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  1. Member
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    I have some VHS and DV footage which has, I believe, 4:3 aspect ratio. When I play the original tapes on the VCR connected to a widescreen tv, the picture is automatically enlarged to fit the large wide screen. The picture looks pretty reasonable.

    However, when I edit the same footage in AP and output to DVD the 4:3 aspect ratio is enforced. When playing the DVD the picture is displayed in 4:3 only and is not automatically enlarged. If I edit in a DV Widescreen project in AP and output to DVD then the picture on the tv is displayed in widescreen only and looks heavily squashed up.

    Is there a way to produce DVD ouput which behaves like the footage played on VCR (ie: in 4:3 but automatically enlarged for wide screen tvs)?
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    DVD players should usually signal to the TV set if the video to be displayed is 4:3 (fullscreen) or 16:9 (widescreen), according to the bit flags the MPEG2 encoder stored. This should happen via digital signals in invisible lines before the actually visible video content.

    If the MPEG2 video stream has the wrong kind of bit flag (e.g. because you accidently started a 4:3 project and then discover that the video is in fact 16:9), it is possible to patch the MPEG2 video stream e.g. with ReStream (if it is an elementary video stream). This should be corrected before authoring the final DVD.
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  3. Member
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    Originally Posted by akkers View Post
    I have some VHS and DV footage which has, I believe, 4:3 aspect ratio. When I play the original tapes on the VCR connected to a widescreen tv, the picture is automatically enlarged to fit the large wide screen. The picture looks pretty reasonable.

    However, when I edit the same footage in AP and output to DVD the 4:3 aspect ratio is enforced. When playing the DVD the picture is displayed in 4:3 only and is not automatically enlarged. If I edit in a DV Widescreen project in AP and output to DVD then the picture on the tv is displayed in widescreen only and looks heavily squashed up.

    Is there a way to produce DVD ouput which behaves like the footage played on VCR (ie: in 4:3 but automatically enlarged for wide screen tvs)?
    What's AP?

    Properly configured authoring/DVD player/TV will always play 4:3 as 4:3 and 16:9 as 16:9. If you want it stretched either give it a false flag in your authoring to wreck it for everyone, or just use the aspect button in your tv remote to ruin it only for yourself.
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  4. Member
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    The footage is 4:3 all the way. I just want it to display on the tv full screen like the VCRs do.

    AP - Adobe Premiere 5.

    Yes but the VCRs play 4:3 footage as 4:3 on a normal tv but stretch it out automatically for wide screen tvs.
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  5. Member
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    Originally Posted by akkers View Post
    The footage is 4:3 all the way. I just want it to display on the tv full screen like the VCRs do.

    AP - Adobe Premiere 5.

    Yes but the VCRs play 4:3 footage as 4:3 on a normal tv but stretch it out automatically for wide screen tvs.
    Most newer HDTVs allow setting an aspect ratio for each individual connection on the TV. I suspect that the connection you are using for the VCR is set to 16:9, and that is the only reason why it fills a 16:9 screen. You can try doing the same thing with the connection that the DVD player uses to see if it gives the desired result. It's less work than changing the aspect ratio of your previously authored video and re-burning it.
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  6. Member
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    Originally Posted by akkers View Post
    Yes but the VCRs play 4:3 footage as 4:3 on a normal tv but stretch it out automatically for wide screen tvs.
    No. Instead, many TV sets are set up to automatically stretch even 4:3 video. Usually the VCR is not to be blamed; in general, VCRs don't know if a Wide Screen TV set is attached, there is no option to tell them. DVD players, instead, can be set up to tell them if a 16:9 or 4:3 TV is attached, and if your preference to play widescreen DVD content on a 4:3 TV is Letterbox (downscaling) or Pan&Scan (section).

    DVD players use the Widescreen signaling feature to tell the TV set if a 16:9 or 4:3 video signal is being displayed. See a sample picture in this thread in the doom9 forum.
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  7. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    To expand on that:
    You probably have a setting on your TV's AR options which is like "Always 16:9". So anything coming in at 4:3 would be stretched to fill the 16:9 screen.

    Your VCR is dumb, and an older piece of equipment, so it only knows how to output 4:3. So the TV stretches it to make it 16:9.

    Your DVD player is smarter with more options. If you authored it as 4:3, it looks to your TV and sees that it is a 16:9 device, and has set in ITS (the DVD player's) options a setting that says "Keep AR and Letterbox/Pillarbox", so the input that the TV gets has ALREADY been pre-pillarboxed and is ALREADY a 16:9 signal, so doesn't need to do any more stretching.

    Your DV material that is widescreen is probably not TRULY widescreen, just 4:3 with Letterboxing (only the Highest end of consumer DV cams did true anamorphic WS like the semi-pro & pro cams did (even some of them didn't do it correctly). So you've got a 4:3 that you are authoring thinking it is widescreen, when in fact it is 4:3. So your DVD is 4:3 but with TV signalling to tell it to stretch to 16:9, but it already has letterboxing so you have letterboxing PLUS stretching.

    At least that's my guess.

    So you need to check 4 areas:
    1. Use mediainfo to find out TRULY what Display AR your source files are to begin with so you know how to properly edit & author them.
    2. Use edit, encoding & authoring templates that properly maintain the original Display AR. Use "anamorphic widescreen" whenever possible/appropriate, but not if your edited/encoded source files are already pre-letterboxed (and you haven't removed the LB first). In those cases, the best thing is probably to remove the LB. If you can't without too much degradation you will be stuck with having to leave the AR as 4:3 and change the TVs AR setting temporarily to the equivalent of "Zoom in & crop".
    3. Understand and properly use the AR settings on your DVD player's output.
    4. Understand and properly use the AR settings on your TV's input.

    They all interact and can give varying degrees of compatiblility.

    Personally, I leave my TV all the time set to "Keep original DAR". And then make sure the DVD player is set to use Anamorphic when possible. So my 4:3s all have pillarboxing, and my 16:9s are all full screen. I make sure to preprocess my source material to avoid the "4:3 LB'd to look WS 16:9" difficulties.

    Scott
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 27th Mar 2014 at 14:25.
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  8. I assume my TV's not some sort of exception, and it has a zoom option for 4:3 video, which is supposed to zoom in so it'll fill the screen, but if memory serves me correctly it does also stretch it a little. It's nowhere near as bad as the normal "stretch" option, whatever it's called.

    Chances are you can set the TVs display independently for each input so if you check how it's set for the VCR you could probably use the same setting when viewing with the DVD player.

    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Your DVD player is smarter with more options. If you authored it as 4:3, it looks to your TV and sees that it is a 16:9 device, and has set in ITS (the DVD player's) options a setting that says "Keep AR and Letterbox/Pillarbox", so the input that the TV gets has ALREADY been pre-pillarboxed and is ALREADY a 16:9 signal, so doesn't need to do any more stretching.
    Unless it's a HDMI DVD player, how would it do that?
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  9. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    DVD players that don't have signalling exchange between player & display (which HDMI has) usually have a setting that says what kind of display you are using/expecting: 16:9 or 4:3. I would presume that in the OP's case, he's already got it set to 16:9 (he should, because that's what he has).

    I've got a nice TV, but mine doesn't allow per-input AR options, just global. I think that feature is rarer than you might guess.

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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    Many thanks all. I will play around with the TV and DVD player but leave the authoring alone.
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  11. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Well, OK, but that's not what I said to do. While you should be able to workaround most AR inconsistencies (using the settings on your TV & Players), you still could be MAKING those inconsistencies, if you aren't being careful in your processing, editing, encoding & authoring.

    An End-to-End understanding of your material is your best starting point on the path to maintain quality viewing.

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  12. Member
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    Here is the info for both the DV and VHS footage:

    ------------DV--------------------
    General
    Complete name : E:\bm.avi
    Format : AVI
    Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
    Format_Commercial_IfAny : DVCPRO
    Format profile : OpenDML
    File size : 10.2 GiB
    Duration : 48mn 49s
    Overall bit rate : 29.8 Mbps
    Recorded date : 1999-04-11 13:39:14
    Writing library : sce***
    TAPE : s***
    TCOD : 34400000
    TCDO : 29319200000
    VMAJ : 4
    VMIN : 0
    STAT : 0 0 3500.000000 1
    DTIM : 29262880 2953227520

    Video
    ID : 0
    Format : DV
    Format_Commercial_IfAny : DVCPRO
    Codec ID : dvsd
    Codec ID/Hint : Sony
    Duration : 48mn 49s
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 24.4 Mbps
    Width : 720 pixels
    Height : 576 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 4:3
    Frame rate mode : Constant
    Frame rate : 25.000 fps
    Standard : PAL
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Interlaced
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.357
    Stream size : 9.82 GiB (97%)

    Audio
    ID : 1
    Format : PCM
    Format settings, Endianness : Little
    Format settings, Sign : Signed
    Codec ID : 1
    Codec ID/Hint : Microsoft
    Duration : 48mn 49s
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 1 024 Kbps
    Channel(s) : 2 channels
    Sampling rate : 32.0 KHz
    Bit depth : 16 bits
    Stream size : 358 MiB (3%)
    Interleave, duration : 500 ms (12.49 video frames)




    ------------VHS------------------
    General
    Complete name : X:\b1.avi
    Format : AVI
    Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
    Format_Commercial_IfAny : DVCPRO
    Format profile : OpenDML
    File size : 11.7 GiB
    Duration : 55mn 57s
    Overall bit rate : 29.8 Mbps
    Recorded date : 1999-01-01 06:11:31
    Writing library : S****
    TCOD : -9223372036854775808
    TCDO : -9223372036854775808
    VMAJ : 4
    VMIN : 0
    STAT : 0 0 3500.000000 1
    DTIM : 27111902 3577643008

    Video
    ID : 0
    Format : DV
    Format_Commercial_IfAny : DVCPRO
    Codec ID : dvsd
    Codec ID/Hint : Sony
    Duration : 55mn 57s
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 24.4 Mbps
    Width : 720 pixels
    Height : 576 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 4:3
    Frame rate mode : Constant
    Frame rate : 25.000 fps
    Standard : PAL
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Interlaced
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.357
    Stream size : 11.3 GiB (97%)

    Audio
    ID : 1
    Format : PCM
    Format settings, Endianness : Little
    Format settings, Sign : Signed
    Codec ID : 1
    Codec ID/Hint : Microsoft
    Duration : 55mn 57s
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 1 024 Kbps
    Channel(s) : 2 channels
    Sampling rate : 32.0 KHz
    Bit depth : 16 bits
    Stream size : 410 MiB (3%)
    Interleave, duration : 500 ms (12.49 video frames)
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  13. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    As I predicted, your DV material is flagged as 4:3, even when you are expecting it to be widescreen. If it were truly anamorphic 16:9 and not pre-letterboxed, it would show the 16:9 DAR.

    BTW, I don't know if this is your doing or not (although I'm guess that it is at least for the VHS passed-through material), but 32kHz audio is NOT the best quality nor compatibility choice for DV - 48kHz is (followed by 44.1). 32kHz is allowed but is known to be not fully supported, both for hardware & software.

    Of course, if it's now working for you OK, more power to you. ("if it ain't broke...")

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  14. Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    ...but 32kHz audio is NOT the best quality nor compatibility choice for DV - 48kHz is (followed by 44.1).
    If I had to guess (he hasn't said) I'd say he's capping using a Canopus box because 32kHz is the default setting, for some peculiar reason. It's easy enough to change it to cap at 48kHz, something he should definitely do since he's making DVDs from the tapes.
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  15. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    I agree.
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  16. Member
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    Thanks for that. I did not realise I had been capturing 32KHz audio; I will up it to 48KHz for furture captures.

    One thing I came across today. If I load this footage and edit in Premiere Pro in a 32Khz project, I can output to mpeg2 (which is automatic 48KHz) and produce DVD which turns out fine.

    However, if I load this footage into a 48Khz project and output to mpeg2 and then DVD, the result is audio is fractionally out of sync when playing the dvd.
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  17. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    It's going to be changed SOMEWHERE before it gets to the DVD, because DVD-Video format ONLY accepts 48kHz. So where & when (and which is giving the best quality) is something you can play with.

    Sometimes in this business 2 wrongs don't make a right, so it could be that using a 48kHz project necessitates interpolation at the input vs. the output and maybe it is at a disadvantage in the input stage. Hard to say, all depends on the inner workings of the app(s) involved. Could be PPro, could be the encoder (AME?).

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  18. Member
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    Just an update on the audio settings. I had initially set the audio to be captured at 48Khz but all the videos appear to have been captured at 32Khz audio. I now know what has happened.

    In the software I chose the option to capture both audio tracks (the original and the dubbed tracks on the DV tape). When you choose to capture multiple audio tracks, audio is only captured in 32Khz. Perhaps it was recorded so on the DV.

    At least it explains what happened.
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