Movie Studio are well regarded. I know they can smart render MPEG 2 (HDV camcorder) but I'm not sure about h.264/AVC (most other HD camcorders).
    Quote Quote  
  19. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    I hate recommending anything by Sony but Vegas or Movie Studio are well regarded. I know they can smart render MPEG 2 (HDV camcorder) but I'm not sure about h.264/AVC (most other HD camcorders).
    Vegas and it's offspring do not smart render h.264 (and I generally have no qualms about recommending Sony. ) Vegas Pro will handle XAVC -- but it's unlikely you'll be using that.
    Quote Quote  
  20. Oops, wrong thread.
    Quote Quote  
  21. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by oduodui View Post
    editing mts files cuting and joining without re coding so that the original quality remains until the final video is assembled.

    since i cannot do that without losing frame accuracy and having audio sync problems
    Of course you can. VideoReDo TV Suite does it perfectly. It's not meant for editing home movies though. I think the software that came with my Panasonic Camcorder does this too, and while it is meant for editing home movies, it's pretty basic and buggy. I think some other camcorders come with their own software that does pretty much the same thing: simple cut+paste editing without re-encoding (except within the GOP that's been cut).

    I assume you mean ".mts" files containing H.264/MPEG-4 AVC HD inside from a modern camcorder? ".mts" files can also hold MPEG-2 HD from older camcorders, and there's quite a lot more software available that will smart render (i.e. not re-encode) this footage.

    Cheers,
    David.
    Last edited by 2Bdecided; 29th Oct 2014 at 10:58.
    Quote Quote  
  22. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Northern California
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by oduodui View Post
    do you know of a camcorder that allows video to be recorded in huffyuv ?? where can i get camcorders that allows video to be recorded in a lossless video format ??? any brand will do. as far as i know all standard entry level camcorders use streaming video formats.
    If your camcorder/DLSR has an HDMI (with live view) the video stream could be available uncompressed, you can capture this and use a lossless video CODEC.

    Quote Quote  
  23. Originally Posted by newpball View Post
    If your camcorder/DLSR has an HDMI (with live view) the video stream could be available uncompressed, you can capture this and use a lossless video CODEC.
    That was already suggested in post #9.
    Quote Quote  
  24. Continuing the use of Pinnacle software is a HUGE mistake. To say it blows just does not cover it.

    Export to Huffy, or Lagarith, video and WAVE audio, edit, then re-encode is guaranteed to work with little to no quality loss. Not exactly fast, though. Knowing your PC details would allow a more accurate estimate.

    Easy-cut methods very likely to have glitches and audio de-synch.
    Quote Quote  
  25. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Northern California
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by newpball View Post
    If your camcorder/DLSR has an HDMI (with live view) the video stream could be available uncompressed, you can capture this and use a lossless video CODEC.
    That was already suggested in post #9.
    Not really, while ProRes and DNxHD are great formats they are certainly not lossless.

    Quote Quote  
  26. Originally Posted by newpball View Post
    while ProRes and DNxHD are great formats they are certainly not lossless.
    The ninja will capture uncompressed as well, but no one in their right mind would bother to do that with a consumer camcorder. Keep some perspective.
    Quote Quote  
  27. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Deep in the Heart of Texas
    Search PM
    @smrpix, according to the manual, that isn't an option - do you know of a trick/workaround?

    @newpball, everyone else understood that "lossless" meant visually- and virtually-lossless, not necessarily mathematically, as there are NO devices, AFAIK, that actually record lossless. If they could do that, they could probably also record uncompressed or raw (which some do). No need to be so literal!

    Scott
    Quote Quote  
  28. Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Northern California
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    @ No need to be so literal!
    I agree just as there is no need to waste a posting to tell it was suggested before as by member jagabo did.

    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    as there are NO devices, AFAIK, that actually record lossless.
    There is one device that can do that without a problem and that device is called a computer, as long as you have a fast enough disk you can record loss less or even raw through HDMI.

    Last edited by newpball; 29th Oct 2014 at 16:11.
    Quote Quote  
  29. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Deep in the Heart of Texas
    Search PM
    Oh, brother, we got a live one!



    Scott
    Quote Quote  
  30. Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    @smrpix, according to the manual, that isn't an option - do you know of a trick/workaround?
    I was going by the claims on their website with the big green dancing checkmarks -- looks like I got suckered by some fancy footwork. B&H says: "Realtime hardware encoding, 1920 x 1080 8/10-bit 4:2:2 to: " Atomos neglects the "to."
    Quote Quote  
Visit our sponsor! Try DVDFab and backup Blu-rays!