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  1. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2014
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    Hello!

    I'm a newbie here trying to learn all this stuff and I have a question about video sources that come from an NTSC DVD that are interlaced. What is the best way to make these play as progressive video?

    Does running it through Handbrake and turning the deinterlaced option on make that video progressive? Does the same go from the decombing option in Handbrake as well?

    Also, does NTSC DVDs play two kinds of FPS, correct? 23.976 FPS and 29.97? If so, which is the preferred FPS for progressive video?


    Thanks in advance!
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  2. Originally Posted by runlouierun View Post
    Also, does NTSC DVDs play two kinds of FPS, correct? 23.976 FPS and 29.97?
    No, all NTSC DVDs output interlaced 29.97fps (really 59.94 fields per second). That makes your main question unanswerable except to say, "It depends." Can you provide a short sample from the source?

    I don't use Handbrake so someone else may be able to answer the question about its use. Of course, using a deinterlacer will make a video progressive but that's often the wrong thing to do.
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  3. Member hech54's Avatar
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    What is this obsession with something as confusing and unimportant as interlaced/progressive.....especially with newbies? Who keeps putting this crap into their heads?
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  4. I would have thought knowing whether to deinterlace or to remove pulldown, and how to do it properly, would be fairly important when re-encoding.

    https://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/DeinterlacingGuide

    https://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/Telecine

    If the video is purely interlaced, I'd set the output frame rate to 29.970 (constant) and enable either the de-interlace filter (slower) or decomb filter (default). Or, for smoother motion, I'd set the output to 59.940 (constant) and choose "bob" as either the de-interlacing or decomb method. The former should give you 29.970fps progressive, and the latter 59.940fps progressive.

    If the video is purely telecined, then I'd set the output frame rate to 23.976 (constant) and enable the Detelecine filter.

    https://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/VariableFrameRate
    "The solution is to leave everything at the speed it was meant to play at. 30fps for 30fps stuff, 24fps for 24fps stuff. Leave the soft telecined parts progressive, detelecine the hard telecined parts to be progressive. When this is done within one movie file, it's called variable frame rate. The frames per second vary between 24 and 30. A place for everything, and everything in its place."

    Maybe a Handbrake user could offer some advice as to how they determine if the video is interlaced or telecined in order to deinterlace correctly. Or if the video happens to be a combination of the two, how to handle it.

    "Check the VFR box in HandBrake for Mac, or use the --vfr flag on the CLI.
    This will automatically enable the detelecine filter. It also activates the code for detelecine to drop extra frames."


    I get the impression for a mixture of interlaced and telecined, the "Handbrake method" of dealing with it would be to enable the decomb filter, select same as source and variable for the output frame rate, and you'll end up with a detelecined and deinterlaced output with a variable frame rate. I think I'd prefer to convert it all to a constant frame rate myself, but using a variable frame rate seems to be the way Handbrake prefers to do it.
    Last edited by hello_hello; 8th Apr 2014 at 19:55.
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  5. Originally Posted by runlouierun View Post

    Also, does NTSC DVDs play two kinds of FPS, correct? 23.976 FPS and 29.97? If so, which is the preferred FPS for progressive video?
    If you video is really interlace (in lots of cases it turns out it is not) and you want to make it progressive,
    -you need to bob deinterlace it to 59.94p fps. Because we are talking about SD resolution you need very good deinterlacer like QTGMC.
    -You can leave it interlace
    -if you deinterlace to 29.97p, video is kind of ruined, you can use it for web but otherwise not a good way how to treat your original
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  6. Member
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Originally Posted by runlouierun View Post
    Also, does NTSC DVDs play two kinds of FPS, correct? 23.976 FPS and 29.97?
    No, all NTSC DVDs output interlaced 29.97fps (really 59.94 fields per second). That makes your main question unanswerable except to say, "It depends." Can you provide a short sample from the source?
    It's a general question so I don't have a sample right now of anything specific.

    So if NTSC DVD output 29.97, what's 23.976? HD? What's the difference between that and 24fps? Are 30fps, 24fps and 23.976 all just HD speeds?

    Are 29.97fps and 59.94 the same thing?

    You said you don't use Handbrake. What do you use instead?
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  7. Originally Posted by runlouierun View Post
    It's a general question so I don't have a sample right now of anything specific.
    Sure, but the answer to the question posed in the thread title depends on the kind of material. It might be true interlaced 29.97fps (shot on video), hard telecined film encoded as interlaced 29.97fps, film encoded as progressive 23.976fps with pulldown flags set to output interlaced 29.97fps. some interlaced PAL2NTSC garbage or a myriad other possibilities. And, in many cases, for DVD you should keep it interlaced for the reason _Al_ mentioned earlier.
    So if NTSC DVD output 29.97, what's 23.976? HD?
    As I just mentioned, for DVD film can be encoded as progressive 23.976fps with flags set to output interlaced 29.97fps. And Blu-Rays can be encoded as progressive 23.976fps without pulldown.
    Are 29.97fps and 59.94 the same thing?
    Not necessarily. As I mentioned in the previous post, the output from NTSC DVD players will be 29.97 interlaced frames per second, which is the same as 59.94 fields per second. On the other hand, 59.94 frames per second is also fairly common. For example, Blu-Rays can be 1280x720 59.94fps.
    You said you don't use Handbrake. What do you use instead?
    For making MP4s mostly for uploading to YouTube I feed AviSynth scripts into XviD4PSP or Ripbot. A lot of my material is field-blended PAL2NTSC and even if I wanted to use Handbrake (I don't), it's incapable of handling that kind of material properly.
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  8. The only constant on DVD is that the standard definition interlaced analog output is always 59.94 fields per second. The data on the DVD can be 29.97 interlaced frames per second, or any progressive frame rate from 19.98 to 29.97 frames per second with pulldown flags (the flags tell the player how to produce 59.94 fields per second from the progressive frames).

    Movies are usually shot on film at 24 frames per second. For analog transmission they are normally slowed to 23.976 frames per second and go through 3:2 pulldown to create 59.94 fields per second that you see on TV. Each film frame is thus represented by 3 or 2 fields. Other pulldown patterns are possible too. But the final analog signal always contains 59.94 fields per second -- the only thing standard definition TVs could display.

    When 59.94 field per second analog video is digitized pairs of fields are woven together to create frames at 29.97 frames per second.

    Live analog video is transmitted as 59.94 fields per second where each field represents a specific point in time. Ie, there are 59.94 unique half-pictures each second.

    When PAL video is converted to NTSC video a number of different things can be done to convert 50 fields per second or 25 frames per second to 60 fields per second, 29.97 interlaced frames per second, 25 frames per second with 3:2:3:2:2 pulldown flags, or 23.976 frames per second with 3:2 pulldown flags. Again, the constant is that the analog signal will always be 59.94 fields per second.

    Each of the above types of sources requires a specific type of handling to get the best results.
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  9. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    That constant is also only constant for ANALOG output, which is getting rarer and rarer. Digital output can choose to ignore the pulldown flags of 23.976 and just send it DIRECTLY out HDMI (if the display supports it), instead of outputting 29.97.

    So the best thing to do is:
    1. Find out, from reliable methods, exactly what kind of material you are actually working with.
    2. Decide IF you need Interlaced or Progressive, and WHY.

    Then you can follow down the various paths to get from A --> E.

    Scott
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  10. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Do not deinterlace for DVD.
    Do not deinterlace for DVD.
    Do not deinterlace for DVD.
    Do not deinterlace for DVD.
    Do not deinterlace for DVD.
    Do not deinterlace for DVD.
    Do not deinterlace for DVD.

    Only deinterlace for streaming sites like Vimeo or Youtube. But even then, only a second copy, not the master.
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  11. Member
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    Hello,

    This clip has all the defects that I'd like to get rid of. I don't know why they are there in the first place.

    Pl suggest if it can be made better without much loss of quality (I think it is already at its worst).


    Thanks.
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  12. Originally Posted by ConverterCrazy View Post

    This clip has all the defects that I'd like to get rid of. I don't know why they are there in the first place.
    Like many, if not most, classic Indian films on NTSC DVD, they used a PAL master as a source and then field-blended it. The only way to make it look presentable is with an AviSynth unblender:

    MPEG2Source("Test.d2v")
    QTGMC(Preset="Faster")
    SRestore()
    SmoothTweak(Brightness=-5,Contrast=0.9)


    And for future reference, don't put a DVD into an MKV container. Just upload a VOB or an M2V you cut from the VOB using DGIndex. I extracted the MPG from the MKV you uploaded. You might also want to learn how to remove logos to get rid of that ugly GOLD logo.
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  13. Member
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    Thanks @manono

    I used MakeMKV which removes any encryption and creates MKV files. will Try using DGIndex as you suggest.


    If I get you right,

    - I have to convert VOB into d2v with DGIndex

    - Then run AviSynth script. Please suggest a way to do so, I am not young enough to learn AviSynth. Which tool/convertor can do this?

    For removing LOGO, I'll search the Forum for help.

    You have helped me earlier as well. I highly appreciate your help and suggestion.
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  14. Originally Posted by ConverterCrazy View Post
    I used MakeMKV which removes any encryption and creates MKV files.
    Decrypters such as DVD Decrypter are meant for the decrypting part. Except classic Indian films aren't usually encrypted. I don't care what you do yourself but if you're asking for help and providing samples I request you provide VOBs or M2Vs from the DVD.
    If I get you right,

    - I have to convert VOB into d2v with DGIndex
    DGindex converts nothing. It indexes the VOB files and then with the DGDecode.dll and MPEG2Source you can be sure the frames are in good order. It's all explained very well in the documents included in the DGMPGDec package.
    Then run AviSynth script. Please suggest a way to do so, I am not young enough to learn AviSynth.
    I showed you the script. If you want to work with very bad Indian DVDs, you have to use AviSynth. There is no other choice. There are programs such as XviD4PSP, MeGUI, RipBot264 and others that use it under-the-hood, but then you'll have to edit the scripts they make for you. I doubt you'll find that any easier.

    By the way, that one I kept at 25fps. For my own projects I slow both the video and audio back to film speed . That way the songs are back in tune and the movement is more natural. I can't believe that for films in which the songs are so important, the Indian media companies make all the songs out of tune - a semi-tone too high. If you know any musicians or any people with perfect pitch, ask them about it.
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  15. Member
    Join Date: Apr 2010
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    Thanks @manano

    OK, will upload sample in VOB or M2V format in future.

    Will get back with results of my trials.

    Your knowledge about Hindi film industry amazes me. Yes, they have the latest state-of-the-art equipment, good technicians too but bad marketing folks who don't care if the strings holding during stunts are visible! "Get done with your edition and make it fast"
    is their mantra.

    Thanks.
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  16. Member
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    @manono




    With DGIndex, I got the VTS_01_1.demuxed.m2v file, but no audio file
    That is as far as could go.


    You were right
    I doubt you'll find that any easier.
    and understood my limitations.
    I have not moved a single 'frame' despite many hours of trials and errors with XviD4PSP, MeGUI, RipBot264.

    Will keep trying.
    Last edited by ConverterCrazy; 28th Jun 2016 at 10:08. Reason: text correction
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  17. Originally Posted by ConverterCrazy View Post
    With DGIndex, I got the VTS_01_1.demuxed.m2v file, but no audio file
    That is as far as could go.
    I've used DGIndex maybe 5000 times and always gotten audio. The VTS_01_1.vob is part of the movie, right? You can scroll around and see the movie? Also, unless you did this just as a test, you can open all VOBs at once and make a D2V for the entire movie. You can also, at the same time, cut out parts you might not want, such as the censor certificate at the beginning, or the ad they sometimes have at the beginning.

    First, you don't need to save the M2V, although it won't harm anything to do so. Just 'Save Project' is enough as the D2V references the VOB(s). Second, do you have the audio portion set up as in the picture below? Also, you can get audio in other ways. PGCDemux is one additional way, although it shouldn't be necessary to use it just to get the audio.

    Third, in addition to reading and rereading the documents enclosed in the DGMPGDec package, read the introductory pages at the AviSynth site:

    http://avisynth.nl/index.php/Main_Page

    Edit later: Or were you expecting to play the M2V and hear audio? If so, that's a video-only file. The audio should have been demuxed separately. You can add the audio to the AviSynth script you create but there's no need to. I always add the audio back at the very end, during muxing.
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    Last edited by manono; 28th Jun 2016 at 21:41.
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  18. Member
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    If you're serious about deinterlacing, you'll want to get AviSynth up and running and use QTGMC. It's the best quality way to do it. As a stuck-on-handbrake user myself (much to the dismay of the members here who have helped me this far along already, I'm sure), I'll tell you that deinterlacing in Handbrake is bad.

    Secondly, be sure it's actually interlaced, and not telecined. One way to do this is to load up a video player like mpc-hc and disable the internal deinterlace filter. You'll see the combing. Pause and advance frame by frame. If there's combing in every frame (check moving objects) then it's really interlaced. If there's a distinct 2-3-2-3 pattern (that is, 2 frames interlaced, 3 frames progressive) that's telecine. In AviSynth, you would need TIVTC to detelecine this.
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  19. Member
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    @manono

    Thanks a ton! That kind of step-by-step help works wonders.

    Yes. it was only for a trial. Getting back to work right away.


    @Downgraded286
    Thanks will revert to you after any progress.
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  20. Member
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    @manono

    WOW Wonder of wonders!

    The AVIsynth had always put me off and I never tried seriously as I found it too intimidating.

    Your suggestion on learning AVIsynth is working. For the first time, I am able to understand how to write and use AVIsynth script. Though I am still in alphabetical stage.

    Two questions:

    1 - do I have to copy every Internal and External plugin under 'Filters and Utilities' on http://avisynth.nl/index.php/Main_Page in C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.6\plugins folder ?

    2 - DGIndex creates a VTS_01_1.D2V file of 1384KB and VTS_01_1.M2V file of 6GB. I have tried many options in Video settings but result is same. Is it OK or I am doing something very wrong?

    Thanks.
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  21. Originally Posted by ConverterCrazy View Post
    1 - do I have to copy every Internal and External plugin under 'Filters and Utilities' on http://avisynth.nl/index.php/Main_Page in C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.6\plugins folder ?
    No, copy only the ones you need. AviSynth has quite a few filters built in, but most of the really useful ones are third party filters you have to find and learn how to use. To use MPEG2Source for your DVDs you'll need the DGDecode.dll in the plugins folder. After that, copy the ones you'll be using regularly (QTGMC and SRestore for unblending), and whatever else. Some need others to work so, for example, by just copying the QTGMC.avsi to the plugins folder isn't enough. The important filters have their own pages at the AviSynth site where you can learn what they need to work and links for those other filters, and also instructions on how to use it. These filters also come with their own docs of good or not so good quality. So, to learn about QTGMC:

    http://avisynth.nl/index.php/QTGMC

    A few such as Yadif won't autoload and have to be loaded in the script. It's explained on the Yadif page or in its included doc.

    Always test your scripts in VDub because it'll give a better error message than will most encoders. If you run across problems you can't solve, ask here and always post your full script and any error message VDub gives you. If you need advice on a video, post a 10 second piece.
    2 - DGIndex creates a VTS_01_1.D2V file of 1384KB and VTS_01_1.M2V file of 6GB. I have tried many options in Video settings but result is same. Is it OK or I am doing something very wrong?
    Meaning what? That the video won't open in VDub? Like I said, you don't need the M2V. You do need the D2V in an AviSynth script (a text file with the extension .avs, rather than .txt) and, as explained in the DGDecodeQuickStart.html:

    LoadPlugin("C:/Path/To/DGDecode.dll")
    MPEG2Source("myvob.d2v")


    To open a script in VDub, open it as you might open an XviD AVI. Go File->Open Video File.

    And if the DGDecode.dll is in your plugins folder, you shouldn't even need the first line. Me, I use full paths for everything. Here's a sample script I might use, pared down to the basics of just opening and unblending a typically very poor quality field-blended Indian movie on DVD:

    SetMemoryMax(512)
    LoadPlugin("F:\AVISynth\dlls\DGDecode.dll")
    LoadPlugin("F:\AVISynth\dlls\mt_masktools.dll")
    #LoadPlugin("F:\AviSynth\Dlls\YadifMod.dll")
    LoadPlugin("F:\AviSynth\Dlls\NNEDI3.dll")
    LoadPlugin("F:\AVISynth\dlls\MVTools2.dll")
    LoadPlugin("F:\AVISynth\dlls\GScript.dll")
    LoadPlugin("F:\AVISynth\dlls\Grunt.dll")
    LoadPlugin("F:\AVISynth\dlls\RemoveGrainSSE2.dll")
    Import("F:\AVISynth\plugins\SRestore.avs")
    Import("F:\AVISynth\plugins\QTGMC.avsi")

    MPEG2Source("Movie.d2v")
    QTGMC()
    #yadifmod(mode=1, order=1, edeint=nnedi3(field=-2))
    SRestore()


    Those are needed for a basic unblend using QTGMC. A much faster but not quite as good bobber is YadifMod set up as in the commented out line. SetMemoryMax can also be useful. It's built into AviSynth. Other people might do the same thing slightly differently. Many depend on the plugins folder so they don't have to have all those Import and LoadPlugin lines in their scripts.
    Last edited by manono; 30th Jun 2016 at 03:59.
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  22. Member
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    @manono

    Thanks to your help, I am able to run script in VirtualDub.

    PHP Code:
    SetMemoryMax(512)
    LoadPlugin("C:\Hybrid\avisynthPlugins\DGDecode.dll")
    LoadPlugin("C:\Hybrid\avisynthPlugins\mt_masktools-25.dll")
    #LoadPlugin("C:\Hybrid\avisynthPlugins\YadifMod.dll")
    LoadPlugin("C:\Hybrid\avisynthPlugins\NNEDI3.dll")
    LoadPlugin("C:\Hybrid\avisynthPlugins\MVTools2.dll")
    LoadPlugin("C:\Hybrid\avisynthPlugins\GScript.dll")
    LoadPlugin("C:\Hybrid\avisynthPlugins\Grunt.dll")
    LoadPlugin("C:\Hybrid\avisynthPlugins\RemoveGrainSSE2.dll")
    Import("C:\Hybrid\avisynthPlugins\SRestore.avsi")
    Import("C:\Hybrid\avisynthPlugins\QTGMC-3.33.avsi")

    MPEG2Source("E:\Movie\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1-Main.d2v")
    QTGMC()
    #yadifmod(mode=1, order=1, edeint=nnedi3(field=-2))
    SRestore() 


    VirtualDub is running but is taking ages. Also audio is not being processed.
    Something is wrong here!

    Can you spot what wrong I am doing?

    Thanks
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    Last edited by ConverterCrazy; 1st Jul 2016 at 02:03. Reason: error correction
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  23. You're doing nothing wrong. QTGMC is slow although you can use faster settings for it. The default behavior for it is the 'slower' preset. You can try the YadifMod I showed as it's faster. Yadif is faster yet. You can trade quality for speed. Or just let it encode two nights and a day (and hope the power doesn't go out).

    As for the audio, MPEG2Source doesn't include the audio. You can add audio in the Audio section of VDub if you like.

    Congratulations! You're encoding now, frameserving with AviSynth. And you didn't think it would ever happen, did you? So you can teach an old dog new tricks.

    You can speed it up by doing a single pass using Quant 3, if you're running 2 passes. That will cut the time almost in half. And you can buy a faster computer. Nothing stresses a computer quite like complex AviSynth filters. You have a computer that was obsolete ten years ago, if your profile is accurate.
    Last edited by manono; 1st Jul 2016 at 02:20.
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  24. Member
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Congratulations! You're encoding now, frameserving with AviSynth. And you didn't think it would ever happen, did you? So you can teach an old dog new tricks.
    Indeed, thanks to your help and initiation and for that reason I declare you my guru in AviSynth.

    I really was too intimidated by code/script.

    Two more points in view of
    Edit later: Or were you expecting to play the M2V and hear audio? If so, that's a video-only file. The audio should have been demuxed separately. You can add the audio to the AviSynth script you create but there's no need to. I always add the audio back at the very end, during muxing.
    and
    By the way, that one I kept at 25fps. For my own projects I slow both the video and audio back to film speed . That way the songs are back in tune and the movement is more natural. I can't believe that for films in which the songs are so important, the Indian media companies make all the songs out of tune - a semi-tone too high. If you know any musicians or any people with perfect pitch, ask them about it.
    Can you give the script for above if it is not much trouble?
    Because it will help me back up my DVDs I paid for and got rotten video and eardrum jarring audio.

    Please do as you deem fit.

    Tahnks.
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  25. I don't know what you're asking. To slow the video? Add an AssumeFPS(23.976) to the end of the script. That will slow it to film speed. To slow the audio to match I use BeSweet which has a 25->23.976fps preset. But I always work with WAV audio. eac3to can slow AC3 audio from 25 to 23.976 also.
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  26. Member
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    Thanks for the clarification.

    Two more questions

    How do I add audio track to the current video?

    Will switching processor to i3 will make my system fast?
    (2 days for one movie is too slow)
    Last edited by ConverterCrazy; 1st Jul 2016 at 04:42. Reason: additional info
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  27. In i3 will be much faster than a Pentium D. You can also try using a faster preset in QTGMC. Try changing QTGMC() to QTGMC(preset="fast"). Quality will be a little worse but it will be much faster.
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  28. Member
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    @jagabo

    Thanks.
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  29. Originally Posted by ConverterCrazy View Post
    How do I add audio track to the current video?
    Open the XviD AVI in VDub and set Video for 'Direct Stream Copy'. Add the audio in the Audio tab and then File->Save as AVI.
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  30. Member
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    Thanks. @manono

    You know what?… The quality of video is just great! All those flickering images and Venetian blinds in the background — gone, almost indiscernible.

    Only the time taken by VDub is a big constraint at present. I'll not use yadif to sacrifice that quality.

    Hope Indians read this thread and get benefitted from it.

    I'll keep you posted.
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