VideoHelp Forum
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 24 of 24
Thread
  1. I have my setup to archive my old VHS tapes by recording them through my capture card. I want to encode them using x264 in a mkv container because I think that would have the best outcome in quality. I'm comfortable with StaxRip as an encoder, but I'm wondering if anyone here has a good template for StaxRip for archiving old VHS quality captures. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
    Quote Quote  
  2. Member hech54's Avatar
    Join Date: Jul 2001
    Location: Yank in Europe
    Search Comp PM
    Without knowing what video codec was used during the original capture(or any other specs for that matter), I don't know how you expect to get any kind of qualified answer.
    Quote Quote  
  3. Originally Posted by hech54 View Post
    Without knowing what video codec was used during the original capture(or any other specs for that matter), I don't know how you expect to get any kind of qualified answer.
    Motion JPEG at 29.970 fps.
    Quote Quote  
  4. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2006
    Location: Toronto Canada
    Search Comp PM
    VHS is a chaotic format, and will vary per capture, even within each capture. Just like regular video, but much worse.

    Having said that, I will highly recommend you use an x264 CRF value in your settings for StaxRip. Many other settings are taste, and don't need special adjustment for VHS IMO (but should use high profile features like cabac, at least 3 b-frames and experiment with deblocking, etc. Also I would choose --tune film if available in StaxRip).

    You may also want to apply some sort of denoising beforehand for VHS video. This is important if wishing to keep the bitrate down using a highly compressed format like x264.

    Keep in mind though, using x264 in an MKV container will not be the best quality as Source, but only a good delivery (playback) solution for good quality at lower bitrates. I would recommend you keep the Motion JPEG as your Source, and archive it, regardless of what you do after. This is the Source you will want to work from in case you wish another format down the road.
    Last edited by PuzZLeR; 7th Jul 2014 at 08:51.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
    Quote Quote  
  5. Originally Posted by PuzZLeR View Post
    VHS is a chaotic format, and will vary per capture, even within each capture. Just like regular video, but much worse.

    Having said that, I will highly recommend you use an x264 CRF value in your settings for StaxRip. Many other settings are taste, and don't need special adjustment for VHS IMO (but should use high profile features like cabac, at least 3 b-frames and experiment with deblocking, etc. Also I would choose --tune film if available in StaxRip).

    You may also want to apply some sort of denoising beforehand for VHS video. This is important if wishing to keep the bitrate down using a highly compressed format like x264.

    Keep in mind though, using x264 in an MKV container will not be the best quality as Source, but only a good delivery (playback) solution for good quality at lower bitrates. I would recommend you keep the Motion JPEG as your Source, and archive it, regardless of what you do after. This is the Source you will want to work from in case you wish another format down the road.
    The thing is, the Motion JPEG files that are created are huge. Look at this MediaInfo:

    General
    Complete name : Untitled 20.avi
    Format : AVI
    Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
    Format profile : OpenDML
    File size : 24.1 GiB
    Duration : 1h 7mn
    Overall bit rate : 50.7 Mbps

    Video
    ID : 0
    Format : JPEG
    Codec ID : MJPG
    Duration : 1h 7mn
    Bit rate : 49.1 Mbps
    Width : 720 pixels
    Height : 486 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 3:2
    Frame rate : 29.970 fps
    Standard : NTSC
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Interlaced
    Scan order : Top Field First
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 4.684
    Stream size : 23.3 GiB (97%)

    That's what the Blackmagic Intensity Pro record to with Blackmagic Media Express. Tell me that's not insane.
    Quote Quote  
  6. Okay, it's not insane. But what does all that have to do with PuzZLer's suggestions? That the size is too large to archive? So don't. Or burn it to a Blu-Ray disc.
    Quote Quote  
  7. Yes, the files are too big to archive, but the point is VHS recordings shouldn't be that high to begin with. 50 MB/s, c'mon, a typical HDTV stream is like 14-16 MB/s, so this should be less than 10 MB/s. There's no reason the archiving should be that big, and encoding with x264 CRF would bring the size down dramatically with the right template. I'm not gonna waste space or blu-ray discs to store these outrageously sized recordings.
    Quote Quote  
  8. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2008
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    Why don't you convert it to mpeg-2 and make a DVD?

    Could you provide a 10 second sample of the source?

    The source appears to be about 6MB per second. Not too bad for mjpeg.
    Last edited by davexnet; 7th Jul 2014 at 23:40.
    Quote Quote  
  9. Originally Posted by BrettNYC View Post
    50 MB/s, c'mon, a typical HDTV stream is like 14-16 MB/s...
    And they don't use MJPEG either. The idea is to capture using a lossless (or nearly so) codec so you can filter and/or edit it before bringing the size down to your final format.
    I'm not gonna waste space or blu-ray discs to store these outrageously sized recordings.
    So don't. If you have the option to capture using a more lossy codec, next time do so.
    Quote Quote  
  10. Originally Posted by davexnet View Post
    Why don't you convert it to mpeg-2 and make a DVD?

    Could you provide a 10 second sample of the source?

    The source appears to be about 6MB per second. Not too bad for mjpeg.
    So everyone here is going to suggest that I keep the raws and not encode to x264? I thought that was the big thing nowadays that it can encode to near original quality with good file size if you do the template right. For MJPEG of a VHS, that file size is far from necessary.

    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Originally Posted by BrettNYC View Post
    50 MB/s, c'mon, a typical HDTV stream is like 14-16 MB/s...
    And they don't use MJPEG either. The idea is to capture using a lossless (or nearly so) codec so you can filter and/or edit it before bringing the size down to your final format.
    I'm not gonna waste space or blu-ray discs to store these outrageously sized recordings.
    So don't. If you have the option to capture using a more lossy codec, next time do so.
    I'm using Blackmagic Media Express to capture from my Blackmagic Intensity Pro. The software gives me two options to record, AVI Motion JPEG or AVI 8 bit YUV which is like a 50% bigger file size. I haven't captured the VHSes yet as that MediaInfo was a sample from one of them, but if you can suggest me a program that will record my Intensity Pro (somewhat lossless) to a much more reasonable format and size, I'm open to listen.
    Quote Quote  
  11. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2008
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    I dont understand where 50MB per second is coming from.
    The mediainfo report states 49 mbits. Isn't that roughly 6 M Bytes?

    On the other hand, for comparison, uncompressed RGB video at 720x484 appears to be ~ 201 mbits per second.
    Quote Quote  
  12. Originally Posted by BrettNYC View Post
    ...but if you can suggest me a program that will record my Intensity Pro (somewhat lossless) to a much more reasonable format and size, I'm open to listen.
    I don't know. I don't use that card, but it seems to me you'd could have figured out what choices were available for capping before you bought it. I capture lossless myself and the sizes are about the same as yours for 720x480. The only difference is I don't complain about it.

    So everyone here is going to suggest that I keep the raws and not encode to x264?
    Did anyone suggest that? Not I. I encode my projects for DVD and delete the capture AVI when all done.
    Quote Quote  
  13. Originally Posted by davexnet View Post
    I dont understand where 50MB per second is coming from.
    The mediainfo report states 49 mbits. Isn't that roughly 6 M Bytes?

    On the other hand, for comparison, uncompressed RGB video at 720x484 appears to be ~ 201 mbits per second.
    Whatever it technically is, it's still high and still too high for VHS quality recordings and not worth the space to archive like that.

    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Originally Posted by BrettNYC View Post
    ...but if you can suggest me a program that will record my Intensity Pro (somewhat lossless) to a much more reasonable format and size, I'm open to listen.
    I don't know. I don't use that card, but it seems to me you'd could have figured out what choices were available for capping before you bought it. I capture lossless myself and the sizes are about the same as yours for 720x480. The only difference is I don't complain about it.

    So everyone here is going to suggest that I keep the raws and not encode to x264?
    Did anyone suggest that? Not I. I encode my projects for DVD and delete the capture AVI when all done.
    Alright, then can you help me with a good template for encoding VHS recordings with StaxRip?
    Quote Quote  
  14. Originally Posted by BrettNYC View Post
    Alright, then can you help me with a good template for encoding VHS recordings with StaxRip?
    I don't use StaxRip for MKV/MP4 encodes, sorry. However, PuzZLer already gave some tips in Post #4. When encoding MP4s (for upload to YouTube, for example), I will have already done all the filtering and have a lossless AVI sent to the encoder. I don't use any 'templates'. Others do it differently.
    Quote Quote  
  15. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2006
    Location: Toronto Canada
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by BrettNYC
    So everyone here is going to suggest that I keep the raws and not encode to x264? I thought that was the big thing nowadays that it can encode to near original quality with good file size if you do the template right. For MJPEG of a VHS, that file size is far from necessary.
    We're confusing you with a)acquisition and archiving and b)delivery and playback.

    What you use to capture is a totally different science, and many will suggest lossless, or other huge files for this, as they are better designed for the task, and retain the most quality at the capture level, and should be using even if you plan to delete them after encoding.

    Capture and archive files are rarely meant to be the "viewing" files. They are typically encoded to playback formats, and if archiving them, they are typically put aside in secured storage.

    What you use for delivery - the playback method - is purely choice, and what works for you and your system you wish to view this on. Using x264 and MKV is a good idea if it works for you as Manono chooses DvD for reasons of his own (and with his experience, I bet his DvD productions look almost like, maybe even better than, the lossless format).

    What I was suggesting to you is that using x264/MKV is fine as a delivery method, but not a viable archive. And it's only really a "current" format. If you wish to change delivery/playback methods down the road, and you may, x264/MKV files are not a good (re-)start.

    Yeah, I know, the archive files are huge, but, is it really a problem when you can now get a 4TB drive, and backup, dirt cheap? Also, physical space is not an issue when I personally am able to store hundreds of hours of VHS content per drive using huge lossless AVI files.

    It's your choice, but ponder first: How important are these memories, and every vital detail, to you?
    I hate VHS. I always did.
    Quote Quote  
  16. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2006
    Location: Toronto Canada
    Search Comp PM
    Interesting how this thread touches upon two of my most fundamental axioms (underlined) that have applied so much peace of mind into this hobby for me, so I share.

    1-If you keep the Source (or digital equivalent from tape), it doesn't matter what format you encode to for playback - DivX, DvD, H.264, etc - as long as it works for you, and your current system. You can always change down the road with best possible results if you've archived the Source.

    2-Don't worry about settings, bitrate, zones, templates, yaddy-yah, too much when encoding for a playback method, or even the filesize, etc, or even make individual adjustments per Source. Instead of that, just decide the quality you want, and use quality based encoding (in one pass), such as CRF in this case, and everything else is quite secondary and really only taste.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
    Quote Quote  
  17. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2008
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    If the content is important and irreplaceable, keep what you have. Previously, I'd captured family video to mjpeg or huffy,
    then converted to mpeg-2 (DVD) and a much smaller de-interlaced xvid file for keeping on the PC.
    Then I deleted the captured source file. But I still have the original tapes, and they're in good condition.
    (as long as my hi-8 camera keeps working!)
    Quote Quote  
  18. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2006
    Location: Toronto Canada
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by davexnet View Post
    If the content is important and irreplaceable, keep what you have. Previously, I'd captured family video to mjpeg or huffy,
    then converted to mpeg-2 (DVD) and a much smaller de-interlaced xvid file for keeping on the PC.
    Then I deleted the captured source file. But I still have the original tapes, and they're in good condition.
    (as long as my hi-8 camera keeps working!)
    I agree the tape is the Ultimate Source in this case. However, if you wish to dispose of the tapes themselves (which I do in most cases except the most fundamental irreplaceable family vidz), then I strongly suggest you keep the (raw or edited/processed) HuffYUV/MJPEG/etc file you've used to capture.

    I plan to dispose of at least 90% of my tapes when done. Lossless captures and archives (from good hardware/methods) give me that confidence to do so.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
    Quote Quote  
  19. I'm looking to digitize my VHSes to a reasonable size format in good quality (this is where x264 mkv comes into play) and store it on a hard drive. A lot of the VHSes aren't family memories, they're stuff recorded from TV as well as some old retail VHSes. I am looking to dispose of them once they're digitized since they're slowly fading out anyway, but its not the utmost important that I keep the source. Any quality close to what is on the tape in a reasonable format is what I want. That's why encoding to me made sense. I would just keep the source and screw the encoding if it recorded to something that wasn't outrageously sized.
    Quote Quote  
  20. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2006
    Location: Toronto Canada
    Search Comp PM
    Yes, I agree it's outrageously sized, but reasonably stored on today's HDDs if precious enough.

    That was the fundamental question - how important were they to you? If they're not family vidz, or just viewing material that you'd like to have, but don't care for the highest quality, then fine, go ahead and use x264/MKV if the size is a pain for you. Although I would do it differently, I can relate.

    I don't have a template for you, but I would suggest you use a CRF value. Let it decide how much bitrate it needs since VHS is so chaotic. (But try and denoise first, otherwise the bitrate will balloon and the benefit of using a high compression format will lose alot of benefit.)

    As an aside, if you're looking for a reasonable compromise, almost like lossless, but a file size much smaller, then you can encode to DV with the Cedocida codec and use this as your archive. This is about ~13GB/hr and the quality is only a bit less than lossless. Still big, but much more manageable. (This is what I use for my - meh - not so precious stuff.) But if this is still too big for your taste, I understand. Just a suggestion.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
    Quote Quote  
  21. Member themaster1's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2006
    Location: France
    Search Comp PM
    Here is a template for you: http://uptobox.com/6mr57ak48vjr

    You will have to change the colorprim and colormatrix though; change them to bt470m (ntsc) or bt470bg (pal))
    Quote Quote  
  22. Originally Posted by themaster1 View Post
    Here is a template for you: http://uptobox.com/6mr57ak48vjr

    You will have to change the colorprim and colormatrix though; change them to bt470m (ntsc) or bt470bg (pal))
    The StaxRip templates I have are .rip files. The file you uploaded is a .srp file. Does that work the same way? Just put it in the Templates folder and StaxRip reads it?
    Quote Quote  
  23. Member themaster1's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2006
    Location: France
    Search Comp PM
    You go to edit profiles > import and that should do it
    Quote Quote  
  24. Originally Posted by themaster1 View Post
    You go to edit profiles > import and that should do it
    Oh, its a profile, not a template. Okay, Thanks.
    Quote Quote