".mov" files perfect playback via USB but not HDMI on Samsung ES 7500TV

[fredhoward]

This is very odd. When I play back ".mov" files on my Samsung ES7500 46" smart TV via a Samsung Bluray player BD D 6900 on a DVD or on a USB thumb drive, the video is more like 720p than 1080p which it is recorded as. If I play back the same files on my PC, the video is perfect. As my player is a few years old, I thought it may be failing, so I bought the latest Samsung BD-H6500 model. Same problem.
However, if I connect the same file to the same TV via a USB thumb drive, using a USB input, the playback is perfect ! I have tried 5 different HDMI cables and all give me the same degraded output. That made me suspect that the problem is with the TV's 3 HDMI inputs.
I then connected a PC to one of the HDMI inputs on the TV and ran the same ".mov" into the usb port on the PC. It again played back perfectly ! So, I do seem to be able to play that file via the HDMI input from a PC but not from a Bluray player. I also have a HiMedia HD 900 Player and that too shows a degraded playback. All three of the playback units mentioned here, play back 3D Bluray discs perfectly. If I strip the ".mov" file from the DVD it too plays back fine via a USB. I have now run out of options and Ideas. I have also ordered a new Cat 2 HDMI cable but am aware of advice everywhere that most cables are the same. Just thought I'd eliminate that too. Any ideas will be gratefully received

[fredhoward]

Thought I had found the answer. The files come up on screen as 1080 60P, not 1080 50P as all my other videos do. I checked the camera's settings but it is 1080 50P Pal. It's a cheap dashcam so in case the menu settings are about face, I reset it to 60hz and shot some footage. Playback via HDMI was still lower res, but via USB is perfect. All mts files from a Sony RX 100 and Panasonic X 920 and TZ 40 are fine via HDMI or USB, whether on disc or USB drive

[Krispy Kritter]

Someone with more insight may have a more accurate answer, but I was checking the BD 6500 specs and it doesn't appear to support 1080 50P (lists 24, 25, 30, 60). Also, file playback resolution is determined by the container (ie: mov in this case) AND the codec used. Some codecs support 1080, others only support 720. User Manual, page 65

[Cornucopia]

It would help greatly if you were more specific & detailed (model#s* & mediainfo are your friends). This is what I get from your OP:

You have this equipment:
1. Samsung ES7500 3DTV
2. Samsung BDD6900 3DBDP
3. Samsung BDH6500 3DBDP
4. HiMedia HD900 BDP
5. HTPC with HDMI out

Did a cursory look at the TV's & original BDP's manuals, and from what I can gather, NONE of those players OUGHT to accept 1080p60! They mention "1080p" alot, but when you dig deeper, their player's limit is Level 4.1, which maxes 1080 at 30fps. And later, it specifically says "1080p30" in one section.

The jury still isn't out, but it's possible some devices are able to do 1080p60 and some only 1080i60 or 1080p30 (all will be able to do 720p60). For you to be able to correctly see 1080p60 ALL devices in the chain have to fully support & recognize it. Which brings us to the next part:

A "player" can mean a number of things. There is a "player" in your TV that plays the multimedia files (you can browse with it and can control its playback), via USB (and possibly LAN/DLNA). There is also a player in your BDplayer. Or possibly more than one (depending upon how it's built): one to play BD, a separate one to play DVD, and a third one to play more generic multimedia data files.
When a BDP is playing your media, the TV is not acting as a player, it is acting as a monitor. So all player controls and all player media requirements are bound to that player, not to the TV. One could be very different from the other WRT mediafile accommodation.

Also, HDMI isn't just a simple dumb cable. It includes protocols & handshake/negotiation & fallback. Which means that while your source player may be able to support certain formats, if either the HDMI spec doesn't support it, or if the receiving device (known as the "sink") doesn't support/recognize it, the source will have to fall back to some alternate. This could mean a resize down to a lower quality version (720p60), or to an interlaced version (1080i60), or it might even mean that it WON'T play at all (stops, error message, freeze, etc.).

So you have to figure all those things into which source (file) with which source player (device) through which pipeline (HDMI/DVI vs. Analog component, etc), with the various supported protocol versions, to the sink (device). And they have to match to play well together.

Also note: some of those cams use AVCHD v1.0. Version 1.0 does NOT support 1080p60. Version 2.0 does (but only on devices that specifically mention supporting it). Blu-ray DOES NOT currently support 1080p60. Neither does 3DBlu-ray (it mainly uses 1080p24, believe it or not). 1080p60 is a good format to start from, but there are still MANY consumer devices that do not yet support it.

BTW, I notice you are in Australia. That might be a complicating factor: you should have most, if not all, of your sources being 25/50 Hz, not 30/60 (or even 24).

I think you should do some more testing and give us some more info...

Scott

*I realize you DO have most of the model #s, but it's hard to tell how you have them connected and what kind of files you are actually using, and if these files were tried identically in all devices.

[fredhoward]

Thanks for the detailed response, Cornucopia. I should have mentioned that both my Samsung BD players have the suffix "A" at the end of the model number. My TV and the players are all therefore 50hz. I usually use Sony's "play memories Home" and Panasonic's "HD Writer AE 5.0" for burning discs from content from a Panasonic X 920 and a SonyRX100 II. I also have a Pana TZ40 that won't use the X920's software, but its own "photofunSTUDIO 9.1 PE" software. All AVCHD discs burned with that software play back perfectly on both of my Samsung BD Players. I have recently come to grips with "MultiAVCHD" software that was recommended to me by this Forum. It does what it says and lets me burn content from all three cameras onto the one disc. Amazing stuff and it also put the time and date on the video too which is something that the Sony and Pana software can't do. Although it accepts the ".mov" files into the mix and burns them to the disc, they show up blank on screen. That isn't a problem as I can burn them to a data disc on their own, but that's where this problem has arisen. All of the stuff from the Sony and Panasonic cameras play back perfectly at 1080p via HDMI but the ".mov" files play back very grainy and a lower def. All are entering the TV by the same path. Via the TV's USB port they are perfect. I can't play back the ".mts or m2ts" files from the discs via the USB as it won't play them, neither will the two Samsung players.
I have just spent an hour with several, Sony, Panasonic m2ts files played back via my HiMediaHD900B through the HDMI cable and all are perfect. When I access the "info" button, it clearly states that all are 1920 X 1080 50fps. However, when playing those "mov" files, the onscreen info says 1920 X 1080 30fps ! This seems to be the only anomaly between all of the files. If this is significant, why do they play back perfectly on the same TV via the USB port? Unfortunately, the Samsung's "info" button does not display the fps, but if the files have been recorded at 30fps, why do they play perfectly on the USB input ? If it wasn't for that info option on the HD900B, I'd be none the wiser. I send all of the Dashcam videos to a brother in the UK on DVD, so I'll advise him to transfer the stuff to an external HDD and play it back via his Samsung's USB. I guess I'll have to archive to DVD and do the same when ever I want to watch it again !
I am assuming now that the camera is telling fibs when it offers 50 or 60 hz in the menu. As I said, it was very cheap, about $50, so I guess I can just play everything back a USB thumb drive or an external HDD, but that isn't very economic from an archiving point of view !

[Krispy Kritter]

The output of the HD900B will depend on how it is configured AND (as you are using HDMI) the formats supported by the TV (as noted above).

I also suspect the info you are seeing onscreen isn't accurate or more precisely what you believe it to be. It's possible the info displayed on the screen is the actual file info and not what is being displayed. For example, the file specs may be 1080P60 (what you see displayed onscreen), but only 1080P50 is displayed onscreen (what is supported by the TV). The visual differences are most likely the result of the different hardware decoding the file and scaling the image. They are not all equal.

The differences in file support and what can/will be displayed vary between devices (as noted previously in the links provided).

[fredhoward]

Thanks again, but to reduce this to one sentence. A .mov file played on my TV is degraded if it arrives at the TV via HDMI, whether via several BD Players or that HiMedia 900B. The same file, arriving at the TV via USB is perfect. Same file and same TV.

[Cornucopia]

Also understand that a ".mov" file is NOT just a single monolithic type. It is a generalized multimedia container. It can support mutliple tracks of audio, video, text, timecode, etc. And each track/stream can be one of MANY, MANY varieties of coding.

It is very likely that, unless your reading/edit/converting app/device is based primarily on Quicktime (QTKit/AVKit/AVFoundation), it will not be able to support the FULL range of possible file options. So it doesn't surprise me at all/most that your ".mov" files show up black.

Easy fix: Get QT7Pro ($29USD) and open the mov in it then convert to a MOV, MP4 or AVI type that IS supported (most likely Uncompressed, or AVC, in MOV/MP4, or Uncompressed, or DV, in AVI). Then, convert that file just as you would with all your other files.

As far as that one sentence: there's more going on with that than you think, but we cannot fully help without either direct copies posted or at least detailed MediaInfo text readouts of both good & bad files.

Scott

[hello_hello]

Thanks again, but to reduce this to one sentence. A .mov file played on my TV is degraded if it arrives at the TV via HDMI, whether via several BD Players or that HiMedia 900B.

And it'll also play fine when played via the PC and HDMI?

The Samsung players don't tend to be overly strict when it comes to sticking to supported video types. My TV and Bluray player are a few years old and High Profile 4.1 is listed as the supported profile and level for the TV, but it'll happily play High Profile Level 5.1 as long as it's at least still within Level 4.1 restrictions (number of ref frames etc).

I'd use MediaInfo (View/Text mode) to obtain some more exact file details and post them here.
I'd try opening one of the mov files with MKVMergeGUI, saving it as an MKV and testing the MKV, just to see if maybe it's the container making the difference.

Maybe try splitting off a small sample of one of the mov files and attaching it to a post here. MKVMergeGUI will split files as it remuxes. Someone (such as myself) with a Samsung Bluray player might test it for you.

My Samsung TV specifies a maximum of 1080p at 30fps. Out of curiosity, I made a couple of small x264 1080p encodes at 50fps and 60fps. The first time I let the encoder pick the level (4.2). The second time I specified 4.1 and the encoder offered this warning message:

[warning]: MB rate (408000) > level limit (245760)

The output files were MKV. I also remuxed them as mov files for testing.

The TV spat out every file as containing unsupported video.
I almost didn't try the Samsung Bluray player (BDP C6500), given the TV wouldn't play them, but who'd have guessed..... it played all the files perfectly.
I checked it's manual and it's not very specific. No profile, level or frame rates mentioned. Despite the fact it only lists support for MP4 containing AAC audio (no MOV), it happily played my MOV test files containing MP3 audio. It's a pity, but most of the time the manufacturer specs can be taken as a guideline at best.

While I was at it, I tried the samples using a Sony Bluray player (S-480, I think). It wouldn't play the video encoded as High profile Level 4.2, but the same video encoded while specifying High Profile, Level 4.1 did play, both 50fps and 60fps at 1080p. As long as it was in an MKV. It doesn't even show MOV files in the file list.

Something else I noticed. The Sony Bluray player seems to be refresh rate ignorant when playing video via USB. It connected to the TV at 60Hz when I powered it up and stayed that way (even though I'm in Pal-Land). It switches refresh rates when playing DVD/Bluray discs, but not for MKVs via USB. The Samsung player surprised me though by switching the TV refresh rate according to the frame rate. 50Hz for 25/50fps, 60Hz for 24/29/60fps.... Well I didn't test 29.97fps but I'd assume......

Not that any of my testing answers the OP's question, but can you upload a small sample? Not that my result will necessarily be the same as yours given I have a different model player, but it might be worth trying....

[fredhoward]

I'm dazzled by your technological brilliance, "hello, Hello", but a lot of it is over my head ! Yes, If I connect an old Dell PC running XP to that same Samsung TV, via a DV-I to HDMI input, those .mov files play back at full res. I have four Blu-ray players, the other two being El Cheapo Soniq Players. They all can't play back .mov files without loss of resolution. The best way to describe it is that the files look like they are 720p DVD files. I have three current HD cameras and when I use the proprietary burning software that came with them, all AVCHD discs produced play back perfectly on all four Blu-ray players via HDMI. It's only the .mov files that are a problem, unless introduced via USB when they are perfect too.
I'll just archive all .mov files to DVD data discs and transfer them to a USB drive when I need to play them again.
Thanks for all your help and suggestions. At least, thanks to this Web site, I have discovered MultiAVCHD and can now use just that one program to burn all files to the one disc from my X920, TZ40 and RX100 AND HAVE THE TIME and DATE on screen, which is something I have been trying to do for years, and had been told that it can't be done. It was discovering that the El Cheapo Dashcam could do it, that led me to this site, where I was told that MultiAVCHD could do it. I'll be happily sending them a donation.

[Krispy Kritter]

Input to the TV by HDMI and USB are NOT the same (just for clarification as you keep implying that HDMI and USB are the same).

HDMI is a digital audio/video signal.

USB is a digital data signal, the TV is decoding and displaying the file.

In regards to "mov", mov is just a container. The actual audio and video codecs used within that container can vary. Not all hardware play and/or support all codecs. I noted in my first reply that the hardware you reference treats different file types in different ways. Specifically, based on the codec used within the mov files, your player may only support 720P. Thus you are likely correct, it may only be 720P and not 1080P.