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  1. Member
    Join Date: Jan 2006
    Location: United States
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    Hello Group,

    I would like to ask opinions here on editing technique. I have produced longer videos before by editing in "chunks". Meaning a 40 minute production was perhaps edited in 10 segments rendered and saved as individual files. Afterwards I would either produce to DVD retaining individual "chunks" or to re-render all the edited chunks together to produce a single file 40min long.

    I am now working on a much more complex project; graphics, effects, lots of precise audio splitting etc. And this is to be a seamless and polished production - very much desired to finish with one indivdual file with great care to production quality. What technique do you recommend? I use Kdenlive as my editor and it is great software, but it seems to have difficulties that make editing a large and complex project difficult / dangerous (lots of saving). Should I edit and render "chunks" again - if so what's the best way to merge them without quality loss? Or is it standard practice to edit as a whole? Please recommend.
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  2. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2007
    Location: Canada
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    Originally Posted by jbartosh View Post
    but it seems to have difficulties that make editing a large and complex project difficult / dangerous (lots of saving). Should I edit and render "chunks" again - if so what's the best way to merge them without quality loss? Or is it standard practice to edit as a whole?
    It depends on the project particulars, but usually more ideal to work with the entire project, because some things may be referenced from the other segments (nesting segments), or you can re-use portions graphics/segments/audio etc.., making the job faster . Sometimes you need access to the entire project, to get an overall impression on themes and color grading

    But if the software or something is unstable on your configuration, then by all means you should edit smaller sections with frequent saving

    You can export in a lossless format (use lossless compression), then re-assemble them into a single video. From that single video you can export other formats intended for other destinations (e.g. blu-ray , dvd, web , etc..)

    The underlying question you should be answering is WHY is the larger project causing problems ? Perhaps you need more memory , maybe some drivers causing issue, maybe some codecs are causing problems... etc... What is happening exactly for you to start this thread ?
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  3. Member
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    The main problem I encounter is after a certain project complexity when I import a new clip to introduce into the timeline Kdenlive will suddenly get glitchy, in that the new clip never tracks in the same place - I will edit the start/end of the clip but when I play it through everytime it will show a different section of the entire video files timeline (not the desired portion I cropped).

    If you feel Kdenlive should be able to handle the project, I can look into it, but is somewhat tedious for me to troubleshoot. I kind of doubt it is system lag, they are 1080/60P files so quite intensive, but no signs of slow down (other than glitch mentioned). System is a dual Xeon 3.0ghz 12 cores 24 threads with 80 GB ECC RAM.

    I was planning on attempting to edit all as one project - with one render. However if members were to suggest there is no real benefit to gain from this, I would probably do segments as in the past to save potential grief.
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  4. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2012
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    That footage is a heavy lift even for your obviously powerful system. If Kdenlive lets you create multiple timelines in a project, break the program down into logical sequences of ~10 minutes each (or whatever runs smoothly) and then combine the sequences into a master sequence for the final render. You can break your sequences at simple straight cuts to make this as smooth as possible.

    This is my regular strategy in Avid or Premiere. Don't know enough about Kden to give explicit instructions.
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  5. Member netmask56's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2005
    Location: Sydney, Australia
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    If your software supports the creation of an EDL then the overall length is irrelevant. You edit the program at your own pace and the 'chunks' or segments that are a suitable length producing the edit decision list as a project file. Then you run the EDL and it does the rest. Totally non destructive and can be amended as needed.
    TheVoiceIsAnotherPerson ~ BeyonWiz DP-P1 and T3 PVR's ~ Popcorn C200 ~ Samsung ES8000 65" LED TV ~ Windows 7 ~ Yamaha RX-A1030 http://www.openwiz.org/wiki/ProjectX
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  6. Member
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    The potential "gain" really really depends on the project particulars, how you have it set up, how you actually do your editing. It sounds wishy-washy, but it's true.

    For example, when you're grading a segment, but don't have quick access to different segements to make changes, you often end with mismatched segments - color balance might slightly be shifted etc...

    I build maximum flexibilty into my editing and project design. I organize it so sequences are nested, so I can make changes in one and have them reflected in others. This means you can do a quick edit and have it reflected in different segments, without having do redo a dozen different edits. e.g Lets say you use some logo or lower third design, but at the last minute, you want to change the color or found a spelling error. All you would have to do is "fix" it in the 1 sequence and wherever that is used, all of them will be updated. Same with motion graphics, overlays, edits that are used in other sequences. If you divide it up, you don't have live access. Planning ahead , smart design, will save you countless hours

    No question there will be potentially fewer problems from not dividing it up. For example, your cut might cause an audio glitch or crackle at the join . But if you're careful when you do the divisions, you might mininize potential problems

    If you're losing your in/out points, frames get mixed up - that's can be symptom of Long GOP editing with some software. Your stability and accuracy will increase if you encode to an I-frame intermediate , maybe prores or dnxhd are good options, crossplatform and should be compatible with kdenlive. Negatives are more HDD space required, takes more time, negligible quality loss

    But if you're happy with the way you've been doing things, just continue doing so. There are many different ways and styles to do projects. Everyone does it slightly differently. You will not lose quality from compression lossess using a lossless intermediate. But an EDL/XML/AAF based on "wobbly" in/out points because of the "flakiness" you're experiencing will result in messed up edits.

    I have zero tolerance for "flakiness" or bugginess. So if I was in your shoes I would use the digital intermediate route even if dividing it up in segments. If that didn't fix it, I would also run some hardware diagnostics. Maybe a bad memory stick etc....
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 30th Aug 2014 at 17:20.
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  7. This is my experience when making MikuMikuDance drama video (i.e. 3DCG):
    1. Divide your project by scene/or when the camera points to a very different direction
    2. Create 1 project for each scene
    3. Output each project as loseless AVI (suggest Lagarith/Utvideo. For uncompressed AVI, the file size can get very big that will slow down editing)
    4. Create a new project, assemble up the pieces and adjust timing, add scene change/transition effects
    5. Export to MP4/MKV

    Raw materials will have to be organized ahead using custom folders, e.g.
    ./Background
    ./BGM
    ./SoundFX
    ./LineArt

    (Use PNG as the default still graphics format, if possible; shrink them beforehand to the size that you will be using in the video)

    and give the products their folder
    ./VideoSections
    ./Product
    AviUtl i18n, plugin developer.
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  8. Member budwzr's Avatar
    Join Date: Apr 2007
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    I have zero tolerance for "flakiness" or bugginess.
    Yeah, that's why some of us have invested in proven software that performs as expected time after time.

    The better software can "Nest" scenes in such a way that eliminates storyboarding, and no need to roll back anything. What a tremendous PIA it is to make a change to a prerender.

    The software you use is only free because they want to put you to work to debug it.
    Last edited by budwzr; 6th Sep 2014 at 15:21.
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