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  1. Member
    Join Date: Jul 2007
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    Event was this past Saturday and Sunday, 8/16 - 8/17/14

    For those who aren't familiar with this event, Value Electronics is a New York dealership who for the last 10 years has hosted a self-sponsored event comparing the best current HDTVs (available at the time of the event) in a head to head shootout. The event is open to the public and some of the top U.S. HDTV calibrators are there to answer questions and calibrate the HDTVs.

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    ''We have a correction to our early determination on the 2014 King of TV. LG's EC9300 OLED won in the most categories and in the most important categories, however, if all the categories are averaged for each TV, the F8500 comes out slightly higher overall. So this year we are declaring a tie between the LG EC9300 OLED and Samsung F8500 plasma, with the expert calibrators' top pick as the Samsung OLED! Congrats to the excellent Samsung, Sony, and LG displays competing in the event.''

    Facebook: Valueelectronics

    Yep, the tied winner with the overall highest score was last years Audience Vote winner Samsung F8500 plasma (the Pros chose the Panasonic TC65ZT60), which is 2nd lowest price HDTV (the LG EC9300 is $3500) and soon (November 2014) to be discontinued. To top it off, the F8500 was placed above the other competitors at an angle in a much less than optimum position and still ranked #1/#2.

    BTW, the LCDs are all huge 78" - 105" monsters in the 5 figure range up to the 6 figure, $120,000, Samsung UN105S9W 105" LCD, all spanked by the OLEDs and lone plasma!

    The event stream is still available here: http://new.livestream.com/accounts/632436 . You'll need to create an account if you don't have one.

    I watched about half of the event live on Saturday and Sunday (would have watched the whole thing if someone at the AVSForum asked (paraphrased) "So you're going to watch a bunch of people watching HDTVs on your HDTV?"

    Highlights for me were Dr. Larry Webber (the pioneer of plasma) who talked about how LCD and OLEDs work (his 2013 lecture on how plasma works is available on YouTube), Joe Kane who talked about why the upcoming UHD standards are far from enough and the Samsung rep acknowledging that plasma is dead because the mass audience didn't want it, while NOT saying anything about why the current OLEDs and LCDs are better!

    Finally, there's some lively posting going on at AVSForum that's been a lot of fun for this NerdGeek!
    Last edited by lingyi; 19th Aug 2014 at 23:13. Reason: Duplicate sentence
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  2. Member fritzi93's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2003
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    Nice summary.

    Funny how two of the winners are either soon to be discontinued or *already* discontinued (Samsung's PN64F8500 and KN55S9C, respectively). Though a quick check at Amazon shows you can still find a Samsung OLED. Not that I disagree about their inclusion in the shootout. The comparisons would be less interesting otherwise.

    My takeaway:

    - The lone plasma beats the much-touted UHD LCD/LEDs in every category.
    - The OLEDs win on the strength of black level/contrast. Which once again shows how important that is.

    Now, I realize the benefit of upconversion on UHD TVs is much debated over at AVS. But without readily available content, they're just behemoth LCD/LEDs. JMO. I have my doubts that an optical UHD format will ever come to fruition, or if it does, that it will ever be anything but niche.

    Farewell to the last reference quality plasma, too bad. If I could afford it right now, I'd get one before they're gone. (Although I have 3 LCD/LEDs, I also have a plasma in the bedroom.) As to OLED, I'll get one when they're bigger, cheaper, and FLAT.
    Last edited by fritzi93; 20th Aug 2014 at 07:17.
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  3. Member TreeTops's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: Oregon
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    Have they resolved the burn in problem with OLED's?
    Inside Every Older Person Is A Younger Person Wondering What The Hell Happened.
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  4. Member fritzi93's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TreeTops View Post
    Have they resolved the burn in problem with OLED's?
    Not that I know of. To my knowledge, it's no worse than a current plasma; you almost have to be trying deliberately to cause burn-in.

    If memory serves, there was a lengthy thread at AVS with pics showing it. There was some question though whether the burn-in from static pictures constituted abuse. Maybe lingyi can elaborate (or correct me).
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  5. Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post
    Farewell to the last reference quality plasma, too bad. If I could afford it right now, I'd get one before they're gone.
    I'm in the same boat. If I could afford it now.....

    Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post
    As to OLED, I'll get one when they're bigger, cheaper, and FLAT.
    Yeah, it looks like I'll be hanging on to my current Samsung Plasma for a few years. Not that there's anything wrong with it. It's only a couple of years old but I'd been considering moving it to another room at some stage and replacing it with a bigger screen. Oh well.... the current TV will have to do until OLEDs are reasonably priced and yes.... FLAT!
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  6. Member
    Join Date: Aug 2006
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    Originally Posted by TreeTops View Post
    Have they resolved the burn in problem with OLED's?
    Burn in can be avoided. I would be more concerned about the blue OLED wearing out more quickly problem, which can't be avoided.

    I'm still hoping that quantum dots will some day provide a better solution to replace OLED.
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  7. Samsung PN64F8500 Plasma Crowned King of HDTV
    by VE Shootout 2014...again?



    That's right the Samsung F8500 has now became the very first HDTV to win the infamous VE Shootout back to back. In 2013 it was the battle of the Plasma's, between the Panasonic VT & ZT series which are no longer available today as they quit production at the end of 2013. Now the F8500 has won again in 2014 with the Highest Overall Average Score despite being pitted against the latest OLED & UHD 4K panels that cost as much as $120,000.00 !

    This is quite a feat considering the placement of the HDTV during the Shootout, because it was mounted high above the current 2014 lineup of OLED & UHD 4K sets. This poor location gave the F8500 a clear disadvantage, because it has an Anti-Glare Louvered Filter called the Real Black Pro Filter which blocks out Ambient Light from Above and Below to allow for better Contrast in Bright-Room situations. Because of it's high placement on the wall, this Louvered Panel actually made the screen appear darker to the rest of the voting audience.

    Despite the poor placement the Audience and Experts both cast their Votes for their favorite HDTV in several categories including: Black Level, Contrast Ratio, Color Accuracy, Motion Resolution (Sharpness), Day Mode and General Content (Video Quality) and the Samsung F8500 came out as the Overall Winner!


    Sources: http://www.cnet.com/...onics-shootout/ http://www.valueelectronics.com/

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    PS: In the picture above you can clearly see the poor placement of the Samsung F8500 way up top far above any normal viewing angle, this is where the Real Black Pro Filter dims because of a Louvered Panel and gets noticably darker. As I own the same tv I can vouch for the dimmed output from this angle.
    Last edited by AlaskanAVphile; 25th Aug 2014 at 14:36.
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  8. Since the Samsung F8500 had the Highest Overall Score it wasn't a tie just a marketing stunt to keep you interested in OLED tv's like the LG 55EC9300, because PLASMA tv's are on their way out thanks to the E.U Energy Standards in a large part, but Plasma still remains King of Picture Quality:

    Samsung F8500: 52.01

    LG 55EC9300: 51.54
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  9. Originally Posted by AlaskanAVphile View Post
    Since the Samsung F8500 had the Highest Overall Score it wasn't a tie just a marketing stunt
    But they don't award the winner based on that score.
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  10. Wrong they did Award the Sam F8500 the Crown based on that Score along with the OLED-LG 55EC9300 set. They had too simply because the F8500 had the Highest Overall Score. Anyway you slice it Plasma is still the King to the bitter end which just so happens to be this year. I'm sure in the future an OLED will be the next best thing once they can fix their major problem with MOTION RESOLUTION & COLOR ACCURACY. Until then the Black Levels are negligible to the human eye and the Day Mode brightness is a push as well because you only Calibrate a tv for around 40ft/L typically which the F8500 can easily achieve up to 65ft/L.
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  11. Originally Posted by AlaskanAVphile View Post
    Wrong
    Listen for yourself. They made an exception for this case.



    46:50 and 1:00:43
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  12. Sorry but having the Highest Score isn't an exception it's a FACT.
    So according to you we shouldn't care about Scores anymore right? Ya lets just do that and give everyone a Trophy like in
    Sports & Racing too i'm sure that would catch on.....lol

    You need to grow up and realize that they were embarrassed that a Year Older HDTV had just WON the Shootout again, with a technology (PLASMA) that their getting rid of because of strict EU ENERGY STANDARDS. Which by the way cost typically only $20 more a year in electricity costs for the same size sets. They were trying to help out the Second Place LG OLED because it is the future, that I don't argue. I will be purchasing an OLED TV down the road but today it lost. As for the proof If you can count, then add up the scores and you'll see for yourself, you can't ignore the FACTS just because you want to LIE to everyone about what TV had the highest Score. Which is why they were urged by the participating voters and public outcry to be honest and give the title to the HDTV with the Highest Scores. Once they were called out they did just that and called it a tie. But we all see who really won it's in the SCORECARDS.


    Samsung F8500: 52.01

    LG 55EC9300: 51.54
    Last edited by AlaskanAVphile; 7th Sep 2014 at 14:53.
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  13. The 4K UHD Elephant in the Room: At the Average Viewing distance of 10' you would need a 77" Screen or bigger before you could see Any Improvements with a 4K UHDTV (3840 x 2160) over a 2K (1920 x 1080) set. These are the limits of the human eye with 20/20 vision.

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    Last edited by AlaskanAVphile; 8th Sep 2014 at 13:54.
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  14. Member fritzi93's Avatar
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    A minor distinction, it seems to me, and not worth arguing about.

    The big problem with UHD (the elephant in the room?) is that one can't be sure the UHD set one buys now will be fully compliant when UHD Blu-Ray arrives late 2015. Yeah, they just announced it. There will likely be HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2. If so, and if you route HDMI through a receiver (as many enthusiasts do), you're gonna need a new one. Pioneer, for example, has a new receiver (big $) that should be able to do the job. Will we get more than 10-bit 4-2-0? Rec 2020? 60 fps?

    I get the concern that, based on resolution alone and without colorspace improvements, it may not be possible to tell the difference without a monster set and/or "close" viewing distance (less than screen width). I wonder myself, but I'm not convinced. As it is, it's hard to distinguish between 720p/1080i broadcast on a smallish (less than 50"?) set at "normal" viewing distance (2x screen width plus).

    That Carlton Bale chart is the subject of vehement disagreement over at AVS. Many knowledgeable enthusiasts say it understates the resolving capability of the human eye. Others, equally knowledgeable, dispute that vigorously.

    Not having a UHD set, I just dunno. I don't quite trust what I think I see in limited viewing in a showroom. And mind you, they choose display material based on maximum wow factor. (I'm thinking of how wildly varied Blu-Ray transfer quality can be).

    Upconversion? Bah.
    Streaming? Well, Netflix has some stuff, but will it catch on? Will it die with a whimper like 3D? (Much as I love 3D, it's becoming very niche).

    I consider myself an "enthusiast" and somewhat knowledgeable. But I dunno if I'm gonna buy in on UHD. I was onboard early with Blu-Ray, but now UHD? I'm not made of money. As to the general public, I don't think they will care. I fear UHD Blu-Ray will be a niche product, at best.

    When either of my 65" or 70" TVs dies, I want a big, flat OLED for a reasonable price. With all the kinks worked out of uneven wear and uncertainty about burn in or image retention. Be it 1080p or UHD.
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  15. Interesting Articles:


    Why 4K TVs are stupid


    http://www.cnet.com/...tvs-are-stupid/


    Why 4K TVs are stupid (still)


    http://www.cnet.com/...e-stupid-still/
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  16. The Overall Total Score:
    Samsung F8500 - 54.6
    Panasonic VT60 - 53.5
    Panasonic ZT60 - 53.4
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    The Overall Total Score:
    Samsung F8500 - 52.01
    LG 55EC9300 - 51.54
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    PS: the 64F8500 PLASMA also beat the Samsung UN105S9W a $120,000.00 4K UHDTV in 2014.
    Last edited by AlaskanAVphile; 8th Sep 2014 at 13:53.
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  17. Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post
    Originally Posted by TreeTops View Post
    Have they resolved the burn in problem with OLED's?
    Not that I know of. To my knowledge, it's no worse than a current plasma; you almost have to be trying deliberately to cause burn-in.

    If memory serves, there was a lengthy thread at AVS with pics showing it. There was some question though whether the burn-in from static pictures constituted abuse. Maybe lingyi can elaborate (or correct me).
    The latest Plasma's TV's don't have BURN-IN anymore and they haven't had it now for quite sometime. Still most people are misinformed at what is commonly minterpreted as Burn-In, but in reality is called IMAGE-RETENTION. Which if you leave the TV on a static image like a dvd menu say for an hour or more, you will get. But this takes about a minute or less to fully dissipate from the Phosphorus and leaves no lasting effects or damage. The same is true of the OLED's which act in a similar fashion.

    Here's a Quote about the latest OLED tech from LG:
    "We can also shoot down concerns about retention and burn-in on LG’ OLED TVs. LG’s TV had no problems in this area, even after prolonged PC use. At several points in time have even we used LG’s OLED TVs as a PC monitor. LG’s 15-inch OLED TV that was released some years ago serves as our secondary PC monitor for almost a month.
    Source: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1400497729


    PLASMA CELL
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    Last edited by AlaskanAVphile; 8th Sep 2014 at 23:09.
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    ansi
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