External microphone,which one is best for my panasonic hdc sd 700.

[Cornucopia]

A few extra response items:

I don't know WHO you are talking to at those shops, but they are likely SALESMEN, not AUDIO ENGINEERS. I have been an audio engineer for over 2 decades.

You chose a mic (NTG-2) which has certain prerequisites and assumptions, but you aren't supplying those, so things won't work right until you do - one way or another. There's the Professional path to this and the Non-professional path. A beachtek amp would be gong the pro path. An adapter cable would be going the other way.

We cannot MAKE you do one thing or the other with your money, just tell you advice.

My advice right now is: Take your NTG-2 back to where you bought it and exchange it for a Rode VideoMic. Then, you don't have to worry about mounting, nor about power supply, nor about impedance matching, nor about level matching, nor about cable interfacing.

You CLEARLY have already decided you don't want an off-camera miking setup. You CLEARLY also don't want to go Double System. You CLEARLY want something that doesn't need a lot of adapting to get it right. And you CLEARLY have a hard & low limit on your budget. What isn't clear is why you weren't clear about these things to us at the beginning when we were asking you about them. Would have saved a lot of wasted extra time!

There IS a sound benefit when using a Beachtek. However, it is quite possible YOU wouldn't notice or appreciate the difference, which does make it wasted considering its cost.
Same with H4N. An H4N is a very good device, but not a GREAT one. I own one. And have very successfully used it on a number of pro film shoots. But it's not perfect, nor 100% professional level either (that would be the Sound Devices 702t, which literally costs 10x what the Zoom H4N does: http://www.sounddevices.com/products/702t/). (hopefully I will be graduating to that level soon).
H4N has a moderate self-noise and a low sensitivity, so requires a good field mixer to get optimal dynamic range (I use a Shure FP-33a ). Boot & initialization time is ~40seconds depending upon the size of the SD card you are using. That's not instantaneous, but there are plenty of things you need to do to get ready to record that would productively use up that time, so the idea that it takes too long is just BS. For a pro audio engineer, it is EXTREMELY EASY to set up, and the menu system is simple & structured. If you have NO IDEA what you're doing with audio, it might be a little daunting, but it really only has the standard items you would need to find on an audio device of this nature. And if you work the same way, once you set it up the 1st time, it's ready to go the next time! So, those naysayers don't have clue, probably have never used it more than once, and are talking out of their butts.
It's moot, though, since you DON'T want double system, which is what H4N would give you.

***************

So, if, after ALL that we have explained & suggested to you, you still are at "square one", I think it's time I leave you to it.

Scott

[juniorfotograaf]

Thnx for the reaction

Arrived here today(about a hour ago) where the deadcat and the sennheiser cable that connects videocam with the shotgun mic.
So i will go and explore with that.
I saw a video from beachtek a moment ago that was talking about installing and "using" the beachtek thing.
There and elswhere they where telling that if possible you should set the mic volume setting to about 30 procent of full or as i understand set it to -12db if you are using an external mic.
Is that also the case if your using just a external mic with nothing in between external mic and camera ?
I found out how to set the mic sound level manually,but if i set it to -12db (the hdc sd 700 lets you set the sound levels bij 3steps at once in + or - db's)then the meter on the screen goes over the half of the showed meter even if i hold it in front of a blower that keeps the heat out of the room.
Is that normal ?
As typed earlier,i now have the possibility to test this basic set out,now i need to find some setting that looks a lot like where i want to use it.
If i have the chance to test it out like that, i will try to dump a you tube link here and ask what you think.
(maybe tips after seeing that,can help me further)
So i will be back.
Thanks for all the help even if i do not understand some of the technical phrases that came by here,i am a bit wiser non the less

[Cornucopia]

All those suggestions about levels are ALWAYS generic rules of thumb which ought to be manually adjusted for your situation.

All else being equal, a Beachtek can provide a little extra "uummph" that isn't available to an unaided microphone (though it may not be necessary for some moments). A weaker mic signal would require a higher sensitivity/gain setting to get equal record levels. YMMV.

If you want to know more on how to set the whole chain of things correctly, do a Google search on "gain structure".

Scott

[juniorfotograaf]

Hello Cornucopia,

About those people in the shops the only thing i know and saw,they where not to young and they told a lot of things that a newbie cant know(seeing it from a newbie perspective)
You chose a mic (NTG-2) which has certain prerequisites and assumptions, but you aren't supplying those, so things won't work right until you do - one way or another.
CAn you tell me what you mean with: prerequisites and assumptions ?
I know ? that assumptions meens that in think how something should work/hope that it works in the way i want.
But the prerequisites part is for me not clear,the last time before this forum and this thread,that i used english i one form or another is over 8 years back,and since i'm not in a english/american speaking country,i dont know all of the terms anymore,sorry.
(you want to know what i have bought /have here right now ? )
AS told earlier for the moment i have no option then to use the mic with the adapter cable and plug it directly in the cam with or with out the rode ws6 deadcat.
Fully pro i cant afford,that costs to much,certainly for the times that i would use the stuff for making a nice holiday movie with steamtrains and who nows what else that you get for bonus
But in the future a bit more then just a vacation filmer,would be great in the field that interests me.
So if you say that a beachtek xlr adapter(active or not) is worth the investment in a bit of time,then it will get here.
As i told earlier the xlr cable for plugging the mic to such a xlr device is bought also today just in case those figures in the shops dont know what they are saying
Remains a other question,would a active xlr adapter be worth the more money for me then the not active version,knowing what it would be used for and how often it would be used ???

[Cornucopia]

"Prerequisite" = Some condition that must be fulfilled first before the original desired task/object is available/usable.

Assumptions & Prerequisites I have already gone over with you. These topics WRT pro mikes were covered: Phantom powering, balanced XLR output, Output level, Form factor (size/shape).
Nothing has changed since I first mentioned all these things. Things that need to be accommodated and/or adapted first for it to work for you.

Sounds like you're stuck with the NTG-2 for now. And it sounds like you cannot currently afford a Beachtek type device, so you're stuck going the simple cable adapter for now.

re: Active vs. Passive,
In this context, things that are "active" have their own power source (battery and/or AC and/or from cam/external) so that they can do things like fully isolate both sides of a bridge (balanced pro XLR side, and unbalanced consumer 3.5mm side), and to amplify. The simple adapter cable is a passive device. The Beachtek DXA-HDV is active and can amplify. The Beachtek DXA-2T is passive, so it cannot amplify, only reduce level. It is still better than a simple cable adapter because it gives you some amount of control over the incoming signal level and it is nominally better isolated than what could be achieved via the wiring in the adapter cable. But that's it.

Again, you won't know without testing these things out firsthand. I cannot necessarily tailor the optimal devices for your needs/tastes because I am only peripherally familiar with those needs/tastes. And NO amount of explanation will describe thoroughly enough what these are all best suited for. (I could get to the point where you would fully understand on your own when to best use things and when not, but to do so would amount to a 3-semester course on Physics/Electronics, Acoustics, Audio Engineering, etc - not going to happen).

If you are having difficulty with translation, use Google or other translators, plus friends who are multi-lingual. You've had lots of time to think about what's been suggested, so I don't really consider that a valid excuse anymore.

So, we've led the horse to water, but will it drink on its own?

Scott

[juniorfotograaf]

Back again and got a bit further.
Found the AGC function,it is hidden in the record setup menu,when you want to manually adjust sound levels there is a little button on screen for the AGC.
Found that out just after a sort of test run
What i have tryed out now is using the external NTG mic mounted on the cam and fiddle around with different audio settings.
A friend of mine got a new car and wantd to go for a spin,so i suggested to combine his "test drive with me hanging the cam out of the window.
Tryed it out first with auto settings,then manually with a setting of minus 12db(came in the red quite fast on the audiometer),next up set the levels further back to minus 22db,that was better(took harder driving to get to the red)
Only things i did not got tested was setting the camera audio levels to minus 30(that is as far as it will go),and change the the little knob on the ntg 2,and then try out something.
The last thing i could not try out now, is what would happen if i do these steps again but withe the High Pass Filter on ,on the NTG 2.
But i'm guessing the same friend is not done driving more with his new car,so i will try again with mentioned things that i forgot to do
What is strange for me to see with the made clips so far is, that even if the camera audio meter is not in the red,looking it back with pinnacle studio 17,some audio does come in the orange and tapping the red some times,even with the last recorded clip (minus 22db)there are some short moments that it taps against the red.
Anyone knows why with the camera audiometer it stays in the safe zone,and back on the computer it is more off and in the orange/red zone as i look to that audio meter in studio 17 ??
In short the mic works better then i thought,sounds coming from left or rightsides are as good as 0,and the things that come in to the recording/pickup sound zone give a good sound
It will take more alternativ testing but i'm getting wiser i think
Also if i am going to get a beachtek device in the future,it will be the active version,found out by more research that that would be the best way to go within the range that i want to get better sound for the best price.
I just wanted to share this new episode in my quest to find out more from external mics and filming with something like that
BY the way just one question:
If i want to set the audio levels manually and only there i find the AGC button,would it be better to turn the AGC on or leave it off just i did probably for as long as i have the videocam ??

[smrpix]

Very nice to see that you're experimenting. However, 2 things are noticeably absent in your description.

1) What were you making a recording of? What was your target? The car engine, people's conversations on the sidewalk?

2) Orange and red levels are good to check, well done, but did any of the recordings sound qualitatively better than the others? In other words, how well could you hear the sound you were targeting as opposed to other noise?

[juniorfotograaf]

You are right that some things are absent.
Prime answer for the first question you ask,is quite simple,nothing in particular,my first issue was to see how it would pick up sounds from the sides,certainly with the stereo quite loud,it focussed on what was in front,and that was most of the time or a car or air
(more air then car better said)
For the second answer you could best look at the first answer.(execpt the checking of sound levels and sounds quality)
I'm trying to find out what i could hunt down/follow on the street hanging out af a car,that could be a surrogate steamloco
What id did find out even when standig still and you have crossing cars in front of the mic ,it picks those sounds up from the passing traffic,and what happens on the sides is absend as far as recorded sounds goes
Nice example,driving through a street to a round about and turning in to the bend a agricultural vehicle came our way(tractor) it picked the sounds up from the tractor(you hear it going passed ) and nothing else
So now i need something to chase hanging out of the car to test what it does if i focus on that for a longer time.
STill looking for what would be a good patient for that
Any suggestions ?

[juniorfotograaf]

**

[juniorfotograaf]

Hello,

Learned a bit and tryed to fill this message 3 times so this going to be sober,because i hate repeating myself because of a computer glitch.
External mic is giving problems again.
The sound is not nice,and it pics up to much noise,and not what i want.
(taped over the conection from mic to cable that runs from mic to camera,but that doesnt help much)
Could it be that the "open" front for the mic plug is the problem ?
Here are two pics from the camera setup that is (i think a part of my problem:

and

an a unedited file of a part of the trip will "show" you my problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6FagFglLaw&list=UUxYQao4ipCzybo5FDSvH2qw

(you need to screw up the sound before you hear something)


I hope someone can tell me if i have a problem in a place i did not look at,or someone that gives me a solution to my problem in a place i think it is.

[smrpix]

You're getting wind noise and phasing cancellation (and possibly over modulation -- too loud.) Exactly what one would expect by pointing a shotgun microphone into the wind. It has nothing to do with the connector.

Possible corrections have been suggested repeatedly in this thread, you may want to go back and read some of the earlier posts. If you are going to insist on keeping the mic mounted on the camera, in auto mode, relatively unprotected, far from the locomotive, you can expect to continue getting similar results.

[juniorfotograaf]

Auto mode,ow no.
This is not auto mode.
AGC is off,manual audio level setting is brought back to the most minimun,to keep the sound in the white and not the red.
But stil with that the audio is not going to work.
But the conclusion would be be never put a external mic on videocamera because the sound will be crap.
Ok,now that i have tried my hardest and failed.
The conclution will be,use the internal mic and live with some what less crapy sound
.
Or try to pay more money and get a recording device that is stand alone and mix it togrthrr