Dr HDMI Question

[barnsbury]

Right, I get it, finally - LOL.

I cannot do on the PC what I was doing on the dreambox....sigh Very disappointing

Can someone please suggest a PCI card that would be most suitable for my needs. I would need a card with hardware encoding. Which lossless codec should I use? And how much HDD space should I expect to use?

Thank you again!

[DB83]

AFAIK A dreambox did no conversion. All it did was store the raw stream in whatever codec was sent and wrap that in a .ts container.

A $ky+ Box, or any PVR, does the same sort of thing unless the box specifically has a re-encode option

[usually_quiet]

So, when I recorded the HD broadcasts in .ts on my dreambox - the file was already compressed? In media info - the ts file is H264 with 13 Mbs bitrate - and the filesizes were approx 5 GB for a 1 hour broadcast.

I dont think the dreambox was encoding or compressing - as you say, the broadcast signal was already compressed into H264.

So, what do I need to do, to accomplish the same with a capture card? Can I just capture the already compressed signal and not encode/compress again? Would the resulting filesize be the same as the dreambox ts files?

I am very sorry for all these noob questions.

Many thanks

I admit that I don't know all that much about satellite TV in the UK, other than the fact that they are broadcast as H.264 video and some channels are free while others are operated by paid services and require a conditional access module or a receiver for reception. (Here in the US, all satellite service is paid, and nearly all satellite broadcasts are encrypted and a receiver from one of the paid services is required for viewing.)

For paid channels, I don't think there is any other choice than to use a PC capture device with your receiver, however I have seen PC satellite tuners available for free satellite channels at Hauppauge's UK website, if that is of any use to you. A PC satellite tuner card/device can capture the original signal as a .ts file. This is one: http://www.hauppauge.co.uk/site/products/data_novahds2.html

[barnsbury]

Yes, that is correct. But, recent changes have meant that dreamboxes can no longer receive all HD channels, and an official box must be used, which is why I am now having to get a capture card.

[barnsbury]

Would this be any good? http://www.amazon.co.uk/AverMedia-61C9850000AE-Avermedia-Live-Gamer/dp/B007SRYAPO/ref=pd_ybh_4

[barnsbury]

http://gamerzone.avermedia.com/game_capture/live_gamer_hd

[barnsbury]

This is the Lite Edition which is much cheaper - cant see any major difference though - http://gamerzone.avermedia.com/game_capture/live_gamer_hd_lite

[jagabo]

The Lite Edition is probably suitable for your needs. You don't need the extra software to add live commentary and stream to the internet.

You might also look into the Live Gamer Portable. It records directly on SD cards. No computer needed to record. You can later transfer the files to your PC, NAS, whatever.

I don't have direct experience with any of those devices.

[barnsbury]

Thanks very much. Can you tell me which lossless codec to use in order to compress into .h264 video? I need a bit rate of around 13 Mbps - 5 GB per hour. Is this possible?

[jagabo]

Thanks very much. Can you tell me which lossless codec to use in order to compress into .h264 video?

You don't use lossless codecs to encode h.264 video. You use lossless codecs to encode uncompressed video.

I need a bit rate of around 13 Mbps - 5 GB per hour. Is this possible?

Just set the capture device to capture at 13 Mb/s.

[barnsbury]

Can you tell me which codecs are lossless, and how approx how big the file size would be for 1 hour of 13Mbs HD video?

[usually_quiet]

Can you tell me which codecs are lossless, and how approx how big the file size would be for 1 hour of 13Mbs HD video?

The 13Mbs refers to the Avermedia Live Gamer HD's hardware H.264 encoder's bitrate setting for output. Capture using lossless codecs won't be possible with anything in the Avermedia Live Gamer HD product line, as the device can only do hardware H.264 video encoding, and re-encoding from H.264 to a lossless video format would be a waste of time and effort. You couldn't really improve the video much (if at all) and there are decent frame-accurate editors capable of handling H.264 video.

HuffYUV, Lagarith, and the UT Video codecs are lossless video formats, and HD video encoded with them would consume somewhere between 120 and 130 GB/hour on your hard drive. ....but you would need to buy a capture device that uses software encoding, like the AVerMedia DarkCrystal HD Capture SDK C727 or the AVerMedia AVerTV HD-DVR C027 to use them. You would also then need to re-encode from the lossless capture format to H.264 or something else to permanently store and enjoy your recordings, which will probably take more time than you expect.

[barnsbury]

OK, I have ordered the AverMedia Gamer HD Lite. I will receive on Friday from Amazon, and will test. I will report back here with my findings!

Thank you all for help, it is much appreciated

[jagabo]

Though it's pointless, just to answer your question, re-encoding 1920x1080 25 fps video with Lagarith in YV12 mode will give you something around 100 to 150 GB/hr.

[badyu17]

@barnsbury

Don't want to confuse you further but since you already ordered it please report if you can capture in 1080i since HDTV channels like Sky broadcast in 1080i50 in Europe. Maybe it's just missing info on their site but on specification page for AverMedia Gamer HD Lite under standards it says:

Input/ Pass-through: 1920 x 1080 (50i), 1920 x 1080 (60i), 1920 x 1080 (24p), 1920 x 1080 (25p), 1920 x 1080 (30p), 1920 x 1080 (50p), 1920 x 1080 (60p)

Capture: 1920 x 1080 (25p), 1920 x 1080 (30p), 1920 x 1080 (24p), 1920 x 1080 (25p), 1920 x 1080 (30p), 1920 x 1080 (25p), 1920 x 1080 (30p)

If I understood what they claim by this:

Satellite box input 1920 x 1080 (50i) > HDMI splitter > Capture Card > 1920 x 1080 (25p)

Does this mean that the card will first deinterlace the signal and then record it progressive at half rate? I hope this info is false and they didn't update it.

[jagabo]

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall reading that some of the Avermedia device always deinterlace. That would be catastrophic for NTSC 1080i but ok for most film material in PAL broadcasts.

[badyu17]

Exactly jabago, watching football or any sports deinterlaced to 25p is pain in the butt, 50hz fluid motion is gone. For series and films it's not a problem. On their site only Game Capture HD II is mentioned as able to record interlaced signal as it is. Maybe their hw encoder only accepts progressive? After all, these cards are made for gaming specifically, maybe they thought it's not needed anymore.

[barnsbury]

Yes, I will check if it can capture interlaced. I will capture mostly sports in 1080i 25fps from Sky UK and I need the file to remain interlaced.

If it only captures progressive, then I will have to send the card back. And then I would be back at square one

I am amazed that the only card I could find with a hw encoder was a gamer card. Ridiculous.

[jagabo]

There are several devices with hardware encoders that can capture interlaced. Off the top of my head: Hauppague HD PVR 1, 2, Gamer, Rocket, Colossus; ElGato Game Capture HD. I've seen a lot of others at ebay.com and Amazon.com USB 2.0 or 3.0 works just fine with hardware encoding.

[barnsbury]

OK, So I tested the Avermedia Gamer HD Lite.

And, it is already on its way back to Amazon for a refund!

It automatically de-interlaces 1080i > 1080p 25 fps

Though the PQ was pretty good, the motion on the sports action was not smooth. And having been so used to 1080i captures on the dreambox all these years, this did not come anywhere near. So, it is disappointing.

I am now going to order this as in the Specs it says it says it can capture in 1080i - http://www.elgato.com/en/gaming/game-capture-hd

Is this okay? The only problem with it is its only USB 2.0 and I wanted 3.0. But, I will test and see how it performs.

Can anyone recommend a better device? Or shall I just stick with this one?

Thanks

[DB83]

Before you sent it back, did you check other $ky channels ? Surprised if the box does not output hdcp over hdmi.

[barnsbury]

Yes. I checked. No channels from Sky box would capture. It gave a message "Cannot capture protected by HDCP"

Not even the FTA BBC channels would work.

No issues from the dreambox though

[DB83]

So you were capturing from the dreambox over hdmi ? Are you certain that this really is an interlacing issue and not your system being unable to keep up and thus dropped frames.

Can you upload a short sample of the capture (unless you dumped it) ?

BTW usb 2.0 is not a issue. Your system must still be able to capture without dropping frames. Very few details about your system. How many HDDs do you have inside it.

[barnsbury]

Yes, I can upload the .ts file but where to?

I have lots of HDDs in my PC but my PC is pretty new year - 1yr old and is high spec -

Intel® Six Core i7-3930K (3.2GHz @ max 4.6GHz)
ASUS® SABERTOOTH X79: SOCKET 2011, R.O.G
16GB KINGSTON HYPERX GENESIS QUAD-DDR3 1600MHz X.M.P(4 x 4GB KIT)
2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 660 Ti - 2 DVI, HDMI, DP - 3D Vision Ready

[barnsbury]

Yes captures over HDMI from dreambox - there were no dropped frames

[DB83]

The sample was but a suggestion. If you are happy that you have dropped not frames in the capture from the dreambox - the system certainly appears to be fine - then so be it. Just capture to any HDD that is NOT the boot/OS drive.

You could upload up to 100 meg as an attachment direct to this topic. Anything larger would have to be sent to a file-hoster and you just provide the download link

[barnsbury]

Here is 100 MB file from the captured video.

Let me know what you think.

[DB83]

I am probably the worst judge of these things since my eyes are crap.

I found it quite acceptable played in WMP and VLC.

The only thing that bothers me is the AR. I would have expected 1920*1080 to fill by HD monitor whereas there are very thick pillar-box bars.

All quite irrelevant of course since the card has been returned.

[barnsbury]

If you compared to a proper 1080i raw stream cap. Big difference.

And I am a perfectionist.

[badyu17]

Yeah, don't understand why they don't support capturing interlaced, the quality of their deinterlace job is pretty bad, even the Sky logo doesn't look good, it has ugly contours, same thing with other graphics on screen, a lot of zigzag artifacts that you can see everywhere, even around the players.

Other than that, compression is alright, Sky Sports uses high bit-rate so even bad encoders can't mess that kind of quality easily. But I noticed some stuff about these hw encoders on capture cards, for example they don't use b frames at all, mediainfo says only 1 ref frame and no CABAC, which is weird. It seems these encoders are just using a lot of bit-rate to cover for the lack of some standard H.264 features.

edit: hmm, it looks a little nicer on VLC, smoother edges, with MPC-HC and LAV video it looked jagged around the edges. Anyway, it should be interlaced capture.