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  1. Member
    Join Date: Aug 2011
    Location: Holland, Europe
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    I sourced this 1952 kinescope from a DVD. Considering it's a vintage kinescope the image is quite good. Bu the audio is bad. There's a lot of background noise, and it lacks on high freq.

    Would it be possible to patch the audio up, without re-encoding the picture? And can anyone help?

    This is an excerpt:

    http://files.videohelp.com/u/203833/sample.mpeg

    For the complete kinescope, it's here:

    http://files.videohelp.com/u/203833/Rosemary%20Clooney%20-%20Half%20As%20Much_%20Botch...t.%201952.mpeg

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen shot 2014-06-12 at 21.32.11.png
Views:	86
Size:	1.11 MB
ID:	25694

    I'm on Mac, so I'm afraid I can't do this myself. Correct me if I'm wrong!
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  2. Member
    Join Date: Oct 2004
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    Audacity is free, runs on Mac (and Windows and Linux) and has some filters that might be able to take care of that.
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  3. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2012
    Location: USA
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    The optical tracks on 16mm kinescopes top out at about 8000khz (35mm is slightly higher) so there's not really going to be any high end to enhance. Audacity, as jman suggested, should be able to subtract some of the film noise.
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  4. Member
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    I have Audacity, and with MPEG Streamclip I can extract the audio from the video.

    But I don't know how I can put the audio and video together again. Also, please advise on how Audacity can remove some of the film noise.
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  5. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2007
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    I don't know how I can put the audio and video together again
    There are not as many mac tools available for this; but you should be able to remux the new audio into the old mpg (replacing the old audio) , with avidemux, or ffmpeg (command line)

    In avidemux, set video to copy, audio to copy, output mpeg-ps , audio (top menu) , select track (choose from the dropdown menu to add audio track), and choose the new audio file
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  6. Member
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    Originally Posted by HitTheRoad View Post
    please advise on how Audacity can remove some of the film noise.
    Under effect find noise removal. 2 steps. First you capture a section that is supposed to be silent, then you process the entire clip (or portion of a clip) with that profile. Do not be over-aggressive or you can get flangey noises.
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  7. Member
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    Great!

    Poisondeathray,
    I have avidemux. I didn't know I could use this tool for demuxing purposes.

    smrpix,
    I will try this out.

    Thank you very much! I will get back to you as soon as I've tried this.
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  8. Best I could get in 15 minutes. No noise reduction used (so no odd distortion effects created).
    If any don't like it, I'm not particularly bothered. It was just to pass the time.

    http://files.videohelp.com/u/198336/Rosemary%20Clooney%201952b.wav

    I was experimenting with ocenaudio when this post appeared.
    I used the 31-band Equalizer and a VST de-esser plugin (SPITFISH - by digitalfishphones).
    It still needs cleaning and some spikes taking out.
    Last edited by transporterfan; 12th Jun 2014 at 18:41.
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  9. Member
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    transporterfan,
    Thank you for your help.
    I however can hear no difference, apart from the electronic beeps that have been added (at 5 points in the soundtrack).

    I still have to take a shot at Audacity. I'll let you all know.
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  10. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2008
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    Those electronic beeps are already present; they became obvious when the file is "brightened" in an
    attempt to accentuate the high frequencies of the whole file.
    It is quite a tricky sound to remove using normal tools.

    EDIT - the Sound Forge "repair" option does a reasonable job on those beeps. However, the rest
    of the file doesn't sound much better compared to the original. As soon as you attempt to boost what high
    frequencies there are, you hear how poor the sound really is.
    Last edited by davexnet; 13th Jun 2014 at 19:12.
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  11. Member
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    MPEG Streamclip doesn't seem to do a good demuxing job. The demuxed ac3 audio I get from MPEG Streamclip is not good at all. It's unusable in Audacity.
    Is there other demux software for the Mac?



    Those electronic beeps are already present; they became obvious when the file is "brightened" in an
    attempt to accentuate the high frequencies of the whole file.
    It is quite a tricky sound to remove using normal tools.
    davenext,
    Are you sure the electronic beeps are already there? I've listened very closely to the original file, but I don't hear them.
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  12. You can open the import the audio directly from the MPG file into Audacity if you install the ffmpeg source plugin.

    http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/faq_installation_and_plug_ins.html#ffdown
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  13. Member
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    Thanks to the help of all of you, I managed to demux, alter the audio in Audacity and remux.

    However, I still have to find out how to finetune the noise removal settings. This will take some time.
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  14. Member
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    Originally Posted by HitTheRoad View Post
    MPEG Streamclip doesn't seem to do a good demuxing job. The demuxed ac3 audio I get from MPEG Streamclip is not good at all. It's unusable in Audacity.
    Is there other demux software for the Mac?



    Those electronic beeps are already present; they became obvious when the file is "brightened" in an
    attempt to accentuate the high frequencies of the whole file.
    It is quite a tricky sound to remove using normal tools.
    davenext,
    Are you sure the electronic beeps are already there? I've listened very closely to the original file, but I don't hear them.
    Both transporterfan and my attempts at your file have experienced those noises, so I must assume they're in the source.
    I must say transporterfan's EQ attempt is quite good. Perhaps work from that? I was not able to get such a balanced sound
    in Sound Forge 8 using its EQ tools.
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  15. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2001
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    I'll try my hand in it (audio restoration) at some point, but won't be too soon, so don't hold your breath. Moving to much nicer digs next week and then going to a wedding in Seattle, all while finishing this monster project (so I can finish getting paid). Gonna keep me busy.
    But the challenge interests me.

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  16. Member
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    @Cornucopia,
    I'm looking forward to see the result of your effort.

    @davenet + @ transporterfan,
    Any idea how these electronic beeps got into the soundtrack? Were they already on the DVD? Or did MPEG Streamclip put them in the file while I converted the ripped VOB to MPEG?
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  17. Member
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    Yes it's weird - the electronic beep is there when demuxed and converted to wav . For example there is a noticable one right between the 2 songs at ~2:40. It's not there in the original AC3 audio, or when multiplexed still in the MPG . That suggests it's a decoding issue with AC3=>WAV using ffmpeg / libav libraries . Because when I use NicAC3Source to decode the AC3=>WAV , the beep isn't there . If you're using audacity with the FFMpeg import plugin you will likely have those beeps.

    I didn't check closely for the other beeps, just concentrated on that very noticable one, but there was another one at ~0:25, that isn't there with NicAC3Source, present with FFmpeg decoding

    But what's weird is the same FFPlay version (with FFMpeg) doesn't have the error when playing the multiplexed MPG, or demuxed AC3. Theoretically FFPlay is using the same FFMpeg libraries to decode the AC3 or MPG. No beep. I can't make sense of that observation
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 15th Jun 2014 at 09:24.
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  18. Member
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    Yes , I get those beeps in audacity too, either directly importing the MPG or importing a demuxed AC3, or ffmpeg decoded to WAV. I'm using an old version maybe newer version or newer plugins might not have that issue

    The PC version of MPEGStreamclip can decode it to AIFF without the beeps. Try the MAC version

    If you can't get a clean WAV from the MAC version of MPEGStreamclip, I can upload a NicAC3Source decoded version
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  19. Just copy nearby audio over the beeps.
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  20. Member
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    There's another electronic beep at 0:25.

    The beeps may not be heard in the original file, and only appear after demuxing and exporting from Avidemux. But... why is it this doesn't happen to all AC3's demuxed by Audacity?

    Could it be there's something wrong with the original file after all?

    And if yes, where does the trouble start? Is there something wrong with the DVD? Is there something wrong with the way the DVD was ripped (MacThe Ripper)? Or is there something wrong with the way the VOB was converted to MPG (MPEG Streamclip)?

    Maybe one of you would like to take a look at the original VTS_01_1.vob? I'm uploading it right now.
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  21. Member
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    Yes there are errors in the stream. They coincide temporally with the beeps. If you run the audio through delaycut:
    (windows only)


    ====== PROCESSING LOG ======================
    Time 00:00:25.760; Frame#= 806. Crc2 error SILENCED: read = D1A7; calculated=B1A4
    Time 00:01:09.888; Frame#= 2185. Crc1 error SILENCED: read = 3F15; calculated=86E3
    Time 00:02:40.640; Frame#= 5021. Crc1 error SILENCED: read = 102B; calculated=C8EA
    Time 00:03:08.736; Frame#= 5899. Crc1 error SILENCED: read = A71A; calculated=78E7
    Time 00:04:32.960; Frame#= 8531. Crc1 error SILENCED: read = EA21; calculated=1FFE

    I remember Scott saying there were a bunch of issues with mpegstreamclip, maybe this is one of them?

    It seems some AC3 decoders have different types of error handling. Avidemux uses ffmpeg libraries, so it should have the "beeps" too if decoding

    Name:  nicac3.jpg
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    NicAC3 seems to ignore the errors, or you can't see them on the waveform or hear them


    Anyways it would probably be a good idea to start from the beginning
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  22. Member
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    The complete untouched VOB is available for download:

    [url]http://files.videohelp.com/u/

    Could one of you please take a look? What if the VOB is converted to MPG with another tool than MPEGStreamclip or Avidemux? Will there be beeps? Or no beeps?
    Last edited by HitTheRoad; 15th Jun 2014 at 18:22.
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  23. Member
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    I used ffmpeg to convert to PCM on your original file and heard no beeps.
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  24. Member
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    Originally Posted by smrpix View Post
    I used ffmpeg to convert to PCM on your original file and heard no beeps.
    Yes, ffmpeg works ok if you use it to demux ac3 directly (no errors in delaycut reported, no beeps) or convert the ac3 to wav directly in ffmpeg from the mpg .

    eac3to works fine too to either demux or convert

    I wonder why can't audacity do it directly from the mpg? Maybe the ffmpeg plugin for audacity is outdated ?




    Originally Posted by HitTheRoad View Post
    The complete untouched VOB is available for download:

    http://files.videohelp.com/u/203833/VTS_01_1.vob

    The other vob looks like a different video ?
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  25. Member
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    The other vob looks like a different video ?
    It's the complete kinescope, including the Rosemary Clooney performance.

    Yes there are errors in the stream. They coincide temporally with the beeps.
    Are these errors in the original MPEG stream? If yes, then wouldn't it be better to create a new MPG in stead of looking for other ways to demux?

    And why should one convert to WAV, AIFF or PCM? If the original audio is AC3, than wouldn't it be better to keep it AC3?
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  26. Member
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    Originally Posted by HitTheRoad View Post
    The other vob looks like a different video ?
    It's the complete kinescope, including the Rosemary Clooney performance.
    When I download from that link , it's a 18MB file - looks like a birthday party in 2003


    Yes there are errors in the stream. They coincide temporally with the beeps.
    Are these errors in the original MPEG stream? If yes, then wouldn't it be better to create a new MPG in stead of looking for other ways to demux?

    And why should one convert to WAV, AIFF or PCM? If the original audio is AC3, than wouldn't it be better to keep it AC3?

    Those errors are only present with certain demuxers, certain decoders.

    When you process it in an audio editor, it will be working in the uncompressed domain anyways (uncompressed PCM WAV)

    Ac3 is a form of lossy audio compression. It gets decoded to uncompressed audio when you import it into any audio editor

    It would be better to keep it as AC3 if you were doing nothing to it.



    Eitherway, I would avoid mpegstreamclip (I seem to recall it producing a bunch of errors, and cornucopia (scott) has stated that many times as well) - it might be causing additional issues to the "beeps"
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 15th Jun 2014 at 18:13.
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  27. Member
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    When I download from that link , it's a 18MB file - looks like a birthday party in 2003
    You're right. It's a wrong link. I deleted the right one! Now I have to upload it again. This will take some time. I will let you know when it's 100%.

    Eitherway, I would avoid mpegstreamclip (I seem to recall it producing a bunch of errors, and cornucopia (scott) has stated that many times as well) - it might be causing additional issues to the "beeps"
    I'm afraid there aren't many alternatives when you're on a Mac. The only one I know of is Avidemux.

    Ac3 is a form of lossy audio compression. It gets decoded to uncompressed audio when you import it into any audio editor
    After importing AC3 into an audio editor, you want to export and then remux. I understand now why PCM is an export option. You can remux PCM + M2V, but you can't remux WAV + M2V or AIFF + WAV. Can't You? So why would you want to export WAVs and AIFFs from Audacity?
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  28. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Rarely should you be able to mux PCM with M2V into a standard MPEG2-Program Stream container, but DVD VOBs are a superset of program streams that specifically support PCM audio.

    If this is getting authored and put onto DVD for its final form ANYWAY, it might be OK to mux to vob (during authoring) using PCM. However, since kinescopes probably need some TLC in the video area (and extra bitrate), it probably makes more sense to decode AC3 to PCM, process/filter the PCM to a new copy, then re-encode to AC3. Yes, you would have a small amount of quality loss due to re-conversion, but HOPEFULLY your processing/filtering is improving it so much that it offsets the loss. That's likely what I'd do anyway.

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  29. Member
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    it probably makes more sense to decode AC3 to PCM, process/filter the PCM to a new copy, then re-encode to AC3.
    This decoding to PCM WAV is something that happens automatically when one imports an audio file into Audacity or any audio editor, isn't it? At least, this is what I learned from Poisondeathray.
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  30. Member
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    While the original Rosemary Clooney VOB is being uploaded, please take a look at this MPEG2:

    http://files.videohelp.com/u/203833/Little%20Richard%20-%20She_s%20Got%20It%20(The%20G...t)%201956.mpeg

    There's an electronic beep at the very end of the clip. I have many of those, all produced by MPEGStreamclip. At first I thought it was my video player (MPlayer OSX Extended) producing these beeps, since VLC didn't produce any beeps. But now I begin to think it's MPEGStreamclip.

    The funny thing is, whenever one of my MPEG2s has a beep it's always at the very end of the file, when it stops playing. The Rosemary Clooney kinescope has a beep too. You can hear it when played in MPlayer OSX Extended. It's only since yesterday that I learned more beeps can be heard when listening to the remuxed AC3.

    It's clear to me now I'd better avoid MPEG Streamclip whenever editing clips from VOBs.
    But what can I do to repair the damaged MPEGs from my collection and get rid of the beeps? Can I do this without having to demux them and repair the audio in Audacity or some other audio editor??
    Last edited by HitTheRoad; 15th Jun 2014 at 19:57.
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