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  1. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2014
    Location: USA
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    Using VideoPad Professional V3.02

    We made a movie and began editing in VideoPad. When we were mostly finished with the video we rendered a copy as an avi which I then put on another computer in order to do soundtrack work. It was a clean, sharp copy.

    We went back to the original VideoPad project, added the music, titles and credits (made in Windows Movie Maker) and tried to render the complete movie again. No matter what settings I use the rendered copy is now poor quality...pixelated and blurry. THe quality is consistent all the way thru...titles, movie, credits. The sound is fine.

    We tried burning direct to DVD, avi files with just about every setting we could try, mp4, wmv...all come out poorly. I made a new project with just a couple video clips we used in the movie and they converted fine, but when put in with the whole movie project they are bad again.

    Is it because of the size of the whole project...is there a limit to what VideoPad will render well? That doesn't seem logical to me but being a 'newbie' I don't know.

    Any further info you need to help just ask, and I appreciate any helpful replies in advance!
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  2. The lower the bitrate the lower the quality, and the more you try to fit on a disc the lower the quality will potentially be because a disc can only hold so much (the longer the video, the lower the bitrate would need to be for it to fit etc). Having said that, different videos require different bitrates in order to compress to a similar quality, so it also depends how hard the video itself is to compress.

    We tried burning direct to DVD, avi files with just about every setting we could try, mp4, wmv...all come out poorly. I made a new project with just a couple video clips we used in the movie and they converted fine, but when put in with the whole movie project they are bad again.
    I've not used VideoPad. Are you burning video directly to a DVD video disc (creating video DVDs) or are you burning AVIs/MP4s etc to disc as you would any other data file?

    It sounds like one way or another you're compressing the video too much.... whether it be squishing it into too small an AVI/MP4 or burning too much to a disc etc.
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  3. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2014
    Location: USA
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    Hello hello_hello,

    Thank you for replying and trying to help! The first rendering (that looked great) we converted to avi just saving on the computer's hard disk, then I transfered it to the other computer on an SD card. The final movie we first tried burning directly to video DVD and that came out bad (not only blurry but cropped on all four sides as well). So for our attempts to create avi and other computer video files we just rendered to hard drive like the first time...while the results were somewhat better than the DVD they were still not good.

    It is a short movie...slightly under 5 minutes overall so I can't see it being a size/space issue. The good version was only 22.3 Mb. The poor versions range from 50Mb to 190Mb, depending on the settings I used. The largest avi file (the 190mb) is the last one I tried. By then I dug as deep as I could into the files and found a MediaInfo file that gave me a lot of stats for the videos. I tried to match everything I had control over to what worked the first time. The final numbers on the largest file are much higher than even the clear copy, but the video looks the same as the smaller avi files with lower bitrates. The bitrates as shown on the MediaInfo files are: Good video - (Bitrate 873 Kbps, Overall Bit Rate 1021), Poor avi (190mb) video - (Bitrate 5989 Kbps, Overall Bit Rate 6135Kbps). I don't see where I'd have specific control over the bitrate when setting up the rendering, just general size, proportion and quality settings (YouTube, TV NTSC, TV Pal, etc...)

    Just a guess...I'm wondering if, since the clear copy used only similar avi files from the video camera (a hand-held Panasonic is all we have so far) and the final copy had different types of files to render (avi, wmv for the titles, and audiofiles) if the program could not convert them together and get a good result and used some sort of least common denominator to make it consistent (consistently poor!). If so how does one get around that? The program is built to work with them all and use them in the same project, so I'd think that would be addressed and solveable if an issue.

    I can post the full MediaInfo files if any more info would help but don't want to overload here if you have any ideas with what I've given here. Thanks again!
    Last edited by ABLANG; 30th Jun 2014 at 09:11.
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  4. Member hech54's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ABLANG View Post
    Hello hello_hello,

    Thank you for replying and trying to help! The first rendering (that looked great) we converted to avi just saving on the computer's hard disk, then I transfered it to the other computer on an SD card.
    What KIND of avi?
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  5. Originally Posted by hech54 View Post
    What KIND of avi?
    Yeah, that caught my eye too. Also that (unfortunately) they used WMM.

    Please post a sample of the finished work so we can study it. 10 seconds or so of a scene with steady motion. Maybe a similar 10 seconds from the nicer looking source AVI.
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  6. Member
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    Well, I guess my 'newbie' is showing here, I did not know there were different KINDS of avi (I understand different resolutions and bitrates and such). So I'm not sure how to answer that. There is a codec id of H264, but that is the same for all examples, good and bad. Here is the same shot in the good (from the rough cut) and the best version I came up with of the final movie (audio removed).

    She used WMM this time because that was the easiest way to make titles and credits since VideoPad doesn't have that feature. If you have alternate suggestions for that we might be able to change them out. We have a deadline on this so we had to work with what we have...in the near future we plan on upgrading computer and software and hopefully eliminate issues like this. Meanwhile we climb the learning curve.
    Attached Files
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  7. Originally Posted by ABLANG View Post
    The bitrates as shown on the MediaInfo files are: Good video - (Bitrate 873 Kbps, Overall Bit Rate 1021), Poor avi (190mb) video - (Bitrate 5989 Kbps, Overall Bit Rate 6135Kbps)
    That's certainly not true. You should be able to tell for yourself quite easily. The forum blurry.avi is less than half the filesize of the forum clean.avi and only slightly shorter. I get average bitrate figures of 8370 kbps for blurry and 13527 kbps for clean with the uploaded samples. By doing it properly I think you should be able to get decent results at much lower final bitrates. I agree, though, that the blurry one looks like crap. But then, I've never used (and never will use) Windows Movie Maker.

    H264 video isn't usually put inside of AVI. Anyway, if performing intermediate steps, they're usually done using lossless AVI, before rendering out to the final format. I'd say it's a combination of using a lossy video codec and lower bitrates, along with the software programs you're using to make the video.

    I take it this isn't for any serious purpose, but maybe for YouTube or some such streaming service?
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  8. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2012
    Location: USA
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    Originally Posted by ABLANG View Post
    She used WMM this time because that was the easiest way to make titles and credits since VideoPad doesn't have that feature.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clsmu3NHfAI Tutorial on how to add Titles with VideoPad Video Editor
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  9. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2014
    Location: USA
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    Thx for pointing out the title option, smrpix, I may have to remake the title and credit sequences and see if that helps. Not knowing how all the stats effect everything (yet) I'm not convinced it is just bitrate, since I have files from different tries of roughly 22mgb, 50mgb and 190mgb and they all look pretty much the same on the computer monitor. Next time I'll do a little more preproduction planning and specifying to try to get everything on the same page, but meanwhile I have to try to save this one. It is due tomorrow (fortunately I allowed a little time for unexpected problems but am running out of that) for a local "Know Poe" contest and will be shown at a local cinema before an old Vincent Price movie of one of Edgar Allan Poe's stories. So the clearer the better since blowing it up that big will blur it up enough even if it looks clean on the small screen.

    Still trying everything else I can think of with what I have and will follow any more suggestions.
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  10. Member
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    OK I've tried just about everything I can think of. Made sure that all my clips were the exact same mp4 format (a couple had been different since I did some special effects editing on a them), redid titles in VideoPad...rendered to both avi and mp4 but still bad results. I still don't understand why the clips on their own look ok when rendered but when put in the movie they don't. The only difference (besides multiple clips so file size) is added audio files. If the one or two together didn't render I'd think it was all because of how we shot it but since those look good there is still something else in the process.
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  11. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2012
    Location: USA
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    You still haven't told us

    Originally Posted by hech54 View Post
    What KIND of avi?
    We still don't know if your source was SD or HD, --720p, 1080i, 25fps, 30fps, 60fps 50fps, mixed. We still don't know what your project settings are. We still don't know what your export settings are. I bet neither do you. While you're to be commended for trying to use Mediainfo, bitrate is only one factor. Compare the video section side by side and you will find other important information like frame size, frame rate and codec.

    On top of that, NCH VideoPad is not the sharpest knife in the kitchen -- though it certainly appears serviceable. (I say "appears" because few of us use it, favoring better tools.) You may be correct that it is automatically lowering resolution to the lowest common denominator, but SURELY that can be overridden.

    So what is your source, what are you doing with it, and what is your intended target -- do you need to upload, are you delivering on thumb drive....? (A final bitrate of 5-6000 is ok for 1280x720 mp4 video according to YouTube and Vimeo, which would give you a 180mb file. Would something like that suit your needs?)
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  12. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2014
    Location: USA
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    Well, first of all I really appreciate you sticking with me and trying to help my ignorant self. My experience is in audio production so this is a whole new world and a big part of the problem is I don't know what all the factors are in video. At the risk of wearing out my welcome I'll post the entire MediaInfo files for what worked and one of what didn't, where I tried to at least match the frame size and fps rate.

    The original shots were mp4 which the camera defaults to 640x360p (I cannot override this). From what I can find the camera (Panasonic HC-V110) default is 60fps. In my various tries I've used these exact settings, multiples of, defaults detected by VideoPad, H264 and mpg codecs...any combination I could come up with. One thing I don't know is what settings were used originally when we got the good copy (before the soundtrack and titles were added). She just rendered it as an avi with whatever came up and it looked good so we didn't question anything or see any reason to track what we did.


    Here is the Mediainfo for the good clean file I used to make the soundtrack:

    Format : AVI
    Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
    File size : 22.3 MiB
    Duration : 3mn 3s
    Overall bit rate : 1 021 Kbps

    Video
    ID : 0
    Format : AVC
    Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile : High@L3.1
    Format settings, CABAC : Yes
    Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
    Codec ID : H264
    Duration : 3mn 3s
    Bit rate : 873 Kbps
    Width : 854 pixels
    Height : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 16:9
    Frame rate mode : Variable
    Frame rate : 29.970 fps
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Progressive
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.071
    Stream size : 19.1 MiB (86%)
    Writing library : x264 core 125 r2209 68dfb7b
    Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-4 / threads=1 / lookahead_threads=1 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc=crf / mbtree=0 / crf=23.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00

    Audio
    ID : 1
    Format : MPEG Audio
    Format version : Version 1
    Format profile : Layer 3
    Mode : Joint stereo
    Mode extension : MS Stereo
    Codec ID : 55
    Codec ID/Hint : MP3
    Duration : 3mn 3s


    Here is the one for the best avi I came up with:

    Format : AVI
    Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
    File size : 190 MiB
    Duration : 4mn 20s
    Overall bit rate : 6 135 Kbps

    Video
    ID : 0
    Format : AVC
    Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile : High@L3.1
    Format settings, CABAC : Yes
    Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
    Codec ID : H264
    Duration : 4mn 20s
    Bit rate : 5 989 Kbps
    Width : 854 pixels
    Height : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 16:9
    Frame rate mode : Variable
    Frame rate : 29.970 fps
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Progressive
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.487
    Stream size : 186 MiB (98%)
    Writing library : x264 core 125 r2209 68dfb7b
    Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-4 / threads=1 / lookahead_threads=1 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc=crf / mbtree=0 / crf=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00

    Audio
    ID : 1
    Format : MPEG Audio
    Format version : Version 1
    Format profile : Layer 3
    Mode : Joint stereo
    Mode extension : MS Stereo
    Codec ID : 55
    Codec ID/Hint : MP3
    Duration : 4mn 20s
    Source duration : 4mn 20s
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 128 Kbps
    Channel count : 2 channels
    Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Stream size : 3.97 MiB (2%)
    Alignment : Split accross interleaves
    Interleave, duration : 26 ms (0.78 video frame)
    Writing library : LAME3.97
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  13. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2014
    Location: USA
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    We need to turn it in on disc. Originally we thought it had to be an avi which is why we tried those first, but they then said they could use mp4 as well, so I tried those too. It will be shown in a cinema so a widescreen format would be great but at this point I'd rather have it clear in a different ratio if I have to...whatever I can get to look good.
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  14. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2012
    Location: USA
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    Originally Posted by ABLANG View Post
    The original shots were mp4 which the camera defaults to 640x360p (I cannot override this). From what I can find the camera (Panasonic HC-V110) default is 60fps.
    The camera shoots in 1080i, it is a shame you missed that because you have restricted yourself to a severely limited mode. 640x360 is not even standard def. (To put it roughly in audio terms, your original is an 11.025Hz mp3.)

    Is it safe to assume that after you did the audio mix you married the mixed audio on the NCH timeline to the original edited picture and then output that combination as your final? Were the NCH settings 640x360 or 854x480? If you used the latter you can at least get sharper titles.

    Originally Posted by ABLANG View Post
    One thing I don't know is what settings were used originally when we got the good copy (before the soundtrack and titles were added). She just rendered it as an avi with whatever came up and it looked good so we didn't question anything or see any reason to track what we did.
    So, you have learned the reason you must track what you did -- to be able to reproduce your results or improve on them.

    Okay,

    an 854x480, 6mbs h.264 file really is about as good as you're going to get, whether its in an avi container or mp4. If you want to boost the bitrate, even double it, no harm if you're delivering on disk as a data file.

    If you want to try your luck at making a spec DVD out of it you can bring your file into AVStoDVD for authoring -- but its more likely to degrade the quality than maintain it.

    The real mistakes in this piece were made on the front end it appears. FWIW you now know a little more for next time.
    Last edited by smrpix; 1st Jul 2014 at 12:02.
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  15. Member
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    Understood across the board. We did do a little more editing to the video portion that I added the soundtrack to but it certainly wasn't a full rebuild. I wish I had seen that she was shooting in mp4 and that we would have used HD, but I did not look at the camera myself, thinking that was her area of expertise (yeah, I'm passing the blame!). The NCH settings were 854x480 in these clips though I did try the other. The one DVD I burned thru VideoPad was awful, worse than any of the computer renderings. I never expected to improve the quality from what we shot it at, but we aren't even getting close to the original mp4 scenes (as you see from the clips above).

    The good news is that she is happy overall with it, even blurry. The writing is the strongest part of the project and the story is being told, and we've both learned plenty to build on for the next project. In school she uses FinalCutPro but we didn't have access to it now...may have to buy it for next time (would need to upgrade computer too), but need to research cameras and equipment as well. When this is all over I'll see if we can't get it on YouTube so you can see what all the commotion is about.
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  16. Member
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    Originally Posted by ABLANG View Post
    I added the soundtrack to but it certainly wasn't a full rebuild.
    No full rebuild required, just replace the old audio with the mixed track.

    Originally Posted by ABLANG View Post
    The writing is the strongest part of the project and the story is being told,
    At the end of the day that's the most important thing... (not what this site's about though )

    Originally Posted by ABLANG View Post
    When this is all over I'll see if we can't get it on YouTube so you can see what all the commotion is about.
    You have my curiosity.

    Best of luck.
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