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  1. Hi all,

    My first post here. I've been trying to crack this for a while and still can't get it. Many threads & forums later, I'm still not 100% on the process and thought I would ask here.

    What I'm trying to do is take a 720p file and convert it for Blu-ray authoring with Tmpgenc Authoring Works 5. As many of you know, this program isn't too great for re-encoding. The problem is, these files are 29.97fps and I need them to be 59.94. Basically, I have a few dozen similar files, and I'm trying to figure out the best starting point for tackling all of them (hell, at least one of them). I tried a full re-encode in Adobe Premiere but had sound sync issues. A full re-encode would have been an absolute last resort anyway.

    I've tried using x264Gui and ended up with a compliant file, but at half the expected length, thus the frames need to be doubled.

    I've attached two screenshots. "original.jpg" has the specifications for the original file, and "test.jpg" has the specifications for the (wrong but compliant) output file that is the wrong length.

    The code I used is as follows:
    x264.exe --pass 1 --bitrate 4500 --acodec copy --preset superfast --tune film --bluray-compat --keyint 60 --vbv-maxrate 23000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --level 4.1 --fps 60000/1001 --force-cfr --open-gop --slices 4 --colorprim "bt709" --transfer "bt709" --colormatrix "bt709" --sar 1:1 --pass 1

    Note that I'm not looking to rescale to 1080p, and I'm trying to minimize quality loss at all costs. I have it set to superfast just for testing purposes.

    Can anyone offer any insight? Am I approaching this the wrong way? I feel like I am 99% there but missing something. I did notice that --keyint had to be fiddled with to get "Max Number of GOP fields" to be satisfied.

    Thanks very much to anyone who can help. I'm open to trying other programs, too. I've just gotten the closest so far with x264Gui.

    Also, the reason I'm doing this is I want my resulting Blu-ray to be x264, not Mpeg-2. I prefer to use Tmpgenc for their authoring features, and am not looking to try other programs for the actual authoring process.
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  2. Member
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    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    ...As many of you know, this program isn't too great for re-encoding.
    Actually, many of us know this specifically NOT to be true.

    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    Also, the reason I'm doing this is I want my resulting Blu-ray to be x264, not Mpeg-2.
    TMPGenc utilizes the x.264 encoder for AVCHD BR.

    That should simplify your process immensely.
    Last edited by smrpix; 7th Jul 2014 at 20:39.
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  3. I am not looking to use Tmpgenc for the re-encoding process. What I meant about it not being too great for re-encoding is it seems to take far longer than other programs. However, other programs aren't giving me exactly the output I'm looking for. I've never had a problem--visually--with the output of the program, don't get me wrong, it's great for that. But the encoding times are a bit extreme.

    Pardon my ignorance, but can you explain what you're suggesting with AVCHD BR?
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    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, but can you explain what you're suggesting with AVCHD BR?
    All I meant was mpeg4 avc.
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  5. I thought you meant use an AVCHD output format, for a second, was confused. I'm aware TMPGEnc utilizes x264 but it doesn't seem to be the most efficient way to do it, when factoring in the encoding times and all. I'd prefer to prep the files in batch via command line or something.
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    So you have hard duplicates ? Another method to use with the 29.97 original is to use --pulldown double instead of duplicating frames. Better for efficiency, but not all muxing engines will like it, I don't use tmpgenc to author but it's easy enough to test

    It detect GOP abnormality with --keyint 60 according to your screenshot? Could be that it doesn't like open GOPs . Try closed GOPs
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  7. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    So you have hard duplicates ? Another method to use with the 29.97 original is to use --pulldown double instead of duplicating frames. Better for efficiency, but not all muxing engines will like it, I don't use tmpgenc to author but it's easy enough to test

    It detect GOP abnormality with --keyint 60 according to your screenshot? Could be that it doesn't like open GOPs . Try closed GOPs
    Not sure what you mean by the GOP abnormality. the screen that shows that the Max GOP Fields value was non-compliant was that of the original file. The output was achieved by trying different numbers down from like --keyint 160 or so. Seemed like a bad/inaccurate method which is why I wondered if that was part of the problem. But I think the only problem is the frame rate. The reason I was pointing it out is I wanted to make sure I wasn't causing a separate problem as I'm slightly ignorant to what it does.

    Regarding the frame rate stuff...
    So if I understand right, would I just add --pulldown double to that command or would I need to replace something with that?

    Thank you for the tips.
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    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    Hi all,

    My first post here.
    Howdy. And welcome, by the way.
    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    What I'm trying to do is take a 720p file and convert it for Blu-ray authoring with Tmpgenc Authoring Works 5. As many of you know, this program isn't too great for re-encoding.
    I'll be the second to disagree with that. One major qualification, though. TMPgenc Authoring Works 5 is OK for simple smart-rendering and uses good MPEG and x264 rendering engines to do it. However, it ain't primarily an encoder. It's not a deintelacer, either. You're asking the authoring program to do something it wasn't designed to do.

    I take it your 720p file is interlaced 29.97fps? If you want 59.94 deinterlaced, you should use something to deinterlace that video. Authoring Works 5 is for authoring. You need something that deinterlaces.
    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    I tried a full re-encode in Adobe Premiere but had sound sync issues. A full re-encode would have been an absolute last resort anyway.
    You might want to re-order your priorities. If you deinterlace an interlaced video, it has to be re-encoded. No exceptions. There are some very good deinterlacers out there. Ever heard of QTGMC or yadif? There are some not-so-great deinterlacers, too. Heard of Adobe or Cyberlink?

    TMPGenc encoders handle BluRay as MPEG2 or MPEG4/AVC(via x264). That would be handled by TMPGenc Video Mastering Works.
    Originally you must have tried to encode BluRay with invalid GOP sizes. If you want to see what 100% BluRay compliant video looks like, try here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533.

    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    So you have hard duplicates ? Another method to use with the 29.97 original is to use --pulldown double instead of duplicating frames. Better for efficiency, but not all muxing engines will like it, I don't use tmpgenc to author but it's easy enough to test

    It detect GOP abnormality with --keyint 60 according to your screenshot? Could be that it doesn't like open GOPs . Try closed GOPs
    TMPGenc expects closed GOPs for smart rendering. Also, it does not expect interlaced video for 1280x720 BluRay authoring.
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  9. Thank you for the welcome.

    Well... TAW 5 is great if you're smart-rendering, for sure. I was referring to anything that comes in as needing a full re-encode. It's slower than any other program, and less versatile, since it's not its main function, as you said. The output is fine, I just don't think it's the most efficient way. I should have been more clear in my initial post. I absolutely LOVE the program, I just want to do certain things elsewhere and learn to understand how/why things should be a certain way.

    I think the original might be interlaced...what threw me off was that it defaulted to progressive in TAW5, leading me to think it was progressive (thus confusing the hell out of me, as you can see).

    So basically, what I'm looking for may be as simple as deinterlacing the video?
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    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    So basically, what I'm looking for may be as simple as deinterlacing the video?
    That's what it amounts to.

    TVMW5 is much faster at encoding. It's also an editor, so the more you ask of it the longer it takes for the whole multi-task job.There are other x264 encoders, as you probably know, but they don't have extra editing features. I use TX264 a lot myself, but I also like to just watch the GUI's.

    Frankly, the Avisynth and QTGMC combo is the best deinterlacer that we mere peasants can afford (free). Yadif is said to run second. Depends on the video.
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    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    That video isn't interlaced.
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    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    Not sure what you mean by the GOP abnormality. the screen that shows that the Max GOP Fields value was non-compliant was that of the original file. The output was achieved by trying different numbers down from like --keyint 160 or so. Seemed like a bad/inaccurate method which is why I wondered if that was part of the problem. But I think the only problem is the frame rate. The reason I was pointing it out is I wanted to make sure I wasn't causing a separate problem as I'm slightly ignorant to what it does.
    I thought that was your re-encoded file, with --keyint 60. For L4.1 , only 1 sec GOP is allowed , so --keyint 60 . What happens with open GOP, is some programs might mix up non IDR frames with IDR frames (basically there are 2 types of "I" frames, only one of them is a true delimiter)

    Regarding the frame rate stuff...
    So if I understand right, would I just add --pulldown double to that command or would I need to replace something with that?
    It's allowed for blu-ray spec , but not all muxers are compatible with it . It's a pulldown flag that essentially says "repeat every frame once". That is feeding a 29.97 file, not a 59.94 file with true duplicates . The benefit is you encode 1/2 the frames, which of course is more efficient compression wise (Higher quality at a given bitrate)

    Originally Posted by LMotlow View Post
    [TMPGenc expects closed GOPs for smart rendering. Also, it does not expect interlaced video for 1280x720 BluRay authoring.
    My impression was he was, just authoring - not smart rendering

    Open GOPs are allowed in BD spec. It's just that some muxers (and even some BD players) have problems with it

    1280x720 cannot be interlaced for BD . In fact, 720p is never interlaced
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  13. Originally Posted by LMotlow View Post
    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    That video isn't interlaced.

    Ok, I didn't think so but was not sure.

    I must seem like a blind man asking for advice on what color to paint his walls... :P
    Learning, but have to start somewhere of course.

    I haven't had a chance to try that initial suggestion of using --pulldown double, but may give it a shot. I feel like a lot of that coding might be making unnecessary changes, such as specifying the bitrate. I would be best off telling it to copy the existing bitrate, no?

    Perhaps I should be using ffmpeg with -vcodec copy.
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  14. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post

    Originally Posted by LMotlow View Post
    [TMPGenc expects closed GOPs for smart rendering. Also, it does not expect interlaced video for 1280x720 BluRay authoring.
    My impression was he was, just authoring - not smart rendering

    Open GOPs are allowed in BD spec. It's just that some muxers (and even some BD players) have problems with it

    1280x720 cannot be interlaced for BD . In fact, 720p is never interlaced
    I'm looking to prepare the files so that when imported into TAW5, they'll smart-render rather than full-render.

    I'll give the double pulldown a shot.. thank you
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    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post

    I'm looking to prepare the files so that when imported into TAW5, they'll smart-render rather than full-render.

    I'll give the double pulldown a shot.. thank you

    I know what you're saying, but "smart-rendering" implies that you're editing the file. Thus parts will be re-encoded when not cut on keyframes, or you interrupt a GOP

    "Authoring" (either DVD or BD) implies no rendering at all, when the asset is already compliant

    The file isn't compliant as-is because of the framerate. So you can't use -vcodec copy with ffmpeg
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    Something doesn't make sense - If it's using x264 to encode as well , how can it be that much slower than other programs ? Perhaps you're using different settings, or something is b0rked with it's x264 implementation
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  17. As for smart rendering, all I know is that when I drop a file into TAW5 and it says smart render--their wording, not mine--it processes in a FRACTION of the time. That is what I am looking for.

    Regardless of its speed or implementation, good or bad, etc, I'm looking to do it externally. I'd even pay for the information, I just don't know who or where to go to!

    Also I did try pulldown double but it still outputs a file that is half the desired length, so I am not sure I even did it right.
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    It's muxer probably doesn't understand the pulldown, but to use double pulldown you need --pulldown double --keyint 30 . Don't force the fps using --fps , the pulldown flags will do that (the frame repeat flag outputs 59.94 signal). It's worth a shot, because this is used with professional muxers

    If tmpgenc doesn't like it, then use closed gops, with hard duplicates (true 60000,1001) .

    How are you feeding x264 ? How were you encoding duplicates before ?
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  19. Doesn't seem to be working, still getting 29.97 in taw5. Is there something I can add to tell it to duplicate the frames?

    I'm using x264Gui.

    I used this, but for some reason, it doesn't seem to actually be taking some of the commands into consideration, as it's outputting a Base profile and a max bitrate of 60,000....

    x264.exe --pass 1 --bitrate 4500 --profile high --preset ultrafast --acodec copy --pulldown double --keyint 30 --vbv-maxrate 23000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --level 4.1

    (see screenshot)
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    Most authoring programs expect elementary streams (not muxed)

    You're missing the blu ray settings , vbv settings, for the last one

    Use the same commandline as the 1st post, erase the --fps , and change --keyint 30, add --pulldown double . I would take out open-gop as well in case tmpgenc doesn't like it (it's not a big deal, minimal gains) .

    Look here for reference. Look at the 720p29.97 example
    https://sites.google.com/site/x264bluray/home/720p-encoding

    I've never heard of x264GUI . Is it this one?
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/x264gui/

    One way to add (hard) duplicate frames is to use avisynth e.g. ChangeFPS(60000,1001) , or Interleave(last,last)

    Notice I'm distinguishing between "hard" and "soft". Hard duplicates are physically encoded into the bitstream. Soft is the pulldown method (signal repeat frame flag)
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  21. Member turk690's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    The code I used is as follows:
    x264.exe --pass 1 --bitrate 4500 --acodec copy --preset superfast --tune film --bluray-compat --keyint 60 --vbv-maxrate 23000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --level 4.1 --fps 60000/1001 --force-cfr --open-gop --slices 4 --colorprim "bt709" --transfer "bt709" --colormatrix "bt709" --sar 1:1 --pass 1
    A good point of reference in using x264 to create blu-ray compliant elementary streams can be found at http://www.x264bluray.com/home/720p-encoding. Since blu-ray specs allow 720 only for 60/59.94p, 50p, and 24p, the script examples show what to enter in case sources are just 30/29.97p or 25p. Poison here has explained that some arguments may duplicate or interfere with each other, like --pulldown and --keyint.
    --open-gop is said to make encoding more efficient by allowing cross-referencing frames from outside the current gop being processed, but can be a major hindrance to using x264-encoded files with some authoring programs. I use encore most of the time, which just about freezes with --open-gop streams, so I simply do not include that argument (which necessarily makes the stream closed gop), which I think you should try with TAW. Closed gops is the x264 default, unless --open-gop argument is deliberately included in the script.
    TAW is ultimately one of the GUIs for x264, but I don't know if one can tell exactly how many of the required x264 arguments may already be implemented internally which means it's not necessary to include them anymore in the added custom script. I mean, deliberately choosing blu-ray templates should have implicitly taken care of --blu-ray-compat, --colorprim "bt709", --transfer "bt709", and --colormatrix "bt709", and adding these arguments to the script may be one reason processing is so slow.
    A good free x264 GUI I use is simple x264 launcher. It is very explicit about which x264 arguments have been taken care of (and whose values can be changed in the GUI) and therefore not necessary to add in the custom script area. It is also frequently updated, which also makes sure the latest stable version of x264 is in its toolset (not sure you can determine exactly what x264 version is in any implementation of TMPGenc, let alone update it).
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  22. --bluray-compat --keyint 30 --pulldown double --vbv-maxrate 23000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --level 4.1 --force-cfr --slices 4 --colorprim "bt709" --transfer "bt709" --colormatrix "bt709" --sar 1:1

    didn't do it unfortunately. Yes, that is the program. Guessing I have to hard duplicate frames.
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  23. Originally Posted by turk690 View Post
    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    The code I used is as follows:
    x264.exe --pass 1 --bitrate 4500 --acodec copy --preset superfast --tune film --bluray-compat --keyint 60 --vbv-maxrate 23000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --level 4.1 --fps 60000/1001 --force-cfr --open-gop --slices 4 --colorprim "bt709" --transfer "bt709" --colormatrix "bt709" --sar 1:1 --pass 1
    A good point of reference in using x264 to create blu-ray compliant elementary streams can be found at http://www.x264bluray.com/home/720p-encoding. Since blu-ray specs allow 720 only for 60/59.94p, 50p, and 24p, the script examples show what to enter in case sources are just 30/29.97p or 25p. Poison here has explained that some arguments may duplicate or interfere with each other, like --pulldown and --keyint.
    --open-gop is said to make encoding more efficient by allowing cross-referencing frames from outside the current gop being processed, but can be a major hindrance to using x264-encoded files with some authoring programs. I use encore most of the time, which just about freezes with --open-gop streams, so I simply do not include that argument (which necessarily makes the stream closed gop), which I think you should try with TAW. Closed gops is the x264 default, unless --open-gop argument is deliberately included in the script.
    TAW is ultimately one of the GUIs for x264, but I don't know if one can tell exactly how many of the required x264 arguments may already be implemented internally which means it's not necessary to include them anymore in the added custom script. I mean, deliberately choosing blu-ray templates should have implicitly taken care of --blu-ray-compat, --colorprim "bt709", --transfer "bt709", and --colormatrix "bt709", and adding these arguments to the script may be one reason processing is so slow.
    A good free x264 GUI I use is simple x264 launcher. It is very explicit about which x264 arguments have been taken care of (and whose values can be changed in the GUI) and therefore not necessary to add in the custom script area. It is also frequently updated, which also makes sure the latest stable version of x264 is in its toolset (not sure you can determine exactly what x264 version is in any implementation of TMPGenc, let alone update it).
    Actually, that first link is where I got the foundation of my initial code, and I modified it from there on. I'll give Simple X264 a try. I was just looking into Avanti but it wasn't allowing me to do 59.97 fps--it kept reverting to 'source.' What I don't understand is this.. if 720p30 isn't blu-ray compliant, why does it seem like so many programs aren't allowing me to convert to 60? I ran into this elsewhere--can't remember where, but I had an encoding option that wouldn't allow me to change the framerate to that. Didn't make any sense to me. I would have assumed that "Blu-ray compliant" would be a standard profile to select in any of these programs, but it doesn't seem to be the case.
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  24. Member turk690's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    What I don't understand is this.. if 720p30 isn't blu-ray compliant, why does it seem like so many programs aren't allowing me to convert to 60?
    Those programs may be doing so on their own without indicating so, or indicating only in a confusing or cryptic manner, or converting it to 60 in a way that may actually remove blu-ray compliance.
    Simple x264 launcher is explicit about which arguments it allows to be included in the custom area and as the encoding proceeds each step is echoed and you can monitor them so you know exactly what is going on. In case the authoring program declares the resulting file is not blu-ray compliant later on, without closing the instance of simple x264 used to encode the stream, the encoding progress can help pinpoint out what may be wrong.
    You are pretty much allowed to put arguments in simple x264 custom area, but even some of those taken from http://www.x264bluray.com/ can create some streams with unexpected characteristics, albeit blu-ray compliant per se. An example is the --open-gop thing. Another is the whole business of encoding blu-ray compliant SD streams (since MPEG4 is already more efficient than MPEG2, it follows maximum bitrates lower than that prescribed there (8000) can be used for same quality).
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  25. OK, I actually like this program a bit more than x264gui. But I'm still running around in circles here.

    IS this program capable of hard-doubling frames? pulldown double is not working. It's also giving me the wrong "Entropy coding" value. (Taw looks for CABAC, file is CAVLC.)

    The current coding:

    --bluray-compat --vbv-maxrate 23000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --level 4.1 --keyint 30 --open-gop --slices 4 --pulldown double --colorprim "bt709" --transfer "bt709" --colormatrix "bt709" --sar 1:1
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  26. Member turk690's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LIBERT4D View Post
    --bluray-compat --vbv-maxrate 23000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --level 4.1 --keyint 30 --open-gop --slices 4 --pulldown double --colorprim "bt709" --transfer "bt709" --colormatrix "bt709" --sar 1:1
    This script assumes you have a progressive 29.97p stream to begin with (not interlaced, or flagged as such). I can say to change to --keyint 60 and remove --pulldown double, but I don't know what effect it would have (I can't tell if --pulldown double actually hard-codes and duplicates the frames (reflected in a larger filesize after encoding), or maintains it as is and just sets a flag). What I would do at this point is to inspect the source files with mediainfo, then write an avisynth script to actually process it to 60p or 59.95p (if it were not) before sending to x264. simple x264 in fact behaves even better with *.avs scripts, it seems. You would have to install avisynth beforehand, v2.58 (avoid 2.60 and 64bit variants for now). And remove that pesky --open-gop argument.
    I would say, x264 is capable of honoring legitimate arguments added in the script suffixes. The other question to ask is: is TAW, for one, capable of recognizing them?
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  27. The source IS progressive.

    I have a feeling I should just look into VMW5... giving the trial a shot as we speak.
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  28. Ok, I've got a compliant, 100% working format profile thanks to TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5. Now my one final question is...

    What's the best way to go about selecting bitrate settings? I want want absolutely minimal quality loss if possible, but without padding the files TOO much. I figure setting it higher than the original bitrate would be a good practice, within reason. Bitrate seems to be ~4300-4500kbps, but if I set the average bitrate at even 6000, it doesn't look as good as it should. (Unless my eyes are playing tricks on me...)

    I just don't want to botch all of these and have the processing done for nothing.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by LIBERT4D; 8th Jul 2014 at 07:23.
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    TVMW5 is pretty nice. It's designed for easy use, but you can get into advanced options. I note that in some respects it's rather strict. If you specify some established standard output like BDMV, AVCHD for memory/disc, etc., it forces you into certain options that ensure compatibility. If you don't specify it'll encode whatever you say, within reason. TMPGenc keeps adding features to their stuff, more like scaled-down conveniences as opposed to how can use those extras with specialized apps. I use it just as an encoder. With lossless input you can cut and go crazy, but remember that it's not a smart rendering app.

    I played with your posted video last night, used Avisynth to get doubled frames. Looks like that video was set up for PC only. TVMW5 will let you encode that as 29.97 progressive MP4, mkv, etc. But if you ask it for something like BDMV output, it won't allow it (non-compliant structure, frame rate, GOP, etc.). As "real" 720p at 59.94fps input it encoded the modded video as standard BDMV MPEG4, no problem.
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