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  1. Searching for knowledge. trodas's Avatar
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    Todays I take a 9 mov pieces (the video inside is MPEG4 AVC (avc1), audio is IMA 4.0 ADPCM (ima4) ) and converted them using VirtualDub "direct stream copy" for both video and audio to AVI pieces.

    The capacity increased significantly - 1st piece from:
    64 883 794
    to
    94 457 310

    WTF?!

    Complete capacity was:
    953 057 804
    and it is in avi now
    1 356 829 794

    ...bad enought? It get worser. Then I tried to join all the pieces (the reason why I go for the AVI in first place) and the capacity from the size of the pieces:
    1 356 829 794
    bumped to
    3 607 073 114

    WTF!!!

    Anyone have any idea, what I doing wrong?! Or is the codecs inside these mov files so much incompatible with AVI container? I could, I suppose, reencode the audio...

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  2. Searching for knowledge. trodas's Avatar
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    After reencoding the audio to 128kBy CBR by Lame encoder, the sizes of the resulting files go nicely down - first chunk was:
    64 883 794
    and it is now
    58 147 268

    The complete size of the avi files are now:
    861 041 294
    and was
    953 057 804

    So far so good, eh? Well, not so fast! After loading all the chunks back in VirtualDub, appending one after another, I get again this size:
    3 485 702 628

    This is NUTS!
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  3. Member
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    Originally Posted by trodas View Post
    Todays I take a 9 mov pieces (the video inside is MPEG4 AVC (avc1), audio is IMA 4.0 ADPCM (ima4) ) and converted them using VirtualDub "direct stream copy" for both video and audio to AVI pieces.
    No, you did not use direct stream copy. Direct stream copy means that the original format (in this case avi in an mov container) stays unchanged without any sort of conversion.

    You did a conversion when making an avi, and the large file size is likely because you left it in VirtualDub's default RGB Uncompressed avi. Go to Video>Compression and select a more compressed avi codec, like xvid.

    Don't blame the software. It is not VirtualDub's fault that you don't know what you're doing.
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  4. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    "WTF!?" "Crazy!" "NUTS!" Makes perfect sense to me.

    Decide specifically what you want to do (and why) and then use the proper tool(s) for that job. Virtualdub is a great tool, but not a perfect one. It has some weaknesses and doesn't cover all contingencies.

    If you do ANY MODIFICATIONS while within Vdub, it wants to use RGB colorspace. If it does that, it has to decode EVERYTHING back to UNCOMPRESSED. Uncompressed is always GIGANTIC in size.

    If all you are doing is appending/joining without and change to resolution or cropping etc., there are probably more appropriate tools to use than Vdub, particularly if you are starting with .MOV files. QTPro is one that quickly comes to mind. FFmpeg also.

    It's not even clear why you think going to AVI is necessary for joining purposes..

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  5. Searching for knowledge. trodas's Avatar
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    filmboss80 -
    No, you did not use direct stream copy.
    I can assure you that I did. I tried that several times, checked double, triple... always used Direct stream copy. Always ended up with 3x bigger size of file that it should be. Or tell me, how in the hell I was able to encode at mere old Opteron 148 CPU (yes, Socket 939) at 1500+ FPS!!!



    Hence zour argument is invalid. I never do any conversion AND on top of that, if you already bothered to read my post at all, then you noticed, that I actually make the mov files smaller when converted to avi, using mp3 audio instead of the default ADPCM. So if you just read up, then you notice that I can do Direct stream copy in the files for reendocing just audio.
    Stop looking for fail where it is not and start reading pls.


    Cornucopia -
    "WTF!?" "Crazy!" "NUTS!" Makes perfect sense to me.
    For me it also does not make slight sense when you start to pointing that I should NOT reencode when I did not. Then WTF, Cryzy and Nuts! comes to my mind again. I usually used VD for joining parts that are at same resolution/bitrate w/o troubles.
    I did not do ANY MODIFICATION to the files, I just wanted them to join... that it is.
    Uncompressed file will be several magnitudes bigger anyway. The total lenght of the resulting video is over 2h, so 3.5G won't cover that, lol.

    I try FFmpeg. Come to my mind, that the bonus scenes might not be same bitrate... but could that result in so huge file?
    Hmmm, the bitrate fluctuate between 1917 (part 1) and 2086 (part 7) ... that should not be that huge problem, could it?
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  6. Member
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    Point MediaInfo at the file and see what codec it's using.
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  7. Searching for knowledge. trodas's Avatar
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    First good news - this:

    ffmpeg -i "concat:1.mov|2.mov|3.mov|4.mov|5.mov|6.mov|7.mov| 8.mov|9.mov" -c:v copy -c:a copy "output.mov"

    ...actually works well and the FFMpeg is trying to do something. However it end up with HUGE number of errors:

    http://www.mediafire.com/?nqc8wdu50p8mz5b

    backup:
    http://www.sendspace.com/file/xvh4u2
    https://www.oboom.com/4YWP32QM

    ...and the output file contain roughly the 1st episode. Not quite good.

    So I get idea... what about joining the AVI files ...?

    ffmpeg -i "concat:1.avi|2.avi|3.avi|4.avi|5.avi|6.avi|7.avi| 8.avi|9.avi" -c:v copy -c:a copy "output.avi"

    The result is 861 975 992 bytes big (that is good, the total capacity of the joined files are 861 041 294 bytes) however it does not play... some sound do play, but not much of video

    Log is there:
    http://www.mediafire.com/?4aonp5qksf5bdsz

    backup:
    http://www.sendspace.com/file/l664vl
    https://www.oboom.com/UJN5FNSU

    So I tried the ASF-AVI-RM-WMV Repair v1.82 and the result is 860 962 816 bytes long and same "usable" as the normal version...

    But funny thing - VirtualDub (1.10.4 build 35491) crashed when I tried to load the file into it. Funny stuff. There is the log:
    http://www.mediafire.com/?phpqys6nds6ph61

    backup:
    http://www.sendspace.com/file/twz57y
    https://www.oboom.com/E9GERFSJ


    ...there is something very wrong and I have no clue what...


    Mediainfo reported same as VirtualDub:
    Code:
    General
    Complete name                    : D:\CC\UL\mov\ChantasBitches 073 Gia Paloma1.mov
    Format                           : QuickTime
    Format/Info                      : Original Apple specifications
    Format profile                   : QuickTime
    Codec ID                         : qt  
    File size                        : 61.9 MiB
    Duration                         : 3mn 46s
    Overal bit rate                  : 2293 Kbps
    Performer                        : all performers over 18, 2257 records kept by: Chanta Rose, 336 Scott St. San Francisco, CA 94117
    Encoded date                     : UTC 2007-03-01 10:07:34
    Tagged date                      : UTC 2007-03-01 10:07:37
    Writing library                  : MCPR-for Macintosh-6.5.0
    Copyright                        : (c)2007_Twisted Factory
    
    Video
    Format                           : AVC
    Format/Info                      : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile                   : Main@L3.1
    Format settings, CABAC           : No
    Format settings, ReFrames        : 2
    Codec ID                         : avc1
    Duration                         : 3mn 46s
    Bit rate mode                    : VBR
    Bit rate                         : 1917 Kbps
    Width                            : 640 pixels
    Height                           : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio             : 4/3
    Frame rate mode                  : CFR
    Frame rate                       : 24.000 fps
    Colorimetry                      : 4:2:0
    Scan type                        : Progressive
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 0.260
    Stream size                      : 51.7 MiB
    Encoded date                     : UTC 2007-03-01 09:55:20
    Tagged date                      : UTC 2007-03-01 10:07:37
    
    Audio
    Format                           : ADPCM
    Format settings, Firm            : IMA
    Codec ID                         : ima4
    Duration                         : 3mn 46s
    Bit rate mode                    : CBR
    Bit rate                         : 352.8 Kbps
    Channel(s)                       : 2 channels
    Sampling rate                    : 44.1 KHz
    Resolution                       : 16 bits
    Stream size                      : 9.52 MiB
    Encoded date                     : UTC 2007-03-01 09:55:20
    Tagged date                      : UTC 2007-03-01 10:07:37
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  8. Member
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    Do the 'Larger' files have a longer duration? It's possible the time-codes are wrong and the programs are adding filler.

    First things first, try re-encoding that ADPCM track to actual PCM, if it was all that well supported, I wouldn't have had to type it into google to find out what it was, maybe EAC3To will do the conversion. Second, take the file to pieces, mux the AVC with MKVMerge with the --fix-bitstream-timing-information 0:1 option.

    Try muxing them into both MKV and MP4 containers. You'll need to convert the Audio to AAC for MP4Box to recognise it.

    Then we'll see what we can see.
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  9. Searching for knowledge. trodas's Avatar
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    You seems to focus on the audio part. But I did already reencoded all the mov files weird audio into avi files with lame 128kBi CBR audio track, so audio should no longer be issue when merging the avi files, right?

    The smaller, VirtualDub (1.10.4 build 35491) crashing file ( https://www.oboom.com/CIKYNBQA - alternative: http://www.mediafire.com/?dlcgvidlyp2ymc9 ) of size 860 962 816 bytes (after the repair) do show in BSplayer lenght 51:31 ... but you can be on the right track, because I vaguely remember, that the lenght of the superbig 3G+ files are over 2h...

    The parts lenghts are:
    1 - 3:46
    2 - 9:01
    3 - 5:32
    4 - 4:53
    5 - 5:38
    6 - 5:42
    7 - 5:43
    8 - 5:31
    9 - 5:41

    So by rought calculation, this makes 46 min + 327sec = 51min 27sec ... so roughly (the times are probably a few fraction of sec more, so all that make for the missing 4 sec in total between calculated 51:27 and 51:31) this is fine.

    However the huge file, that is another story. Let me rejoin the files once again... and we see...

    Ugh! Just loading all the avi segments into VD show that there is 299 905 frames and the lenght is 3h 28min 16.042sec.
    I see a problem!



    Obviously things cannot get right this way...
    Last edited by trodas; 27th May 2014 at 05:57.
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    I'm sure I mentioned separating audio and video into different containers to compare them...
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  11. Searching for knowledge. trodas's Avatar
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    Yep, but please provide some details on how should I do it.
    Second, take the file to pieces, mux the AVC with MKVMerge with the --fix-bitstream-timing-information 0:1 option.
    Take to pieces? How, what to use? And original mov files, or the avi ones?

    Mux the AVC ... that mean join the parts again into MKV/MP4 container with the fix bitstream option? Please provide the commandline, as I'm not very experienced with the mkvmerge.... thanks!
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    Originally Posted by trodas View Post
    filmboss80 -
    No, you did not use direct stream copy.
    I can assure you that I did. I tried that several times, checked double, triple... always used Direct stream copy. Always ended up with 3x bigger size of file that it should be. Or tell me, how in the hell I was able to encode at mere old Opteron 148 CPU (yes, Socket 939) at 1500+ FPS!!!

    Hence zour argument is invalid. I never do any conversion AND on top of that, if you already bothered to read my post at all, then you noticed, that I actually make the mov files smaller when converted to avi, using mp3 audio instead of the default ADPCM. So if you just read up, then you notice that I can do Direct stream copy in the files for reendocing just audio.
    Stop looking for fail where it is not and start reading pls.
    You just stated, more than once, that you are converting mov files to avi. VirtualDub will not do direct stream copy from non-AVI sources. So stop with the bullsh!t.
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    OK, then, now we know. If you need proof, MediaInfo the output file and compare the codecs, which you should have done anyway.
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  14. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    This seems to be another one of those times where the OP needs to:
    1. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and re-evaluate.
    2. Use the correct tools (e.g. MediaInfo) to THOROUGHLY examine just what source files he/she has to work with. EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM.
    3. Explain, in DETAIL, WHAT is the target destination(s), and WHY (because one of the biggest hindrances to correct workflows here is inaccurate assumptions).
    4. Explain, again in DETAIL, step-by-step (#'d if necessary) the intended workflow pathways (because another hindrance is inconsistency between intention & execution, usually due to inadequate understanding of certain media or computer principles).
    5. Provide short EXAMPLES of both BEFORE & AFTER, so others can compare, not just the OP (because "nearsightedness" is another hindrance). MediaInfo on all clips involved is also helpful.
    6. Read between the lines and listen to the meaning of what is being told to them. Respect the helper's "authority" on the matter, especially if they have good "credentials", and don't impatiently 2nd-guess. This may even include doing a little research on media foundations & glossary definitions.
    7. If you provide examples or info, also explain where that info came from, and possibly even how that came to be and why you consider it relevant.
    8. Stick to the main points (including the direct answering of them), without veering off on tangents, hyperbole and/or fluff.

    Going back to your original post:
    The #s you provided are EVIDENCE that whatever you ARE doing, it includes SOME FORM of RE-ENCODING (even if it is to uncompressed). Sizes don't get THAT much bigger due to simple muxing/container changes. So my assumption that you ARE re-encoding, even if you think you aren't, is likely a valid one. Of course, nobody here still knows for sure, because you haven't gone to the trouble of providing us with that detailed info (of both the before & after) that would be necessary for objective analysis.
    Also, you still haven't answered my original question: what format did you REALLY want to end up with? If you start with *.MOV, is that what you wanted to end up with? You mention "only going to AVI because you wanted to join files", but as I explained, there are PLENTY of methods of joining files without having to resort to using the AVI container as an alternate container format.

    Scott

    BTW, if your response to this is more inadequate jerking around, I'll assume you're not really interested in real "help", and will act accordingly (hopefully others will, too).
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  15. Searching for knowledge. trodas's Avatar
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    I still stand by my research and that it that VirtualDub does NOT reencode when the option "Direct stream copy" is used, even when the source is mov and the destination is avi. I know that also because sometimes some of the video encoding formats cannot be put into avi container and VD tell me about it right away.

    Regardless that the sizes of not joined - just converted files- prove me being right and everyone else being wrong about the reencode, then I do what I asked to do and prove my case. There is the MediaInfo of the source mov file, part 1:

    Code:
    General
    Complete name                    : D:\CC\UL\mov\ChantasBitches 073 Gia Paloma1.mov
    Format                           : QuickTime
    Format/Info                      : Original Apple specifications
    Format profile                   : QuickTime
    Codec ID                         : qt  
    File size                        : 61.9 MiB
    Duration                         : 3mn 46s
    Overal bit rate                  : 2293 Kbps
    Performer                        : all performers over 18, 2257 records kept by: Chanta Rose, 336 Scott St. San Francisco, CA 94117
    Encoded date                     : UTC 2007-03-01 10:07:34
    Tagged date                      : UTC 2007-03-01 10:07:37
    Writing library                  : MCPR-for Macintosh-6.5.0
    Copyright                        : (c)2007_Twisted Factory
    
    Video
    Format                           : AVC
    Format/Info                      : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile                   : Main@L3.1
    Format settings, CABAC           : No
    Format settings, ReFrames        : 2
    Codec ID                         : avc1
    Duration                         : 3mn 46s
    Bit rate mode                    : VBR
    Bit rate                         : 1917 Kbps
    Width                            : 640 pixels
    Height                           : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio             : 4/3
    Frame rate mode                  : CFR
    Frame rate                       : 24.000 fps
    Colorimetry                      : 4:2:0
    Scan type                        : Progressive
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 0.260
    Stream size                      : 51.7 MiB
    Encoded date                     : UTC 2007-03-01 09:55:20
    Tagged date                      : UTC 2007-03-01 10:07:37
    
    Audio
    Format                           : ADPCM
    Format settings, Firm            : IMA
    Codec ID                         : ima4
    Duration                         : 3mn 46s
    Bit rate mode                    : CBR
    Bit rate                         : 352.8 Kbps
    Channel(s)                       : 2 channels
    Sampling rate                    : 44.1 KHz
    Resolution                       : 16 bits
    Stream size                      : 9.52 MiB
    Encoded date                     : UTC 2007-03-01 09:55:20
    Tagged date                      : UTC 2007-03-01 10:07:37

    And there is the same part 1 of the file, just with the audio reeencoded, the video is the same, as anyone can see:

    Code:
    General
    Complete name                    : D:\CC\UL\ChantasBitches 073 Gia Paloma1.avi
    Format                           : AVI
    Format/Info                      : Audio Video Interleave
    File size                        : 55.5 MiB
    Duration                         : 3mn 46s
    Overal bit rate                  : 2055 Kbps
    Writing library                  : VirtualDub build 35491/release
    
    Video
    Format                           : AVC
    Format/Info                      : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile                   : Main@L3.1
    Format settings, CABAC           : No
    Format settings, ReFrames        : 2
    Codec ID                         : AVC1
    Duration                         : 3mn 46s
    Bit rate                         : 1917 Kbps
    Width                            : 640 pixels
    Height                           : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio             : 4/3
    Frame rate                       : 24.000 fps
    Resolution                       : 24 bits
    Colorimetry                      : 4:2:0
    Scan type                        : Progressive
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 0.260
    Stream size                      : 51.7 MiB
    
    Audio
    Format                           : MPEG Audio
    Format version                   : Version 1 / Layer 3
    Codec ID                         : 55
    Codec ID/Hint                    : MP3
    Duration                         : 3mn 46s
    Bit rate mode                    : CBR
    Bit rate                         : 128 Kbps
    Channel(s)                       : 2 channels
    Sampling rate                    : 44.1 KHz
    Resolution                       : 16 bits
    Stream size                      : 3.45 MiB

    So as you can see, in both cases, the video codec remained the very same - AVC1, 1917 Kbps and variable bitrate.

    Therefore I think I proved that VirtualDub does NOT reencode when the "Direct stream copy" option is used - or at least NOT in this case. Can we all agree on that for once?


    And there is a good reminder that I should specified more precisely what I want as the ouput format container. Indeed I did not write it anywhere and I'm sorry about it. So I would like that the result will be avi file. That is probably the best way. I could go for WMV file too, but definitively not to MKV or other more "exotic" containers (for everage Joe).



    And I'm still very much interesed about this:
    Second, take the file to pieces, mux the AVC with MKVMerge with the --fix-bitstream-timing-information 0:1 option.
    How to exactly use the MKVMerge that could possibly fix the bitstream timing info? Because that is IMHO likely to cause so huge size after the VD join operation.
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    Why are you giving us the MediaInfo output of one of the files that shank? That's not what this thread is about. That file didn't go through whatever process is causing the issue.

    Point MediaInfo at one of the larger files and we may have something to work with.
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  17. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    What filmboss80 said about Vdub should be clarified: Assuming NO modfication of the stream, and depending upon the necessity of colorspace conversion, and on the method used to input the file (via which plugin, etc), and on the codec used, "Direct Stream Copy" may or may not be possible.

    In the case of the 2 files JUST PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED (and possibly NOT of any of the others), DSC seems to be working for the video portion (although it isn't reporting all parameters identically - probably due to how MI reads the container/codec headers and differences within those container types). However, these 2 example files do nothing to explain regarding the filesize differences, because (not counting the change in the audio) THEY AREN'T DIFFERENT FILESIZES.

    Container size = Video stream(s) size + Audio stream(s) size + overhead (usually small in comparison)

    In your 1st example just above, 61.9 = 51.7 + 9.52 + 0.68. In your 2nd example, 55.5 = 51.7 + 3.45 + 0.35. The video stream IS IDENTICAL in size, the audio stream CORRESPONDS EXACTLY with the intended bitrate (1st is 2.75x the 2nd), and the overhead is about what you'd expect to be for MOV and AVI, respectively.

    But that is only 1 example, and not really one of the "problem" files (the Appended ones). And I'm going to make an educated guess and say that it could be the appending which is ruining your "Direct Stream Copy" scenario. Particularly if the sources don't all already match in their parameters.

    Scott
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  18. Searching for knowledge. trodas's Avatar
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    Ha! Done!

    Because we are getting nowhere with VirtualDub, then I tried the MKV tools. I took the latest version, that the GUI program MMG.exe and added all the original mov files and let it made a mkv file out of that.
    Added the commandline "--fix-bitstream-timing-information 0:1" - THANKS to ndjamena!

    Result: video OK, just no audio. Playable. Weird.
    So I added the avi files to the MMG, where I have the audio already reencoded and vioa! Result:
    858 009 572 bytes big, 51:31 long and all fine!

    So I loaded the MKV file into VirtualDub, choosen the Direct stream copy and avi file is there! Result:
    861 981 822 bytes big, 51:31 long and playing all well!


    Ufff. The bitream was somewhat damaged for sure.

    74194 frames now - it was 299 905 frames
    51:34.417 time now - it was 3:28:1.042

    If anyone want the source mov files, I keep them uploaded, but MKV fixed the bitstream, ugh. Thanks all for sometimes good suggestions to the right place.


    ndjamena - well, in case you did not noticed (I don't mean to be sarcastic, you helped me out greatly, but you are asking about it so bad, man, I cannot resist!), there are people claiming the in VirtualDub a reencode of the videostream happen. I prove them wrong, because the mov was passed thru VD to get the audio to mp3
    That was the goal. The huge files took so long to make, to I stick with the small parts to show the issue at hand.


    Cornucopia - good to know that you clarifies the VD thing. In most cases (except most notably for example a mp2 stream - it do not like being put into avi at all) the direct stream copy is possible. It is like 99% of my cases, but I work mainly with already used/abused videos, not raw source material, ever. So, my 99% could not be 99% of everyone.

    Your answer would require long post with all media info files for all 9 parts and you have to take my word that they are identical (except a very slight changes in the bitrate calculated for them). The proof is, that I sucesfully joined them today Hooooray!

    That was hard nut to crack, heh
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