VideoHelp Forum
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 27 of 27
Thread
  1. I have everything looking great and working fine, theres just the dot crawl to deal with.

    As soon as I add Checkmate(tthr2=0) before the TIVTC, ghosting becomes noticeable when you go through one frame at a time and examine it. When I take checkmate back off, the ghosting is once again gone.

    I have to get rid of the dot crawl somehow but this checkmate it messing it up. I played with all the settings in checkmate. thr=1 theres no ghosting but it adds alot of artifacts and makes lines look bad instead of smooth like they were.


    I have an older DVD set of the same series and when I use checkmate on it, ghosting doesn't seem to appear. Why would it be appearing in the newer set with better looking video?
    Quote Quote  
  2. Ghosting is often a problem with checkmate. Try starting with this:

    Code:
    CheckMate(thr=10, max=20, tthr2=0)
    Step up tthr2 until it starts the ghosting, then back down one.

    Dot crawl is a consequence of recording analog composite video.
    Quote Quote  
  3. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Ghosting is often a problem with checkmate. Try starting with this:

    Code:
    CheckMate(thr=10, max=20, tthr2=0)
    Step up tthr2 until it starts the ghosting, then back down one.

    Dot crawl is a consequence of recording analog composite video.

    It does ghosting with or without the tthr2 in it no matter what number is used after it. I tried every setting and the only one that has any effect on the ghosting is the thr=1 it can go up to thr=3 but then the dot crawl isnt handled well enough and its still visible.
    Last edited by killerteengohan; 15th Jun 2014 at 00:01.
    Quote Quote  
  4. Would a sample video and the script Im using help?


    EDIT: I just used DGIndex to put out a 5 second video of the ghosting scene to give you a sample and my script, and when I used the script on that 5 second clip the ghosting isnt there, but when I use it on the full episode, the ghosting is there. I tried a 5 minute clip starting from the beginning of the episode and it still doesnt ghost. Why would the full one have ghosting then?

    Does that mean anything that can possibly help me?
    Last edited by killerteengohan; 15th Jun 2014 at 00:09. Reason: Tried something else
    Quote Quote  
  5. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2012
    Location: Australia
    Search Comp PM
    Not an answer but maybe Trim will help.
    Quote Quote  
  6. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2006
    Location: Toronto Canada
    Search Comp PM
    Checkmate is problematic, and buggy, at best. I've seen those artifacts you're talking about. Don't use it. Even the author (I believe) abandoned it.

    Screw that, and any other so-called dot crawl filter.

    The best way to eliminate dot crawl is to downsize to half the width resolution (try Precise Bilinear), and then back up again to the original resolution (try Lanczos4Resize).
    I hate VHS. I always did.
    Quote Quote  
  7. Originally Posted by ndjamena View Post
    Not an answer but maybe Trim will help.
    I tried trim not long after my last post, that's actually the first thing that came to my mind after noticing the smaller clips didn't ghost. I thought perhaps its was just the amount of frames or the frame the video started on. Sadly trim didn't fix the issue for me though.

    It works perfectly fine in those clips I got from DGIndex though when its not the full episode.


    I thought perhaps make 2 separate clips and then encode both and combine them but thats an annoying amount of work for the amount of episodes I will be wanting to do if it even works.

    I'm still wondering why the clips from the episode don't ghost but the full episode does.

    I also wonder why when I use an older DVD set of the same series, it doesn't ghost either but the new one does. (I want to use the new sets because they never finished releasing the old sets or Id just be using the old ones and not worrying about the ghosting)
    Quote Quote  
  8. Originally Posted by PuzZLeR View Post
    Checkmate is problematic, and buggy, at best. I've seen those artifacts you're talking about. Don't use it. Even the author (I believe) abandoned it.

    Screw that, and any other so-called dot crawl filter.

    The best way to eliminate dot crawl is to downsize to half the width resolution (try Precise Bilinear), and then back up again to the original resolution (try Lanczos4Resize).
    I don't always have trouble with checkmate, its just giving me a pain with this series.

    I'm a bit newer to resizing types other than Lanczos. Is that encoding 2 different times to change the resolution? Can I do that in a single script? and if so how would I do it?
    Quote Quote  
  9. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2006
    Location: Toronto Canada
    Search Comp PM
    Sure. One script should do it.

    Checked your profile. Not sure where you're from - NTSC or PAL land.

    At any rate, let's assume, for the example's purpose, that your source is 720x480.

    Downsize to half the width to 360x480. Then upsize back to 720x480.

    The script (with some sharpening, and upsize layering, added):

    Code:
    Avisource("C:\your source.avi")
    BilinearResize(360,480)
    Lanczos4Resize(512,480)
    Sharpen(0.2,0)
    Lanczos4Resize(720,480)
    Sharpen(0.2,0.0)
    I hate VHS. I always did.
    Quote Quote  
  10. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2012
    Location: Australia
    Search Comp PM
    Did you put trim before or after CheckMate?
    Quote Quote  
  11. Member
    Join Date: May 2014
    Location: Tennessee, US
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by killerteengohan View Post
    Would a sample video and the script Im using help?
    It certainly would. Reading thru all this wild guesswork and generalizing can stay interesting for only so long.
    Quote Quote  
  12. Originally Posted by ndjamena View Post
    Did you put trim before or after CheckMate?
    Trim went at the bottom/end of the entire script
    Quote Quote  
  13. Heres the untouched video sample.

    https://mega.co.nz/#!Btx1jA4R!t46jFn0j1VhwOWmWtueotdEWDfxgu3_g16quzSbAQRY



    I used DGIndex to put out a 5 second video of the ghosting scene to give you a sample and my script, and when I used the script on that 5 second clip the ghosting isn't there, but when I use it on the full episode, the ghosting is there. I tried a 5 minute clip starting from the beginning of the episode and it still doesn't ghost.
    ((So don't expect to see the same issue that I see in the sample clip.))
    Last edited by killerteengohan; 15th Jun 2014 at 08:14.
    Quote Quote  
  14. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2012
    Location: Australia
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by killerteengohan View Post
    Originally Posted by ndjamena View Post
    Did you put trim before or after CheckMate?
    Trim went at the bottom/end of the entire script
    Then Checkmate was working with the entire clip, you need to put trim BEFORE checkmate to limit the frames it has access too, otherwise you're wasting your time.
    Quote Quote  
  15. Originally Posted by ndjamena View Post
    Originally Posted by killerteengohan View Post
    Originally Posted by ndjamena View Post
    Did you put trim before or after CheckMate?
    Trim went at the bottom/end of the entire script
    Then Checkmate was working with the entire clip, you need to put trim BEFORE checkmate to limit the frames it has access too, otherwise you're wasting your time.
    I did what you said and the ghosting didnt stop and something is wrong now.

    The overall length of the video is now 16:36.328 instead of 20:46.370.
    I'm trimming from (0, 29861) but its now saying theres only 23888 frames and the length of the video is shorter.

    Its making the video and audio file different lengths.

    When trim is placed at the bottom of the script, the length is just fine.
    Quote Quote  
  16. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2012
    Location: Australia
    Search Comp PM
    That tells me absolutely nothing until you define exactly how much of the video you trimmed away. As far as I can tell there's a bug in the filter, it doesn't round properly or something and since it's a temporal filter it winds up using the wrong frame for processing, hence the ghosting. A total frame count would be nice, maybe someone can do the math and figure out where it goes wrong. Since no one has the source code for the filter, you can either trim the video or use something else for dotcrawl removal.

    Code:
    AVISOURCE(*.*)
    a = trim(0, last.FrameCount/2).CheckMate()
    b = trim((last.framecount/2)+1, 0).CheckMate()
    a++b
    Quote Quote  
  17. Originally Posted by ndjamena View Post
    That tells me absolutely nothing until you define exactly how much of the video you trimmed away. As far as I can tell there's a bug in the filter, it doesn't round properly or something and since it's a temporal filter it winds up using the wrong frame for processing, hence the ghosting. A total frame count would be nice, maybe someone can do the math and figure out where it goes wrong. Since no one has the source code for the filter, you can either trim the video or use something else for dotcrawl removal.

    Code:
    AVISOURCE(*.*)
    a = trim(0, last.FrameCount/2).CheckMate()
    b = trim((last.framecount/2)+1, 0).CheckMate()
    a++b

    I only trimmed about 22 frames from the end of the video. from 29883 down to to 29861. It shouldn't be 4 minutes less in length.

    I trimmed it differently I guess.
    The trimmer I was using trimmed like this and put it at the bottom of the script. I just moved it above checkmate and then the time changed like mentioned above.

    Code:
    __film = last
    __t0 = __film.trim(0, 29861)
    __t0




    I then went and retyped it out like this and the time seems to be normal again and the ghosting is gone.


    Code:
    Source=DGDecode_mpeg2source("C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Desktop\Yu-Gi-Oh! Cinedigm\Season 1\Disc 1\Episode 1\VTS_01_1.d2v", info=3).ColorMatrix(hints=true, threads=0).tfm(order=1).tdecimate(mode=1,hybrid=1).crop( 18, 4, -6, -2).LanczosResize(640,480)
    
    Clip1=Trim(source, 0, 29861).checkmate(tthr2=0).bifrost().hqdering().LimitedSharpenFaster(ss_x=2.0, ss_y=2.0, strength=160, overshoot=0, undershoot=0, soft=0, edgemode=0)
    
    Return clip1


    I never seen trim done any other way than those 2. Ill try what you typed.
    Last edited by killerteengohan; 15th Jun 2014 at 08:15.
    Quote Quote  
  18. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2012
    Location: Australia
    Search Comp PM
    Since it's a temporal filter, this should remove the possibility of artefacts on the cuts. I could probably get it neater if I could be bothered figuring out the proper math but at least this works.

    Code:
    MYSOURCE("MyFile.Vid")
    a = trim(0, (last.FrameCount/2)-1).CheckMate()
    b = trim((last.framecount/2), 0).CheckMate()
    
    c = trim(0, (last.framecount/4)-1)
    d = trim((last.framecount/4), ((last.framecount/4)*3)-1).CheckMate()
    e = trim(((last.framecount/4)*3), 0)
    
    f = a++b
    g = c++d++e
    
    h = f.trim(0, (f.FrameCount/3)-1)
    i = g.trim(g.FrameCount/3, ((last.FrameCount/3)*2)-1)
    j = f.trim((f.FrameCount/3)*2, 0)
    
    h++i++j
    Quote Quote  
  19. Member
    Join Date: May 2014
    Location: Tennessee, US
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by killerteengohan View Post
    Maybe it's your sample, or maybe it's just me, but I don't see any dot crawl. I do see what looks like hard-telecine combing effects.
    Quote Quote  
  20. I see lots of dot crawl. 4x point resize:

    Name:  dot.png
Views: 64
Size:  59.2 KB
    Quote Quote  
  21. Member
    Join Date: May 2014
    Location: Tennessee, US
    Search Comp PM
    Yep, that could be looked at as dot crawl. Looks more like chroma upsampling error (CUE) to me, but whatever. Resizing blurs it, sharpening brings half of it back. I've seen similar effects with the AVT-8710 TBC. I tried some anti-dot plugins, but little or no effect without killing everything in sight. You don't see this effect in some areas, but you see aliasing.

    I couldn't find the frame you used, but I tried several others. I'll take everyone's word for it, but IMO the cures look worse than the disease. Whatever.
    Quote Quote  
  22. Dot crawl is caused by incomplete removal of the chroma from the luma when splitting a composite signal into chroma and luma components. So it shows most intensely when the chroma signal is very strong -- ie, with highly saturated colors. The OP's video has been through a 2d comb filter which has removed a lot of the dot crawl from still parts of the picture. But it takes a 3d comb filter to remove dot crawl from moving parts of the picture. Further, the video has been MPEG 2 encoded creating DCT ringing artifacts of the dot crawl dots.

    I don't remember exactly what frame my crop was taken from. But it was somewhere between 185 and 194.
    Quote Quote  
  23. Member
    Join Date: May 2014
    Location: Tennessee, US
    Search Comp PM
    Yeah, I can see it that way after your explanation. At first it just looked like old fashioned CUE that I've looked at since my first DVD player years ago. I think I'd settle in this case for partial cleaning -- getting all of it is gonna result in zero video to look at. If what you describe is the story behind this DVD, it just bolsters my belief that when it comes to processing, enough is sometimes too much. Anyway, thanks for the story on this one.
    Quote Quote  
  24. You make it sound like removing dot crawl is so destroying that the video left isn't worth watching.

    I've cleaned up dot crawl alot with checkmate. Yeah it can have its side effects but I don't find it utterly horrible. I was just for the first time having issues with it making ghosting alot more obvious or making it seem like theirs more.

    I think this cleaned up nicely without getting destroyed.


    (Pics Removed from image host)
    Last edited by killerteengohan; 17th Jun 2014 at 09:46.
    Quote Quote  
  25. Member
    Join Date: May 2014
    Location: Tennessee, US
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by killerteengohan View Post
    You make it sound like removing dot crawl is so destroying that the video left isn't worth watching.
    Yep, that does look pretty nice. But try it on something more visually complex than standard anime. The best way to handle dot crawl is to avoid it -- and don't we all wish it was easier done than said, LOL !!
    Last edited by LMotlow; 16th Jun 2014 at 17:11.
    Quote Quote  
  26. I think Id rather it be easier done than said, instead of easier said than done lol
    Quote Quote  
  27. Member
    Join Date: May 2014
    Location: Tennessee, US
    Search Comp PM
    Thanks. Been a long long day at work.
    Quote Quote