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  1. Hello,
    I am using a Panasonic MiniDV player to transfer old MiniDV tapes into my PC via firewire. While the video looks good, the audio sounds "tinny/metallic" as if there is some sort of distortion at certain frequencies. The LED lights on the MiniDV player tell me that the audio is "12bit, Stereo 1" , and I had read online that most software captures at 16bit. Could this be the problem, even though there is no drop out of audio?
    Are there any programs that allow me to change the input source to record 12bit?

    thanks
    BT
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  2. Member hech54's Avatar
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    If the camera was set to record @ 12bit you are out of luck.
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  3. so you are saying that there is no way to capture the audio in any program... even if I use RCA cables out of my deck into PC?
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    12 bit is exceedingly odd. I'm not a camcorder guy, but I've never heard of anything using that before. I'd guess that at that setting, it's probably using very low bit rate and/or low sampling rates. 22.1 MHz sampling wouldn't surprise me at all, which is going to make it sound like you describe. Or bit rates of 64 or maybe even 32 Mbps. You can't fix those kinds of problems.
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  5. Yea. it is 12bit @ 32khz That was the default setting for the original MiniDV camcorders when they first came out.
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    32 kHz 12 bit is a lesser-used DV audio standard and most capture software should be able to handle it (including WInDV). However, if you're set to 48 kHz 16 bit and the sound is actually 32 kHz 12 bit,you're more likely to be hearing nothing. "Tinny" may be a different kind of problem.
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  7. Is WinDV the same program that comes with Windows Vista (like Movie Maker)... or is it a different program? I could give that one a try. Does it let you change the input setting to 12bit?
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    WinDV is a small, excellent, standalone DV capture utility -- well-liked around here.

    http://www.videohelp.com/tools/WinDV

    It hasn't been updated in 11 years because neither has DV.
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    32 kHz audio is going to sound like crap no matter what you do. You WILL hear artifacts in it. There's not really anything you can do. With a good audio editor you might be able to make it suck a little less, but it will always sound like crap no matter what you do. I don't think the 12bit is really the issue here. It's not helping but the 32 kHz is mostly the reason why the audio sucks, not the 12 bit. If you had 12 bit audio at 44.1 kHz I suspect it would sound OK, but I'd have to test it to know for sure.
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  10. I guess it wont hurt to download it and give it a try when i get home tonight. I don't expect my audio to sound like a professional WAV file.. but I was hoping to at least have a normal sounding audio without that "tinny" sound. The audio sounds fine until it hits certain spots or frequencies. I'd say out of every 30sec of video... it sounds fine for about 25sec, and then hits that annoying "tin" sound for 5 sec, and then goes back to normal. It doesn't sound like that when I play it through the TV with RCA cords.
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  11. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    No, 12bit is bad in it's own right, as well as the 32kHz. 32kHz samplerate means your max supported frequency is 16kHz, which is low enough to be noticeable to most people under ~50. 12bit means only 4096 levels of fineness and 72dB of dynamic range, whereas 16bit has 65k levels of fineness and 96dB. Noticeable difference also. Remember, it's only 1/2 way better than 8bit audio, and you KNOW how bad that sounds!

    What you're talking about, though, sounds more like comb-filtering (aka flanging without the cyclicality, or supershort echo). Don't know WHY just capturing the audio (along with the video) would be doing that...can you explain in detail your whole process? Maybe something is badly transcoding. Or maybe, since one of the reasons for using 12/32 in the first place was to enable 4channel use, there are additional channels interacting?

    If going out through RCA cables fixes the problem, maybe you should be double-ly capturing: 1 pass DV (V+A), one pass audio-only (D->A->D). If you don't have TOO many tapes, it might be worth the hassle (you will have to work at syncing up again in post in order to replace the audio).

    Scott
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 24th Apr 2014 at 15:38.
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  12. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    your best bet to capture the audio as recorded on the tape is to use winDV. start winDV set it up the way you want but don't use it to start playing the tape. use the camera controls to start playing the tape then use the record button in winDV to start the capture.

    default dv audio is 16bit/48khz stereo. secondary choice was 12bit/32khtz 4 channel. so some programs tend to get 12bit wrong and record it as 16bit making it sound weird.
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  13. Thanks for all of the suggestions.

    Aedipuss: Is there a way to change WinDV so it accepts my 12bit/32khz signal?

    Cornucopia: My process is... I have a Panasonic Dv-2000 deck which plays the MiniDV tape, and I am using a Firewire connecting to my old laptop which has the firewire port. I have tried using Windows Movie Maker which came with the computer. When I plug in the firewire, it detects my DV deck and I select "Transfer tape manually". (I tried to select "Transfer Entire Tape Automatically" one time, but it didn't seem to work). I click "Play" on the DvDeck and "Start Process" on the MovieMaker. The end result is a nice looking video, but those problems with the audio. When the Dv deck is playing, I do a see a set of LED lights which say "12bit" and "Stereo 1". If I remember looking online at a manual, it indicated that the deck plays back the audio at the rate that the tape was recorded at, and 12bit on there is equal to 12bit @ 32khz.

    I also last night tried to run the firewire video into laptop whil eat same time running the RCA outputs into my desktop (Adobe Audition), and still had that same problem. Adobe Audition uses 16bit @ 44khz... so maybe thats why?

    PS: Its a shame I even have to use this old laptop, because I actually have a new desktop with Adobe, PowerDirector, and every other editing and burning software.. however, it has no firewire port.

    One other note... on my Dvdeck there is an audio button which can change those LED's to read Stereo 1 and Stereo 2 during playback.. but no way to switch it to the 16bit.
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  14. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    WMM might be hardcoded to where, like was mentioned above, it can only cap at 16/48 or 16/44 and is "interpolating" the 12/32 signal. Not sure. Regardless, WMM is fairly mediocre as a capping app.

    Audio coming out to the RCA jacks is ANALOG. So whatever your analog card captures it as is how it becomes digitally. This shouldn't affect ANYTHING about the quality coming in (within reason).

    But, do us a favor, connect your cam directly to your TV via the RCA cabling ONLY. Play the tape: does it sound "tinny" on the TV? If so, it is a problem with the recording and there is NOTHING (within reason) you can do to fix it. There may be some advanced things that could be done, and it might do to post a short clip of the sound here for us to try our hand with. But otherwise, NOTHING.

    If it sounds OK on your TV, it ought to sound OK on your PC's audio (when going via RCA->AudioCard->AdobeAudition). If it does sound OK on your TV and DOESN'T sound OK on your PC, there is something with your PC's audio system set up incorrectly.

    You can, of course buy an add on Firewire card for your new desktop for quite cheap!

    re:Stereo1 and Stereo2,
    As mentioned before, 12/32 supports 4 channels of audio. When transferring via DV/Firewire, all 4 channels should be being transferred. However, monitoring is a different matter, and some DV apps aren't codec to expect more than 2 channels, so that switch is a toggle switch to be able to monitor Ch1 & Ch2 vs. Ch3 & Ch4. I have seen this switch on many DV devices and am familiar with it. It has nothing to do with 16bit (which by spec is only able to do 2 channels).

    Scott
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  15. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    decks with that stereo 1/2 switch had to capture the tape twice to get all 4 channels. once set to 1 once set to 2.

    winDV will automatically capture 12/32 if it's playing before capture is started. the problem is mostly with tapes that had been re-used. the cam would start playing 16/48 if that was what first recording was set at and then the real video on the tape would switch to 12/32 and winDV (and all other capture apps) would stay locked to 16/48 causing the audio mismatch.

    so if you do as i mentioned before. start the camera playing the tape, wait until the video you want to capture starts playing then click on the capture button in winDV, it will capture 12/32 if that is what is on the tape.
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  16. Ok.. I am an idiot, yet at the same time this still is strange.

    So I played the MiniDV deck into my TV via RCA cables, and the sound actually does sound "tinny" there as well. Here is what is strange, and what confused me in the first place. Try to follow me...

    The first transfer I did about a week ago, I used my DvDeck and played it into my Sony Stand Alone DVD Recorder via RCA, and the sound was fine. I then decided to try firewire using the PC because I heard it gives you better video quality with MiniDV. The first firewire transfer and the 5 after that all had the "tinny" sound. I played my first transfer (the good one using RCA stand alone recorder) by putting the DVD into the PC and into a DVD player and it sounded fine... and kept wondering why the firewire ones sounded awful. I just now put the original MiniDV (good one) in the deck and played it through the TV, and is does sound "tinny" even though the DVD did not. Basically... to make a long story short... somehow when I actually burn the file to DVD, it fixed the "tinny" sound. Im not sure how that is possible, or if its a coincidence... but the one "tinny" file that I burned is the one that sounds fine, while all of the other files I tested are the .AVI files which haven't been burned yet. I am going to take one of these other 5 "tinny" ones and burn one, and see if I get the same result.
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  17. Member turk690's Avatar
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    I don't know if it's too much to ask but figure out a way of snipping out a portion of that video with and without the "tinny" sound, post it here, and we can hear for ourselves.
    Stop feeling suicidal just because he unfriended you on fezbuk.
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  18. I just burned the "tinny" sounding one, and it still sounds bad.. so I guess that wasn't it. Being that the only one that does not sound bad came from the one that I recorded with RCA from Dv Deck to Sony Stand Alone VDR, it has to be something in the firewire transfer. Im gonna try windv.
    Somehow the RCA transfer to the Sony Stan Alone seems to give me the best results, when in reality it shouldn't. Even the video looks pretty much as good as the firewire.
    I'll try to get a clip and upload. What format can I use to upload on here.. or where do I host it??
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  19. I think I uploaded both. "Tinny" one is form firewire to PC... "goodone" is straight to Stand Alone DVD recorder. same clips
    Attached Files
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  20. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    I am away ATM, so cannot check, but by any chance might this be a case of in-phase vs out-of-phase?

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  21. im not sure what that means
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  22. Member turk690's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by borntalent View Post
    I think I uploaded both. "Tinny" one is form firewire to PC... "goodone" is straight to Stand Alone DVD recorder. same clips
    "Tinny" is not the adjective used to describe this. The analogue out of the DV deck (and the analogue input of the DVD recorder) are appropriately handled and the sound is sampled and recorded 16/48k, as it is on the "good" clip.
    The original DV file transferred by firewire to the PC still has 12/32k (which isn't "bad" or "tinny"), and the "tinny" sound is the result of the less-than-glorious capabilities of certain media players and audio hardware combinations as they upsample from 12/32k to 16/48k or 44k on the fly. You can check this out by using a variety of media players to view file (wmp, mpc, vlc, real, etc) and hear that it is less "tinny" in some, more in others. Resampling audio to and from different bit levels is an ardous task that requires a lot of computing power on the fly. I suspect the "tinny" part is a deliberate result of just plonking down the 12bits onto either the least or most significant part of the 16bit width, not actually interpolating the correct values in between the lsb and msb of that.
    Solution is to deliberately set the PC audio hardware setting to 12/32k (32k could probably be handled correctly, not sure about the 12bit), or extract the audio from file and reconvert it separately to 16/48k, then remuxing it again. Offline re-quantization with most audio editors (audition, audacity, reaper, etc) has the luxury of actually computing for the correct bits in between lsb and msb as they convert 12 to 16 (though how they do so, which determines quality of result, is debated). There are more pitfalls in going from 12 to 16, than, say, from 32 to 16, so you got your work cut out for you.
    Stop feeling suicidal just because he unfriended you on fezbuk.
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    Agree with Turk. Incorrect interpolation. Here's what your 12 bit and analogue -> 16 bit waveforms look like up close.

    Name:  12bit.png
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    Last edited by smrpix; 25th Apr 2014 at 08:33.
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  24. I'm not an expert when it comes to this stuff, so I'm not sure what all of the terms you described mean... but I get the gist of it.
    I had also experimented by using the RCA to transfer the audio from my DvDeck to my desktop (which is actually a new desktop) by using Adobe Audition... and I still got the "tinny" sound. Is it the setting that I am capturing the audio at in Adobe?
    I can always use firewire to capture the video, and use the RCA to capture the audio and match them up... but what would be the best program and/or audio import setting to capture at? I currently have Audacity, Adobe Audition, Movie Maker, Premier Pro, and PowerDirector.

    PS: Is it possible to rip just the audio from the DVD? For example, can I take the "good" version DVD from my Stand Alone and take the audio from that DVD, and then insert it into one of my editing programs and line it up with the video?

    Thanks
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    If you must do it from separate sources, Premiere Pro is your best bet. If you're using the CC version (and it may go back one or two before that) you can even create a "multi-camera sequence" have it automatically sync by audio.
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  26. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Finally got to hear those both on a normal/good system - It sounds to me like there could be ALIASING going on in the "tinny" example, in addition to the 12bit "granularity". Aliasing is intermodulation distortion caused by lower sideband reverse harmonics, or, if your sample rate is 32k then that means that your highest good, passed frequency is just shy of 16kHz. But what happens to the frequencies that are HIGHER than 16kHz? Such as 17, 18, 19, and up to ~20kHz (not that there ought to be much signal left there). In a GOOD system, an anti-aliasing filter will just cut those out ahead of time so they aren't part of the remaining equation.
    But if there is no AA filter, what happens is that any frequency higher than 16k (= Nyquist freq = 1/2 Samplerate) will have it's frequency folded down below the Nyquist. So 17.5kHz = 1.5kHz higher than 16kHz. That 1.5kHz is now subtracted from 16kHz, giving a brand new 14.5kHz signal ADDED to the remaining good signal. And there is no real good way to ever get this out again! BTW, this is similar to the additional artifacts output by a "ring modulator", for those who have ever used one of those. And I won't even go into the possibility that this could continue ad infinitum folding back up and back down again, etc.

    I truly hope that I'm wrong on this and that you can salvage your work by finding a good audio app that can properly recognize the 12/32 stream(s) and upsample the 12/32 to 16/48 with good SRC filtering. Otherwise, I think you are screwed.

    BTW, I do see that your "tinny" sample is recognized by MediaInfo as being DV-AVI, Type1, with 12bit, 32kHz and 4channels, while the "good" sample is DV-AVI, Type1 <edit>Type2</edit>, with 2channels of 16/48. Not sure if you got to the 16/48 because of your DVD-recorder, or because that tape WAS recorded in 16/48 or because the DVCam stayed stuck at 16/48 regardless or something else. Maybe it needs to be "tricked" (or tricked AGAIN).

    Only way to truly tell would be to check those tapes with a completely different system (one that was able to correctly navigate between 16/48/2ch and 12/32/4ch, etc). How many tapes do you have? Maybe it would be best if you sent them to a production/transfer house (one that has pro DV decks that can read all signal types).

    Scott
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 25th Apr 2014 at 16:37.
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  28. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    To comment on that former thread: MediaInfo has thankfully since been updated to describe WHICH portion the audio is being taken from (whether Type1 or Type2). For Type1 DV, it says of audio, "Muxing Mode: DV, Muxing mode, more info: Muxed in Video #1", for Type2 DV, it only mentions format, etc. No mention of Mux mode. This makes it clear whether you are looking at Type1 vs. Type2 audio, and because Type1 cannot be changed (as it is incorporated within the DV stream), you know that any change to it's expected Samplerate & Bitdepth is not based on padding but on a misreading by the interface/app of the incoming stream. As was mentioned in that previous thread, Type2 can be padded.

    Note that I made a mistake in my quick assessment of those posted files. The tinny sample was DV Type1, the good sample was DV Type2. Unfortunately, because, in the change of a file to being a Type1 to Type2 the stream header is also changed from [IVAS] to [VIDS], MediaInfo only now sees the SEPARATE audio stream generated by the Type2 app. It cannot or will not even look for the STILL EXISTING audio stream muxed into the video stream, because it now only sees it as video, and all that other stuff in there must be "garbage", right? So it is impossible to tell from MediaInfo whether that "good sound" sample avi has retained a 12/32 rate or was originally also a 16/48. That could have been a good clue to help solve this puzzle.

    Wait a minute...OK, so I used DVDate to convert the goodsound clip from Type2 back to Type1. What I find is that the original audio in the muxed stream is also 16/48. And it still sounds good.

    My best guess right now is that, like in that previous thread, you actually ought to have 16/48 as your original audio stream, but that for some reason, probably because the tape may have been used before at 12/32, it defaults on capture to 12/32 and mis-tracks the audio, creating aliasing and dropping the resolution down to granular 12bit. So the fix might be a matter of making sure the cam is presenting 16/48 correctly all the time and convincing the app to capture that way. Hmmm...

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  29. I'm actually not using a cam to play this... I am using a professional Panasonic DV-2000 MiniDV deck. When I press play, it tells me that it is a 12bit@32khz.
    I don't think there is anyway to change that on the deck... the manual reads that it plays whatever the rate that the video was actually recorded at.
    So are you saying that the Firewire to laptop is keeping it at 12bit@32khz, while my Stand Alone DVD recorder is changing it to 16bit@48khz when using RCA cables?? If that is the case, wouldn't I be able to run the Deck via RCA cable to my desktop and capture the audio on Adobe Audition or Audacity at 16bit/48khz?


    Ok.. just dropped both videos into Premiere Pro and noticed that the "tinny video" come up as "16bit/32khz" where as the good clip comes up as "16/48khz". It seems as if the Stand Alone DVD Recorder is capturing at 16/48 somehow ... but firewire is only capturing at 32khz.
    Last edited by borntalent; 25th Apr 2014 at 22:30.
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    12/32 or 16/48 are valid. 16/32 is not. Best guess, the deck is trying too hard to "correct" errors. That model was known for distorted playback during cueing.
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