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  1. Member pchan's Avatar
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    I was looking for this type of disc for quite awhile and found it but it cost S$18(US$14) for a double sided disc.
    I searched in Amazon, and the price is almost the same. This format is dying ?
    The main reason that I was looking for this format is reliability.

    Any cheaper alternatives ? Thanks in advance.
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    Yes, this format is dying. It never became popular, except with Panasonic and a few other Japanese companies for use with their DVD recorders and some cameras.

    I haven't found DVD-RAM to be at all reliable myself. Three out of twelve of the Panasonic DVD-RAM discs I bought failed after only a few uses with a Panasonic DVD recorder, and anyone uses DVD-RAM for long term storage is a fool. I use DVD-RW or DVD+RW now instead if I need rewritable media and try to get anything I record onto more permanent storage within a year's time.

    [Edit]For long term storage, use good write-once DVD media, such as Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden/JVC. All re-writable media is less stable than write-once media.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 7th May 2014 at 17:24.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    I haven't found DVD-RAM to be at all reliable myself.
    I, on the other hand, have found DVD-RAM to be extremely reliable-- unlike DVD-RWs, which I have had fail on a fairly regular basis...

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    anyone uses DVD-RAM for long term storage is a a fool.
    Well thanks for that slur!......one of the reasons I chose DVD-RAM was that it is the only consumer disc format which includes automatic hardware data verification.... the much simpler DVD-RW or +RW formats do not. Sorry if that make me the fool?....

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    I use DVD-RW or DVD+RW
    Well, good luck there..... I have had a failure rate over the past 5 years of almost 30% of my DVD-RW discs (of various makes). And as for re-writing more than once or twice for most of them?... forget it!

    Of course, this being the internet, it could be that I'm talking nonsense, and you're not..... or the other way round?

    It's only in a few years time that the OP will find out... when either his DVDRWs or DVDRAMS start to fail......

    Mind you, in this day and age why anyone is still looking to re-writable 'dye' based discs of any persuasion.. DVD or Blu-ray...for long term data storage as a sensible option is highly questionable....
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    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    I haven't found DVD-RAM to be at all reliable myself.
    I, on the other hand, have found DVD-RAM to be extremely reliable-- unlike DVD-RWs, which I have had fail on a fairly regular basis...

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    anyone uses DVD-RAM for long term storage is a a fool.
    Well thanks for that slur!......one of the reasons I chose DVD-RAM was that it is the only consumer disc format which includes automatic hardware data verification.... the much simpler DVD-RW or +RW formats do not. Sorry if that make me the fool?....

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    I use DVD-RW or DVD+RW
    Well, good luck there..... I have had a failure rate over the past 5 years of almost 30% of my DVD-RW discs (of various makes). And as for re-writing more than once or twice for most of them?... forget it!

    Of course, this being the internet, it could be that I'm talking nonsense, and you're not..... or the other way round?

    It's only in a few years time that the OP will find out... when either his DVDRWs or DVDRAMS start to fail......

    Mind you, in this day and age why anyone is still looking to re-writable 'dye' based discs of any persuasion.. DVD or Blu-ray...for long term data storage as a sensible option is highly questionable....
    I said to use write once media for long term storage. Maybe you missed that. ...and yes if you, pippas, are using re-writable media of any kind, including DVD-RAM, for long term storage you are indeed foolish. If you don't believe me, just do a search around here for what Lord Smurf has to say on the subject of DVD-RAM.

    Maybe you simply don't understand the nature of the material used for the write layer re-writable media, which always returns to its original state on its own over time, at which point it is unreadable, and all the built-in data verification in the world is worthless. ...and it becomes unreadable much faster than a good write-once dye, even when properly stored.

    [Edit]Oh wait, you have been part of a thread where Lord Smurf and I commented on our experiences with DVD-RAM. (http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/335497-Future-of-DVD-RAM) but apparently nothing he said made any impression on you.

    Here's an earlier post from him about the stability of recordable and re-writeable DVD media http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/192013-such-thing-as-disc-data-disappearing-how-lon...=1#post1046967 but it appears his opinion on DVD-RAM has changed since then.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 7th May 2014 at 19:02.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    I said to use write once media for long term storage.
    To use any dye based writable media - one time or re-writable - for long term storage is almost certainly foolish. Apart from the (obvious) obsolescence problem with the players in the medium/ long term, the reality versus the marketing 'hype' for the reliability of dye based media has not been good.
    DVDRAM has fared best so far.. particularly for the number of re-write cycles. That's both from the specification, and from - in my own case - personal experience.

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    If you don't believe me, just do a search around here for what Lord Smurf has to say on the subject of DVD-RAM.
    Fortunately, I have managed to avoid much of what 'Lord Smurf' has advised over the years -- and, for example, saved myself the grief of owning a dismally unreliable JVC DVD recorder he recommended for a long time. I also managed to ignore much of the nonsense he 'advised' concerning the use of Canopus ADVC converters.
    So I'm not likely to take much notice of his advice on the wisdom of choosing any particular DVD format....
    Reading the academic technical papers on the advantages of phase change optical recording techniques seems to make more sense to me.

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Maybe you simply don't understand the nature of the material used for the write layer re-writable media.
    I'm sure I don't ... I'm not an industrial chemist. I can only rely on published technical reports concerning the different approach taken with DVD RAM, and my own experience.

    As is often suggested, relying on any specific individual 'medium' for long term storage is unwise, and the long term future for optical discs in general is not looking good. The dismal failure of Blu-ray to successfully supersede DVD as a mainstream 'writable' format has shown that optical 'spinning discs' will likely follow HDD 'spinning discs' into obsolescence, sooner rather than later. So the concerns for long term DVD reliability are probably largely academic.
    In the shorter term, I would still personally recommend DVDRAM as the most reliable of the writable discs for the near future.
    But as I say, we can all only base these comments on our individual interpretation of the published data for the various formats, and our own experiences....
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    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    I said to use write once media for long term storage.
    To use any dye based writable media - one time or re-writable - for long term storage is almost certainly foolish. Apart from the (obvious) obsolescence problem with the players in the medium/ long term, the reality versus the marketing 'hype' for the reliability of dye based media has not been good.
    DVDRAM has fared best so far.. particularly for the number of re-write cycles. That's both from the specification, and from - in my own case - personal experience.

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    If you don't believe me, just do a search around here for what Lord Smurf has to say on the subject of DVD-RAM.
    Fortunately, I have managed to avoid much of what 'Lord Smurf' has advised over the years -- and, for example, saved myself the grief of owning a dismally unreliable JVC DVD recorder he recommended for a long time. I also managed to ignore much of the nonsense he 'advised' concerning the use of Canopus ADVC converters.
    So I'm not likely to take much notice of his advice on the wisdom of choosing any particular DVD format....
    Reading the academic technical papers on the advantages of phase change optical recording techniques seems to make more sense to me.

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Maybe you simply don't understand the nature of the material used for the write layer re-writable media.
    I'm sure I don't ... I'm not an industrial chemist. I can only rely on published technical reports concerning the different approach taken with DVD RAM, and my own experience.

    As is often suggested, relying on any specific individual 'medium' for long term storage is unwise, and the long term future for optical discs in general is not looking good. The dismal failure of Blu-ray to successfully supersede DVD as a mainstream 'writable' format has shown that optical 'spinning discs' will likely follow HDD 'spinning discs' into obsolescence, sooner rather than later. So the concerns for long term DVD reliability are probably largely academic.
    In the shorter term, I would still personally recommend DVDRAM as the most reliable of the writable discs for the near future.
    But as I say, we can all only base these comments on our individual interpretation of the published data for the various formats, and our own experiences....
    First, the phase change material in re-writable discs isn't dye based. It is a metallic alloy with an amorphous phase and a crystaline phase. Second the number of possible re-write cycles is immaterial if you are looking for something to use for non-temporary storage. Third, you are the only person on these forums who I can recall saying that good dye-based DVD media does not have better reliability and (when stored correctly) better longevity than any other type of DVD media in common use. M-Disk DVDs might be more stable, but M-Disc isn't in common use and as I recall, only LG makes optical drives that burn it.

    Recommending DVD-RAM to anyone at this point is irresponsible. DVD-RAM is getting harder to find every year. Optical drives that both read and write DVD-RAM are becoming less common too. The DVD-RAM spec allows skipping bad sectors during writing but if this happens, most software won't read the DVD-RAM disc correctly. Most software treats DVD-RAM like any other type of DVD media, and will stop reading as soon as it finds a bad sector, even though there is a completely intact file on the disc. I know this from personal experience.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 7th May 2014 at 21:36.
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  7. Member pchan's Avatar
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    OK folks. I have 2 DVD-RAM out of 500 disc which consist of CDR/RW and DVD +RW/-RW/+R/-R. Some -/+R and RW failed and majority of all CDRW failed. All my CDRs are OK. Maybe by chance that my 2 DVD-RAM are OK. I was thinking of getting more DVD-RAM but the price skyrocketed. Maybe I should consider USB Flash driver and cheaper too. Not sure of reliabilty though.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Recommending DVD-RAM to anyone at this point is irresponsible. DVD-RAM is getting harder to find every year. Optical drives that both read and write DVD-RAM are becoming less common too.
    I think it could well be appropriate to edit that comment even further, to read: "Recommending DVDs to anyone at this point is irresponsible. DVDs are getting harder to find every year. Optical drives that both read and write DVDs are becoming less common too".......
    The latter point being especially relevant....

    Originally Posted by pchan View Post
    Maybe I should consider USB Flash driver and cheaper too. Not sure of reliability though.
    I think that could well be a good decision. Regarding the reliability issue: As with all other storage formats, the real answer to that at present has to be - nobody knows...
    Early claims for some DVD media suggested some very impressive longevity statistics, which time has already shown to be commonly untrue.
    That could be the case for flash as well... although it seems less likely. The advantages of having no moving parts is also a positive feature. Again, where only a single write cycle is required, flash could well prove to be very reliable....

    It's likely to be a bit of a challenge for the mechanics in DVD players to remain reliable in the longer term, even if some of the 'write once' discs prove to be OK, and we shall almost certainly see the same situation now facing the owners of VHS libraries, as they begin to struggle to find players to allow them to transfer their precious recordings to digital media...

    What is good advice is to keep more than one copy of everything important... and ideally on different storage media. Using duplicated 'cloud' storage seems a logical way forward for backups in the future. Then there's no reliance on any specific piece of hardware at all....
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  9. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Bullshit.
    Optical drives are still quite available - Fry's, Costco, BB (saw some this last weekend), Walmart, online...
    Optical discs are still quite available and are found in EVERY large office/electronics/supermarket store and online (where I get mine at discount in bulk).

    And good quality discs still last quite a long time, contrary to speculative anecdotes on the web.

    I can right now pop in a couple 14 year old DVD-Rs that I own and they still read/play/rip perfectly fine. Or some 16 year old pressed DVDs. Or some 19 year old CD-Rs. Or some 31 year old pressed CDs. It all depends on quality media and proper storage/handling. (I am NOT making those numbers up, either).

    The mechanics in an optical disc player are about as simple as mechanics can get (1 spinning motor, 1 stepper motor attached to a rack&pinion gear) and any High School level or higher engineer could put one together (with the correct parts & a manual). There won't be any shortage of working equipment, even if the market slows down drastically.

    I am really tired of all the 2nd-hand FUD spreading around. Just because you want it to be doesn't make it so.

    Scott
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Bullshit.
    Thank you for your considered and eloquent response. Most helpful.

    I don't care how simple the mechanics for driving optical discs are . They are still mechanics. They will fail.

    As for the longevity comparison for different media..... well I still have an audio cassette player, a vinyl disc player, and a VHS player.... all fascinating historical items, and great fun. But not serious contenders for the future reproduction of audio and video.
    It is inevitable that as optical discs begin to fade from their current dominant position as well, and join the ranks of the other historical media players I have described, there will be squeals of protest from those with a heavy involvement in the various optical disc formats... either professionally or as serious amateurs.
    Doesn't change the prognosis though.
    And swearing doesn't really help the cause very much?......
    Last edited by pippas; 8th May 2014 at 04:51.
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    Nice one, pippas. I see what you did there. You got called out for making patently absurd statements and you're trying to change the topic to insist that you were really talking about how everything wears out eventually. But anyway, you aren't the point of this thread and pchan isn't asking about buying DVD-RAM to keep stuff forever on it.

    By the way, you're hardly the first person to insist that all discs will be dead/unavailable in a few short years from now. I've heard the same thing about CD, which is actually pretty old technology now, yet audio CDs still exist, blanks still exist, CD players still exist, VCDs still exist, etc. So forgive me if I yawn and ignore your predictions as all evidence to date very strongly suggests that you will be completely and utterly wrong here.
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    Originally Posted by jman98 View Post
    So forgive me if I yawn and ignore your predictions as all evidence to date very strongly suggests that you will be completely and utterly wrong here.
    Thank you for taking the time to offer your advice. Much appreciated. At least you didn't feel the need to swear ... which is refreshing!
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    Originally Posted by pchan View Post
    OK folks. I have 2 DVD-RAM out of 500 disc which consist of CDR/RW and DVD +RW/-RW/+R/-R. Some -/+R and RW failed and majority of all CDRW failed. All my CDRs are OK. Maybe by chance that my 2 DVD-RAM are OK. I was thinking of getting more DVD-RAM but the price skyrocketed. Maybe I should consider USB Flash driver and cheaper too. Not sure of reliabilty though.
    I think USB flash drives are questionable for long-term storage as well, especially cheap no-name models. Most people here think that CD-R, or DVD+/-R with everything duplicated on hard drives, or multiple hard drives containing the same data, is the best we consumers can do at present.

    As far as who to believe here on the subject of optical media... Lordsmurf and Cornucopia are pros and both need to know quite a bit about optical media to make a living in their field.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 8th May 2014 at 09:02.
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  14. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Bullshit.
    Thank you for your considered and eloquent response. Most helpful.

    I don't care how simple the mechanics for driving optical discs are . They are still mechanics. They will fail.

    As for the longevity comparison for different media..... well I still have an audio cassette player, a vinyl disc player, and a VHS player.... all fascinating historical items, and great fun. But not serious contenders for the future reproduction of audio and video.
    It is inevitable that as optical discs begin to fade from their current dominant position as well, and join the ranks of the other historical media players I have described, there will be squeals of protest from those with a heavy involvement in the various optical disc formats... either professionally or as serious amateurs.
    Doesn't change the prognosis though.
    And swearing doesn't really help the cause very much?......
    Sure they will fail...and be replaced/repaired. Electronics fail, too. Failing is just part of life, doesn't mean that is THE END.

    I also have those same 3 (and more) analog media. However, they are - by their very analog nature - in the process of losing their quality, even when just sitting around being stored. And of course, every time they are accessed/played. And let's be honest, they weren't "pristine" to begin with. Digital optical discs, OTOH, ARE pristine to begin with (bad encoding/authoring notwithstanding). And being digital and with error correction, when they do start exhibiting errors on disc, one can easily rip and reburn to a new digital disc, CORRECTING the errors and RESTORING the data to its pristine state (assuming you get to it in time). Analog will lose quality with data migration, even when that migration is necessary. Digital (optical or otherwise) should NOT. That is the nature and benefit of digital: imperviousness to and isolation from the wear in the storage/transmission medium.

    Plus, optical discs have been smartly and foresightedly built with backward- and forward-compatibility. My 2013 LG BD writer can rip my (obsolete) 1999 VCD with ease and repurpose it in more modern forms. Without having to add-on or modify anything in hardware.

    That wasn't really swearing, just "calling it as I see it". Just like some cowboy would say "watch out" to a young lady who was about to step in a "pile of it" walking down the boulevard in the Old West. Just bein' polite, ma'am.

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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    As far as who to believe here on the subject of optical media... Lordsmurf and Cornucopia are pros and both need to know quite a bit about optical media to make a living in their field.
    While I'm sure that both of those posters you have named are expert in their field, they both probably fall into the category of folk to whom my earlier comment in post #10 was directed:

    'It is inevitable that as optical discs begin to fade from their current dominant position there will be squeals of protest from those with a heavy involvement in the various optical disc formats... either professionally or as serious amateurs.'

    And I'm sure your comment on whose advice is best accepted is well meant. Personally, I'm more inclined to go along with the manufacturers comments......

    Sony have stopped making optical drives altogether : http://www.sony-optiarc.us/

    and this more recent comment seems to add a little weight to my viewpoint: http://flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1398934265

    Of course optical media will survive for some considerable time. -- even vinyl disc players are still available for a surviving 'niche' market.

    I just feel personally that the optical disc will probably disappear from the mainstream rather sooner than you seem to think it will.

    But this is a public forum, and as such I'm sure there is room for other points of view...... hopefully, without recourse to any personal abuse?....
    Last edited by pippas; 8th May 2014 at 12:45.
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    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    As far as who to believe here on the subject of optical media... Lordsmurf and Cornucopia are pros and both need to know quite a bit about optical media to make a living in their field.
    While I'm sure that both of those posters you have named are expert in their field, they both probably fall into the category of folk to whom my earlier comment in post #10 was directed:

    'It is inevitable that as optical discs begin to fade from their current dominant position there will be squeals of protest from those with a heavy involvement in the various optical disc formats... either professionally or as serious amateurs.'
    That is a pretty disingenuous statement coming from someone who was personally offended by my criticism of people who use a nearly extinct form of optical media, DVD-RAM, for long term storage. ...and if all optical media is now as obsolete as you say, why did you recommend DVD-RAM in the first place? Backing away from your previous position are you?
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Backing away from your previous position are you?
    Uhhhh... no, not really??...... my original comment was in response to your initial statement in which you said 'this format is dying', referring to DVDRAM. You should have probably more accurately said 'the format is dying' - referring to optical discs in general.

    You went on to suggest that you had found DVDRWs to be more reliable than DVDRAM.

    I had found the reverse to be true, and said so....

    My own experience has shown DVDRAM to be much more reliable, and if the OP was going to continue to use re-writable DVDs in the immediate future, then that is the format I would recommend personally.
    As you quite rightly pointed out, it would be foolish to consider re-writable discs for long term storage. This initial request was about re-writable storage, not long term storage in general.

    i then made the fatal error of suggesting that, taking the longer view, optical discs in general might not be a good idea for long term storage, due to the decline in popularity already in progress. I should have realised - having been a member, and occasional poster, here for some 10 years - that suggesting the impending demise of the optical disc as a mainstream format on this particular forum would likely bring howls of derision. Which it did.

    Only to be expected......
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    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Backing away from your previous position are you?
    Uhhhh... no, not really??...... my original comment was in response to your initial statement in which you said 'this format is dying', referring to DVDRAM. You should have probably more accurately said 'the format is dying' - referring to optical discs in general.

    You went on to suggest that you had found DVDRWs to be more reliable than DVDRAM.

    I had found the reverse to be true, and said so....

    My own experience has shown DVDRAM to be much more reliable, and if the OP was going to continue to use re-writable DVDs in the immediate future, then that is the format I would recommend personally.
    As you quite rightly pointed out, it would be foolish to consider re-writable discs for long term storage. This initial request was about re-writable storage, not long term storage in general.

    i then made the fatal error of suggesting that, taking the longer view, optical discs in general might not be a good idea for long term storage, due to the decline in popularity already in progress. I should have realised - having been a member, and occasional poster, here for some 10 years - that suggesting the impending demise of the optical disc as a mainstream format on this particular forum would likely bring howls of derision. Which it did.

    Only to be expected......

    First DVD-RAM is reliable and suitable for long term storage, then suddenly it isn't, and not only that, all optical media is bad news. Now that someone has called you on this nonsense, DVD-RAM is a great super reliable and stable storage technology again, except in the longer term, not a good idea and not archival quality. Make up your mind or people will begin tho think you have lost it.

    Uhhh... the OP never mentioned that he needed re-writable media, only reliable media that was less expensive than DVD-RAM.

    DVD-RAM disc

    I was looking for this type of disc for quite awhile and found it but it cost S$18(US$14) for a double sided disc.
    I searched in Amazon, and the price is almost the same. This format is dying ?
    The main reason that I was looking for this format is reliability.

    Any cheaper alternatives ? Thanks in advance.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post

    First DVD-RAM is reliable and suitable for long term storage, then suddenly it isn't, and not only that, all optical media is bad news. Now that someone has called you on this nonsense, DVD-RAM is a great super reliable and stable storage technology again, except in the longer term, not a good idea and not archival quality. Make up your mind or people will begin tho think you have lost it.
    Well yes .. in my own experience DVDRAM has been - and continues to be - a reliable format.

    Long term?.... your guess is as good as mine. The original estimates for the longevity and reliability of many of the writable DVD formats have already proved to be a joke for many, many folk.

    Have I lost it?.....Well..... I think you maybe right... I'm certainly having trouble following some of your 'logic' in that last diatribe?......So yes, I think I've probably 'lost it'!

    So.... I wish you and your buddies good luck with your quest to keep optical media 'top of the heap' and 'mainstream' for as long as you need to.

    I just think you'll probably need the luck, if you have any of your own money involved in that venture...........
    Last edited by pippas; 8th May 2014 at 20:15.
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  20. Wait...which side are you taking?

    You keep conflicting your own argument.
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    Ok folks. I want to contribute to your discussion. I am a long term user of DVD-RAM discs and used they like a hard disc Always recording new files and everything looked OK. After some time, it started to occur this: i could read the already recorded files but as soon i record a new file, the disc become not readable and not recordable. It even can't be sensed by the drivers. As i use many computers with many kinds of disc drives, i replicated the test to several computers with the same results.

    As the phisical media is about 8 years old, i assumed that i reached the life spam of those discs. Concerning the normal DVD and CDs i have some of them recordded about 15 years ago but they are perfectly OK.

    The final decision is that i no longer use DVD-RAM.
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    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    Long term?.... your guess is as good as mine. The original estimates for the longevity and reliability of many of the writable DVD formats have already proved to be a joke for many, many folk.
    Which "estimates" are you referring to here? I've already given examples of discs that have lasted reliably:
    14 years (DVD-R)
    16 years (pressed DVD)
    19 years (CD-R)
    31 years (pressed CD)
    ...and here, let me take a look...
    12 years (DVD-RW and DVD+RW and DVD+R)
    17 years (CD-RW)

    I don't have any DVD-RAMs, mainly because that wasn't necessary for my workflow (but did use them fine all the time at the production house).

    Since most of those haven't been in existence much longer than the figures I've quoted, where is this "falling short" if they are still good at present? Maybe those "estimates" will still hold true once that time has actually elapsed.
    Again, examples of media crapping out can be traced back primarily to bad quality media to begin with, and also to bad storage/handling habits.

    Oh, BTW, yes I make a small amount of profit from working with optical media, but my skillset is broad enough that if it (optical media/drives) fell off the face of the earth tomorrow I would still make a good living. I just honestly think there are real good reasons for using them.
    If your experiences with optical media are unlike my success, I have to POLITELY and HUMBLY suggest that you re-evaluate your whole gestalt (media & drive purchasing choices, workflow & habits, etc).

    Also, "Sony Optiarc" is closing business, not because of the decline of optical stuff, but because they always were an ALSO-RAN in the business (both media and drives), they just lost money. I know, I've got a number of drives and my Sony is the only one which sometimes flakes out and can't even do a Laser OPC (LG, Samsung, Pioneer, "HP" and Yamaha and a few no-names doing just fine). And of my personal collection of recordables (~900 I would guess), I probably only have 10 Sony discs. They never even came close to TY, MAM-A or Verbatims.

    I'm curious, though: what will you do when all of your choices have been whittled down to just virtual/subscription-based downloads? What if the connection goes down? What if they like to keep jacking up the price? You will be beholden to the MAN. Physical media helps keep that at bay by democratizing usage decisions locally & privately. Food for thought.

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  23. Member
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    Personally and again this is only my personal experience with my Panasonic standalone DVD recorders, I've had TERRIBLE luck with RAM discs(Panasonic RAM discs). The only reason I still occasionally use them is because Panasonic(unlike some other mfgs.) made certain functions only available with RAM discs!
    When I was using them daily I'd have frequent failures on discs that were used <50 times, the failures were almost always during the initial HS burn from my HDD to the RAM disc, resulting in a corrupted title. Using the same discs if I instead did a initial realtime burn I could get the failures down to ~5%(still not good IMO) but better than the 10%+ failure rate I was getting with a HS burn. Oh and before anyone says anything, yes this was with multiple DVD recorders and the same DVDRs record to -R and -RW discs with a failure rate of <1%.
    I am NOT a fan of RAM discs, don't use RWs much either but when I do they generally work fine(never for long term storage though) -R discs make up the bulk of my disc usage. HDD storage may be the way to go for longer term storage(probably not flash drive) but I kind of worry about putting 400-500 DVDs on one HDD, if the HDD fails it would be a disaster.
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  24. Member
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Also, "Sony Optiarc" is closing business, not because of the decline of optical stuff, but because they always were an ALSO-RAN in the business (both media and drives), they just lost money. I know, I've got a number of drives and my Sony is the only one which sometimes flakes out and can't even do a Laser OPC (LG, Samsung, Pioneer, "HP" and Yamaha and a few no-names doing just fine). And of my personal collection of recordables (~900 I would guess), I probably only have 10 Sony discs. They never even came close to TY, MAM-A or Verbatims.
    The biggest POS DVD drive I've ever used in my life is the Optiarc that came with my iMac. It's completely and utterly unable to burn DL media, even the good Verbatim DVD+R DL ones. It's so bad that I would never buy one if given a choice, so I can personally confirm that their drives are crap.

    Sony media is notorious for its inconsistency with them using both the highest quality and the lowest quality manufacturers. I have no idea how you can tell which they used without opening a package and putting it in a PC to see who made it.

    There are always people who say that discs are dead or dying and streaming is the future. To those people, I suggest the following experiment. Are you a Netflix member? Try to stream The Hangover or Taken. I'm talking about the first movies in those series. Both films made a lot of money, so much that they spawned sequels. In fact, Taken 3 is currently in the works although The Hangover series seems to be done by now after The Hangover 3. This is a perfect example of why streaming is not the answer. You can't stream either film via Netflix no matter what you do.
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    One reason I still like using optical discs is that not everyone I know has a player to use with their TV that accepts USB sticks or USB hard drives. If someone in my family wants me to record a TV show for them or wants to borrow my recordings, optical media is the most convenient, inexpensive, and universally playable way to go.

    DVD-RAM is terrible in that respect too. It is was never cheap and it has always had poor compatibility compared to other DVD media types. None of the optical disc players I have looked at in recent years have DVD-RAM discs listed as playable media in their specs. Even Panasonic has apparently stopped making optical disc players (as opposed to recorders) with the ability to use DVD-RAM discs, although at one time their DVD players could play DVD-RAM discs recorded by their cameras and DVD recorders, and sometimes play files written to DVD-RAM by a PC.

    On the other hand DVD+/-RW and DVD+/-R media is readable in any recent DVD recorder, DVD player, or Blu-Ray player that I have ever tried it on, regardless of the make, as long as the disc was properly authored or finalized.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 9th May 2014 at 11:06.
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  26. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    To use any dye based writable media - one time or re-writable - for long term storage is almost certainly foolish. Apart from the (obvious) obsolescence problem with the players in the medium/ long term, the reality versus the marketing 'hype' for the reliability of dye based media has not been good.
    DVDRAM has fared best so far.. particularly for the number of re-write cycles. That's both from the specification, and from - in my own case - personal experience.
    You have your information all jumbled.
    - DVD-RAM/-RW/+RW is phase change materials. They're not at all reliable, sometimes not even for short-term.
    - DVD-R/+R is dye, and assuming good media is used, has a minimum longevity of 30-65 years (just like VHS tape did)

    The "media dying" stuff is all hogwash. You can only come to that conclusion if you head-in-sand about the science. (It's reminds me of the modern climate change argument. It's science vs. information pulled from a person's ass.)

    Fortunately, I have managed to avoid much of what 'Lord Smurf' has advised over the years -- and, for example, saved myself the grief of owning a dismally unreliable JVC DVD recorder he recommended for a long time. I also managed to ignore much of the nonsense he 'advised' concerning the use of Canopus ADVC converters.
    - Most all JVC recorders are still fine for users. At worst, you may have to change caps that die, as you will with many items. Sadly, most goobers throw good equipment like this away, instead of fixing it.
    - Canopus ADVC NTSC uses 4:1:1, which rapes non-shot color. The format was never meant for VHS conversion, only shooting. You could get away with it in PAL, but not NTSC.

    Reading the academic technical papers on the advantages of phase change optical recording techniques seems to make more sense to me.
    It sounds like you've only read the manufacturer BS, not independent analysis going back more than a decade. I find patent documents to be quite damning, as the manufacturers are not allowed to BS or fudge the data. Both dyes and phase change media patents are not kind to phase-change media at all. There's a reason that RW media never really existed for DVD DL and BD-R.

    As is often suggested, relying on any specific individual 'medium' for long term storage is unwise, and the long term future for optical discs in general is not looking good. The dismal failure of Blu-ray to successfully supersede DVD as a mainstream 'writable' format has shown that optical 'spinning discs' will likely follow HDD 'spinning discs' into obsolescence, sooner rather than later. So the concerns for long term DVD reliability are probably largely academic. In the shorter term, I would still personally recommend DVDRAM as the most reliable of the writable discs for the near future.
    You're one of those millennial generation kids, aren't you? The ones that think the latest whizbang gizmo obsolesces everything. Well, that's not how the world works. I find it amusing how you put "medium" in quotes, as if it were an alien term.

    - "spinning disks" (HDD) aren't going anywhere soon, and longevity is often 5-10 years. Disks are replaced for size reasons and connection type (IDE, SATA, etc) long before the actual drive goes tits up
    - Newer solid-state/SSD has longveity issues of its own, and can actually be worse than HDD. All it has going for it are faster speed and lower power consumption.
    - Blu-ray was a failure only in certain ways. For the video, it's superior for both SD and HD. The discs have many things going for them, and could last a decade or two. It has issues caused by the physical size and construction, and is not archival. On that we can agree. HD-DVD was a better choice for archiving. But it was too small (and Sony bribed everybody) and that format lost.
    - Blu-ray actually writes better (coasters less) than DVD, much like CD-R did in the mature years.

    I don't know where you're getting your info. It's jumbled, it's wrong.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 11th May 2014 at 04:26.
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  27. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Also, "Sony Optiarc" is closing business, not because of the decline of optical stuff, but because they always were an ALSO-RAN in the business (both media and drives)
    Sony had multiple drives and discs in their day.
    - drives = Sony (in-house), Samsung, Optiarc (forget offhand the two companies involved)
    - discs = Daxon, Taiyo Yuden, Ritek (good oxonol "F" discs, not "G" junk), MBI

    The Optiarc was always harder to find, and not worth it when you did. Pioneer is and was better for burning DVD and BD. (BenQ and Plextor to scan DVD, Liteon for BD.)

    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    T At least you didn't feel the need to swear !
    I need to dig out that old post from Baldrick.

    "Is swearing okay?"
    "I'm ******* fine with it." (edit: aww, he censored ****. What the ****!)

    ... or something like that. Classic VH.

    Calling it "swearing" always reminds me of the little religious biddies I knew growing up. It's more accurately called (informally) "cussing" or (formally) "profanity". To swear is to make a promise.

    Originally Posted by jman98 View Post
    Sony media is notorious for its inconsistency with them using both the highest quality and the lowest quality manufacturers. I have no idea how you can tell which they used without opening a package and putting it in a PC to see who made it.
    Taiyo Yuden = fine
    Daxon Taiwan = fine
    Daxon Malaysia = crap
    Ritek/Fuji = fine
    MBI = crap

    There is not a "Sony" any more than there's a Memorex. It's just a brand. Most of the Sony discs were fine, but you'd get dud non-Taiwan locations, especially the ones sold at Walmart and drug stores. Location matters. The Taiwan discs were almost always fine.
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 11th May 2014 at 04:38. Reason: commented on ****
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    I don't know where you're getting your info. It's jumbled, it's wrong.
    Thank you for taking the time to make your comments, and offer your advice.

    As I said at the end of post #17..... only to be expected. Probably wrong, but entirely as expected....

    Of course spinning discs will survive for a while yet. Examples of those going right back 100 years or more are still found in whole variety of 'niche' markets, so modern optical discs probably have a while to go yet.

    But, as a mainstream format I would guess the time is probably shorter than many folk expect. Certainly shorter than Sony expected, or they wouldn't have invested so much cash in Blu-ray.....

    As for the change from HDD to SDD?.... Again, inevitable .. no one will want to manufacture mechanical devices to read spinning discs for any longer than they have to. Time scale?... that of course is the $64,000 question... but it will happen.

    There are many different views on this subject, so someone is going to be right, and someone is not. We shall see who in due course.....
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    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    As for the change from HDD to SDD?.... Again, inevitable .. no one will want to manufacture mechanical devices to read spinning discs for any longer than they have to. Time scale?... that of course is the $64,000 question... but it will happen.

    There are many different views on this subject, so someone is going to be right, and someone is not. We shall see who in due course.....
    You'll be wrong. SSDs and HDDs will coexist until another technology comes along that can replace both of them. SSD latency and data errors increase substantially as drive size increases, which means SSDs are unlikely to replace conventional HDDs as large data storage drives, unless there are some radical and completely unexpected improvements in NAND technology. Plus, HDDs are far better for ordinary computer users. They are both less expensive and more forgiving, especially for people who over-fill their drives.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post

    SSDs and HDDs will coexist until another technology comes along that can replace both of them. .
    And that 'other technology' - whatever it turns out to be - will not involve spinning discs......it will be solid state......

    Until then, the HDDs will slowly fade away and the SSDs will continue to get cheaper, and become more dominant in the market place.

    It's called evolution.......
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