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  1. Member
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    I've looked all over this and four other dedicated sites for AV info looking into this.
    I want to copy VHS and beta tapes eventually to H264.

    I would prefer to simply record from VHS to some form of external media. USB/Flash etc.

    That said: I've given into the probable need to burn to dvd so whatever solution needs to support RW or RAM.

    Suggestions on best choices for doing this without clogging my PC?
    We're talking more tapes than I'm willing to pay someone else to do.

    I had a Sony standalone burner for some time. I paid $99 for it. The two I see on Amazon now are both over $300 unless I'm missing something they're not available or have gone rare enough to be expensive.

    PS. anywhere BESIDES ebay is ohkay. eBay is NOT an option.
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  2. Member hech54's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lostinlodos View Post
    I've looked all over this and four other dedicated sites for AV info looking into this.
    I want to copy VHS and beta tapes eventually to H264.
    "Eventually to H264" only makes sense if your initial capture is in some form of lossless compression/AVI.

    Originally Posted by lostinlodos View Post
    I would prefer to simply record from VHS to some form of external media. USB/Flash etc.
    Right there you have just thrown a big wrench into your plan. Capturing in stressful on a computer, adding a possibly slow USB connection into the mix is NOT a good idea. Internal hard drives are large, cheap and fast.....and easily installed/removed to be later run via USB via an external enclosure or connection device once the capturing is complete.

    Originally Posted by lostinlodos View Post
    That said: I've given into the probable need to burn to dvd so whatever solution needs to support RW or RAM.
    Now you want two final output types(MPEG2 and H264)? You REALLY need to consider your initial capture codecs.

    Originally Posted by lostinlodos View Post
    Suggestions on best choices for doing this without clogging my PC?
    We're talking more tapes than I'm willing to pay someone else to do.
    A large, fast internal HDD.

    Originally Posted by lostinlodos View Post
    I had a Sony standalone burner for some time. I paid $99 for it. The two I see on Amazon now are both over $300 unless I'm missing something they're not available or have gone rare enough to be expensive.
    Burner or Recorder?.....big difference.


    Originally Posted by lostinlodos View Post
    PS. anywhere BESIDES ebay is ohkay. eBay is NOT an option.
    Ebay is my ONLY option when looking for old, rare VHS tapes to capture to my computer. 90% of my captured material
    comes from over 200 painless, effortless, trouble-free Ebay/Paypal transactions.


    Having said all of that.....I use both computer capture AND an old LG/Medion DVD "Recorder" for preserving my VHS tapes....
    depends on my mood that day.
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  3. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    If you want a stand-alone solution, you would need to look into a DVR. You just connect your VCR/Beta Machine to it, and record. That simple. It will also make a DvD for you. You don't need a PC for any of this.

    Keep in mind:
    -Although adequate, it's not the ultimate solution for highest quality, but very easy.
    -You will not be able to remove any MacroVision, or other VHS corrupt signals, unless you place a full frame external TBC in the chain.
    -I'm not referring to any combo VHS/DvD unit that captures. Those are, yes, easier still to use, but much worse in quality. I'm recommending you get a DVR with a hard drive, so you can manage and edit your captures before you migrate to DvD or your computer.
    -As for H.264 encoding, you will get the best results to this format if you first capture to lossless, and that will entail an employment of your computer. Other than doing it on your computer, I know naught of a good DVR, USB stick hardware solution, etc, that can do it directly with any degree of good results. You can encode to H.264 from the DvDs made by your DVR, but that would also be quite lossy.

    As per shopping on eBay, I like it. However, what sucks about it, or pretty much any direct service, are those annoying S&H charges that many times exceed the actual price, even in many multiples.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  4. Member orsetto's Avatar
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    If you have even the slightest inclination to want portable, "futureproof" files: forget the standalone recorder. Spend your money on a newer, more capable PC with decent video input accessories. Record in lossless format and store these files on cheap external HDDs. For day to day use, convert the lossless original VHS dubs to MP4 or MKV or whatever your primary playback devices need.

    If you value convenience over ultimate quality of eventual H264 files, you can use a standalone DVD recorder to make DVDs, then rip them to your PC to create any type of video file. Note, however, files ripped from VHS>DVD conversions are usually ghastly quality: VHS is a dodgy source to begin with, the DVD conversion makes it worse, then converting that mess to H264 is pretty much an exercise in futility. Also note, the convenience factor of using a DVD recorder to digitize VHS is nullified by the aggravation entailed in converting the DVDs to H264. So if you absolutely want all these VHS to eventually be H264 files, you'll be far FAR better off creating H264 directly from the VHS (with no DVD conversion mucking it up in between).

    Regarding DVD recorders, there is almost nothing left worth buying in USA. The only new recorders you can get with a USA warranty are the Magnavox MDR533 and MDR535 DVD/HDD models at WalMart. These used to be reasonably decent if operated carefully, but during the past year quality control at the factory has slipped significantly and parts quality has declined. These can no longer be recommended for VHS dubbing due to an assortment of potential glitches that mess up the dubs. Similar, cheaper models with the Magnavox and Toshiba brand names are essentially the same crummy 533 recorder without the tuner and HDD: i.e., garbage units at dubbing VHS. All of the Magnavox and Toshiba recorders employ a gimmicky DVD file format that plays fine on other hardware but can be a royal PITA when extracting to create H264 and other file conversions.

    If you are adventurous and have money to burn, the grey market import Panasonic DMR-EH59 DVD/HDD recorder is on par with the best models of the past (which peaked around 2005/2006). It costs about $400 new thru B&H Photo/Video, a reputable dealer in New York. Many, many Panasonic fans have bought these and are very happy with them. The EH59 includes a host of convenient editing features which let you avoid the PC entirely (other than converting the DVDs to H264). You can tinker with up to 30 different simultaneous DVD editing projects that the unit can hold in memory until you're ready to burn the DVDs. The Panasonic EH59 is great if your end goal is primarily a DVD collection, but if you are already thinking ahead to H264, it is a waste to spend $400 on the EH59: that money can defray much of the cost of a new video-equipped PC.
    Last edited by orsetto; 27th Mar 2014 at 11:50.
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  5. Member
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    I tried a few of the "newer" game capture devices. All seem to be composite video or hdmi if not direct port to port matched.
    Has anyone tried some of the earlier ones?

    No... dvd is far from ideal and honestly I'd like to go from VCR to File with/without a stabiliser.
    Burner or Recorder?.....big difference.
    I had an earlier model of one of these actually.
    Sony VRDMC6 DVDirect Compact Size DVD Burner with AVCHD Recording
    Think I had the old VDR-MC4 but can't swear by that.

    I've been looking at these two but can't find any good I/O port photos.
    AVerMedia - C875
    Hauppauge HD PVR Rocket Portable Stand Alone HD
    Either any good or any other options?

    Nero GBH made a standalone recorder unit for many years but I can't find one at the moment. I think it was a 500GB HDD unit.

    Note: If orsetto happened to click that little pc icon I forgot about it, I've updated it. It's not a system issue. It's an I don't want to use up my PC doing rips.
    Last edited by lostinlodos; 27th Mar 2014 at 16:30. Reason: updated profile.
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  6. Member
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    Looks like the Hauppauge HD PVR Pocket Rocket ONLY does HDMI capture. This is a huge limitation. The other members of the HD PVR family, including the internal Colossus card, all can do HDMI, component and composite video capture. I've got the Colossus and I have used it for VHS capture. The Colossus has an internal TBC that can be turned on with a registry hack. Other Hauppauge devices may not have this.

    The Colossus/HD PVR family of devices can only record directly in H.264 format - no lossless. This is fine for me, but purists in the "You MUST ONLY record in lossless" camp don't like it. In my opinion at sufficiently high bit rates recording directly to H.264 is fine, but those who think otherwise think so religiously. Just do whatever works for you.

    I do want to tell you that this is REALLY late to be getting into the game of "I need to save my precious video tapes". It's better to start now than 3+ years from now, but the golden age of doing this is long past. People like you who are just now starting to record tons of videotapes they suddenly can't live without and have only recently begun to realize won't last forever often find very old websites with advice from 10 years ago advising the use of certain VCRs that are now quite rare and hard to find in working condition. We also occasionally get newbies who don't realize what an abominable video format VHS tape is. If you're recording old recordings you made yourself, they were likely done at slower speeds and thus lower quality. I'd say that even commercial VHS tapes really weren't all that good. You'll see when you start to do this. Paths for insanity are to get so discouraged in your captures and your drive for perfection that NOTHING you end up recording looks good enough for you, so you keep starting over (we had an infamous thread here where someone did that) or to start buying really expensive VCRs because a decade ago they were good but no longer are today. The recommended VCRs from the old days are now breaking down due to overuse and at this point the only sensible recommendation unless you have a lot of money to burn is to just go with whatever decent working VCR you can get. You should have started this project 4+ years ago, so at least do yourself a favor and just get it done in a reasonable amount of time so you can get on with your life instead of wasting your time and money in the futile search for perfection. Any approach that doesn't just accept what you can get as "good enough" and "it will have to do" is pointless in my opinion. I told you that I use my Colossus for VHS captures, but I do this rarely. I have a decent JVC VCR that is not one of the recommended models from many years ago, but it's one of the better consumer models available at the time I bought it and it still works reliably. The fact that I do this less than 10 times a year is why my VCR still works. Just so you know, if you wanted to get into something that it's really not too late to start capturing and saving, that would be laserdisc.
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  7. Member
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    thanks for the reply. I'll check out the Colossus.
    I ordered one of those Toshiba dvd-r decks too so I'll give that a try first.
    Most of these are poor quality to began with. I'm not looking for perfection at all: rather preservation. saving tapes that are demagnetizing and falling apart from age.


    perfection from vhs? blah.
    😃
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  8. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jman98
    The Colossus/HD PVR family of devices can only record directly in H.264 format - no lossless. This is fine for me, but purists in the "You MUST ONLY record in lossless" camp don't like it. In my opinion at sufficiently high bit rates recording directly to H.264 is fine, but those who think otherwise think so religiously. Just do whatever works for you.
    Well, there is a reason for using lossless formats that works for us. Yeah, much (MUCH) bigger in file size for only a (tiny) bit more quality for us nitpickers, which invites much (MUCH) more aggravation in the workflow throughout - agreed.

    However using lossless allows us not only to better edit the final result, but lossless is alot more flexible for post processing, which has become ever more important with output from failing VCRs in this day in age. Converting the final result, after cleanup, lossless->H.264 in the end, with a good H.264 encoder, will provide much better quality in the end than directly to H.264 (with our without cleanup).

    I don't disagree with you about the aggravation of it all, trust me I've been through enough of my own over the years with this horrid format of VHS (which I hate), but the real question is, how nitpicky do you want to be about your content?

    But another reason why I go through this aggravation is because I do see an end to it. Once I finish my tapes there will be no more VHS in my life (). I don't have to do this forever, only until I finish my tapes which have much cherished content on them, and I can encourage some light on the matter today with the vast assortment of computer resources to take advantage of currently that we didn't have not too long ago.

    I have put pressure on myself to finish this in 2014. I've spent one decade too many on this format. I hate VHS. I always did.
    Originally Posted by lostinlodos
    perfection from vhs? blah.
    I sense you are not nitpicky. Then fine, go ahead and use the recommended Colossus to get your final result directly on to smaller H.264 files at, more or less, decent quality, if that is still your ultimate objective as is the objective of this thread - but you will have to use your computer for this. It is not a stand-alone solution.

    Also, you don't have to shop on ebaY and roll a die on this. You can buy it guaranteed and new (which is always a nice option ).
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  9. Member
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    Well then; thank you to everyone. I found my not so standalone solution but I think it's going to work well enough.
    The Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle. Looks like this combined with some good software programs I already have can overall be the best solution. So on to conversions... once ups gets the stuff here.
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  10. Blackmagic Intensity devices are way overkill for VHS capture. They won't work well without a full frame time base corrector. And even then they're not especially good at standard definition video capture -- SD capture is just an afterthought for them. Their primary consideration is high def capture.
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  11. Member
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    so I'll be straight honest here.
    my /goal/ before anything else is to salvage two shelves of late 70s and early 80s vhs and betamax tapes. all classic horror films. many are extremely low production runs and in terrible shape to begin with when they were made new. and some early underground tapings of early punk-thrash shows. all i want is to not totally loose them.
    Toshiba burner deck didn't work out. too many artifacts. and crap digital striping. the settings are either too high 30min a dvd or too low 4 or 6 hour discs. my next step if all else fails is pull out the projector and record from a tripod.
    I've gotten some good suggestions here and I'm gonna give what i ordered a try.
    if anything works out I'll post.
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  12. Don't get it. BMI Shuttle is the absolute exact opposite of the easy standalone solution you were looking for.

    Not only is USB 3.0 so poorly implemented in it that it doesn't work with the majority of PCs, but even if you get lucky, it will still fail to capture your tapes without the help of additional hardware that provides frame sync.

    If you are still intent on direct to h264, Blackmagic do make a "Video Recorder" product that does just that, although I don't know how good it is so therefore can't advise getting it.

    These are options as far as I'm concerned (in no order):

    1. Lossless -
    You can buy a cheap ATI-600 or similar USB TV stick and capture losslessly, however it does have a big learning curve and unless you have a) good playback hardware and b) intend on serious restoration, it just isn't worth the trouble. I'm of the opinion that no newbie ever gets around to fixing all their videos anyway, past the point of relying on this forum's members to fix it for them.

    Additionally, since the files are also huge, there are hidden storage costs to be aware of that can get quite high.

    2. DVD Recorder -
    Your easy standalone option. Looks like it's already been covered in this thread however, so I'll leave this one be.

    3. DV converter -
    Some members here won't be happy with me for bringing this up. But whatever.

    For those who want to avoid the hassle of lossless, but want better quality with nearly the ease of a DVD-R, the ADVC-110 is their best bet. It's not lossless but it's close, at smaller file sizes and easily editable. But most importantly it is reliable at capturing and simple to use.

    Not exactly cheap, but still cheaper that the Shuttle. The catch is you do need a FireWire card.

    Good luck.

    PS: I am actually pretty interested in the footage you're trying to convert. If you ever upload some, please send me a link. Cheers
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  13. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SixFiftyThree
    DV converter -
    Some members here won't be happy with me for bringing this up. But whatever.
    Forget them then. The nays and yays of VHS->DV have become a silly political debate. The ADVC is a good middle-of-the-road idea I should have pointed out too.

    I personally would prefer lossless, but that's because I'm a purist, and would recommend lossless for that extra quality if the O/P intends to encode to DvD/H.264 and throw away the Source anyway. But DV is perfectly fine too, even at 4:1:1 (for the O/P's NTSC-land region), which is more than adequate for VHS'es 4:0.1:0.1 (roughly).

    Unless I'm missing something (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) I see very little difference between DV and lossless other than how a decoder interprets them (which nullifies much of the flamethrowing IMO). Yes lossless is better, but is the much bigger file size worth it for maybe less than a 3%-5% gain in quality? For me it is on some tapes, but it won't be for all.

    Originally Posted by SixFiftyThree
    For those who want to avoid the hassle of lossless, but want better quality with nearly the ease of a DVD-R, the ADVC-110 is their best bet. It's not lossless but it's close, at smaller file sizes and easily editable. But most importantly it is reliable at capturing and simple to use.
    Totally agree. The ADVC may have its critics, but nobody seems to question its reliability or ease-of-use or its ability to produce (at minimum) decent+ quality.

    Originally Posted by SixFiftyThree
    Not exactly cheap, but still cheaper that the Shuttle.
    Yes, the ADVC is a bit overpriced for the fact that it only does DV, which too is a very fixed format.

    But who cares? It's 2014, and it's become ever more important to find something that works over saving a buck in this day and age with VHS transfers. The ADVC will get the job done, and that matters more when (especially in modern times) we hear of many, many headaches with this project. No, it's not a stand-alone solution since you do need a computer, but it's as easy as one can be.

    I too don't recommend the Shuttle, not because of its higher price, but for the reasons already mentioned. It's not for VHS.

    Originally Posted by SixFiftyThree
    The catch is you do need a FireWire card.
    If the O/P is using a laptop, then he/she's in trouble. Even an adapter here is likely to NOT work.

    But a firewire card, such as for a desktop PC, is dirt cheap and available anywhere in any electronic chain store if the O/P doesn't have one already.

    Originally Posted by SixFiftyThree
    PS: I am actually pretty interested in the footage you're trying to convert. If you ever upload some, please send me a link. Cheers
    Did I also read "early punk-thrash shows"? (And if there's some old horror too, this collection would be sorely lacking without any Misfits in the mix somewhere - the common denominator between the two. )

    I would do the tapes over here - for free - just to get a personal copy!

    At any rate, Lostinlodos, please update this thread in the future with any link(s) if uploaded somewhere.
    Last edited by PuzZLeR; 31st Mar 2014 at 02:09.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  14. I must say I'm pleasantly surprised to not be disagreed with on this topic. Where's Sanlyn at? (Busy editing another 1000 posts?)

    Originally Posted by PuzZLeR View Post
    Unless I'm missing something (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) I see very little difference between DV and lossless other than how a decoder interprets them (which nullifies much of the flamethrowing IMO). Yes lossless is better, but is the much bigger file size worth it for maybe less than a 3%-5% gain in quality? For me it is on some tapes, but it won't be for all.
    I agree, the difference in playback quality is barely visible. Chroma is not an issue, as long as the DV decoder is interpolating and not duplicating it. Cedocida is the best pick. As you said, DV easily captures what little colour VHS has - there is no loss as some would have us believe (typically those who don't use it).

    The main difference is the fixed 25 Mbps and less editing headroom, which I have no issue with. It's a small price to pay for no headaches as you put it. The extra padding that lossless provides is worthless for most people anyway.

    Originally Posted by lostinlodos View Post
    my next step if all else fails is pull out the projector and record from a tripod.
    I thought of putting it politely but - this is a crap idea. If all else fails just find someone to convert the tapes for you.
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  15. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SixFiftyThree
    I agree, the difference in playback quality is barely visible. Chroma is not an issue, as long as the DV decoder is interpolating and not duplicating it. Cedocida is the best pick. As you said, DV easily captures what little colour VHS has - there is no loss as some would have us believe (typically those who don't use it).

    The main difference is the fixed 25 Mbps and less editing headroom, which I have no issue with. It's a small price to pay for no headaches as you put it. The extra padding that lossless provides is worthless for most people anyway.
    Regardless, the decoding shouldn't be an issue anyway, even if the decoder used creates that dithering effect. DV is for editing and archiving, not the format commonly used for regular playback anyway. Many would/should encode it to DivX/H.264/MPEG-2/whatever for their player of choice (while keeping the DV Source aside). I have not seen this decoding issue translated in subsequent formats.

    In all my tests, I see very little difference in quality (I stress again for those wishing to argue to please prove me wrong if I am) whether capturing the same tape to DV or to lossless, even with my ATI 600 USB which can also capture directly to DV (with the said Cedocida codec). This also applies to post processing as well, the outputted DV result looks almost identical to the lossless version, and this makes perfect sense for those less important captures I wish to keep without burdening my hard drives for it.

    I'm a purist like I mentioned, and don't mind the extra space with lossless, but most don't have to be that picky.

    Some also would recommend high-bitrate MPEG-2 captures, which would further ease storage, but the quality differences are bigger here, likely more than the 3%-5% I mentioned if there's alot of noise, movement or jitter in the video. It can be a bigger step down in degradation. Some will argue to use all I frames and still higher bitrates, but that closes the gap on space savings considerably, and you may as well use standard DV at that point.

    Originally Posted by SixFiftyThree
    Originally Posted by lostinlodos View Post
    my next step if all else fails is pull out the projector and record from a tripod.
    I thought of putting it politely but - this is a crap idea. If all else fails just find someone to convert the tapes for you.
    Yes, bad idea unless you're using those old reels from the 60s or something where you'd have less choices than with VHS.

    Really, get a good capture stick (an ATI 600 USB, ezcapt.tv - the real one, or Hauppauge USB-Live2) or an ADVC 55/110 or a good DVR and go forward.

    Or someone can do it for you (hint - maybe even for free).

    Originally Posted by SixFiftyThree
    I must say I'm pleasantly surprised to not be disagreed with on this topic. Where's Sanlyn at? (Busy editing another 1000 posts?)
    We should encourage some members, including myself, to join Postprocessingaholics Annonymous. We could use their help to regain rationality and control of our lives once more.

    Hello PA? I have a problem...
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  16. Originally Posted by PuzZLeR View Post
    Regardless, the decoding shouldn't be an issue anyway, even if the decoder used creates that dithering effect.
    With higher quality sources the difference between DV decoders that duplicate chroma rather than interpolate is quite obvious:

    http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/289684-DV-capture-quality-sucks?p=1758114&viewfull=1#post1758114

    It's less obvious with VHS because of the low chroma resolution but it can still be visible depending on the filtering you use.
    Last edited by jagabo; 31st Mar 2014 at 10:53.
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  17. Mod Neophyte Super Moderator redwudz's Avatar
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    I finished up converting my 200 odd VHS tapes last year. I got tired of looking at them taking up shelf space. Many were recorded in long play off TV. Those were mostly very poor quality and useless and I ended up tossing them. The 50 or so left over were mostly commercial VHS tapes. I wouldn't call any of them 'great' quality. I had a inexpensive Macrovision blocker that still works. I had two VHS decks, both useless because of age and storage. I bought a older VHS deck off Ebay that works very well. Unfortunately mono audio, but with the tapes I had, not really a problem. I used a Y adapter to have dual mono.

    My plan was to convert the VHS tapes to MKV/H.264/AC3, which most all my video files are. I copied the tapes with a ADVC 100 to DV format and then converted that to MKV with Handbrake. That worked well. None of them really needed editing. All the tapes then went into the dumpster. I did keep the VHS deck, just in case.
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  18. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by PuzZLeR View Post
    Regardless, the decoding shouldn't be an issue anyway, even if the decoder used creates that dithering effect.
    With higher quality sources the difference between DV decoders that duplicate chroma rather than interpolate is quite obvious:

    http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/289684-DV-capture-quality-sucks?p=1758114&viewfull=1#post1758114

    It's less obvious with VHS because of the low chroma resolution but it can still be visible depending on the filtering you use.
    Yes indeed, I was referring to VHS source only, and I was referring to VHS->DV, and the differences between that and VHS->4:2:2 lossless is minimal.

    You can still see it in decoding DV, but if you don't care for DV playback, only use it for caps/edits/archives, then even encoding it to DvD/DivX/H.264 or any typical 4:2:0 playback format wouldn't make a big difference if the source is VHS.

    I did say there is a difference, but only for the nitpicky IMO.

    In other words, under equivalent settings/conditions, there is little difference IMO between:

    VHS->4:1:1 DV->4:2:2 playback format
    VHS->4:2:2 lossless->4:2:0 playback format
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  19. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by redwudz View Post
    I finished up converting my 200 odd VHS tapes last year. I got tired of looking at them taking up shelf space. Many were recorded in long play off TV. Those were mostly very poor quality and useless and I ended up tossing them. The 50 or so left over were mostly commercial VHS tapes. I wouldn't call any of them 'great' quality. I had a inexpensive Macrovision blocker that still works. I had two VHS decks, both useless because of age and storage. I bought a older VHS deck off Ebay that works very well. Unfortunately mono audio, but with the tapes I had, not really a problem. I used a Y adapter to have dual mono.

    My plan was to convert the VHS tapes to MKV/H.264/AC3, which most all my video files are. I copied the tapes with a ADVC 100 to DV format and then converted that to MKV with Handbrake. That worked well. None of them really needed editing. All the tapes then went into the dumpster. I did keep the VHS deck, just in case.
    I can't wait to finish mine - committed to it this year and congrats on your accomplishment. (Yes, it really IS an accomplishment.)

    And I too will chuck a vast majority of the tapes, and also can't stand the site of them filling closets and shelves any more, but will keep my better VCRs, and keep them clean for some time yet in case of any outside projects after that. They do have a place in my home theater after that as well if I wish.

    As for the mono thing, I personally would just use another player just for the audio if better even if the video from it is worse, then edit/mux the best of both. Yeah, more captures, but better results. Then again, if the audio quality on the tape is so low to begin with, then I wouldn't bother.

    I'm keeping all digital source, DV or lossless, but for playback uses I much prefer an encode to DvD, DivX or H.264 depending on the player.

    Yeah, some will argue that the True Source is the tape, and I won't disagree with them if they wish to keep the tapes too. However, I'm fine with a good digital transfer. My True Source is the content on the tape, not the tape itself which was only its last home before it moved. I personally disassociate the two.

    I hate VHS. I always did.
    Last edited by PuzZLeR; 31st Mar 2014 at 14:28.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  20. Originally Posted by PuzZLeR View Post
    In other words, under equivalent settings/conditions, there is little difference IMO between:

    VHS->4:1:1 DV->4:2:2 playback format
    VHS->4:2:2 lossless->4:2:0 playback format
    We're not talking about that. We're talking about the difference in 4:1:1 upsampling by duplication vs. interpolation. Poor upsampling is visible even with VHS and shows up as vertical stripes in the color. That's why it's important to use a DV decoder that upsamples with interpolation.
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  21. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by PuzZLeR View Post
    In other words, under equivalent settings/conditions, there is little difference IMO between:

    VHS->4:1:1 DV->4:2:2 playback format
    VHS->4:2:2 lossless->4:2:0 playback format
    We're not talking about that. We're talking about the difference in 4:1:1 upsampling by duplication vs. interpolation. Poor upsampling is visible even with VHS and shows up as vertical stripes in the color. That's why it's important to use a DV decoder that upsamples with interpolation.
    For further clarification, are you referring to proper decoding within the script/encoder as well?
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  22. Originally Posted by PuzZLeR View Post
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by PuzZLeR View Post
    In other words, under equivalent settings/conditions, there is little difference IMO between:

    VHS->4:1:1 DV->4:2:2 playback format
    VHS->4:2:2 lossless->4:2:0 playback format
    We're not talking about that. We're talking about the difference in 4:1:1 upsampling by duplication vs. interpolation. Poor upsampling is visible even with VHS and shows up as vertical stripes in the color. That's why it's important to use a DV decoder that upsamples with interpolation.
    For further clarification, are you referring to proper decoding within the script/encoder as well?
    No, I'm talking specifically about when the DV decoder does the chroma upsampling. Typically the NTSC DV decoder's otuput will be RGB 4:4:4 or YUV 4:2:2 as that's what most editors/players will negotiate.
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  23. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    No, I'm talking specifically about when the DV decoder does the chroma upsampling. Typically the NTSC DV decoder's otuput will be RGB 4:4:4 or YUV 4:2:2 as that's what most editors/players will negotiate.
    Yes, I understand about this decoding problem. It has been going on a long, long time, and there's a saying that somewhere around the late 90s, many movie's colors' were faded/blended/etc due to such improper conversions with editors (or maybe encoders) from DV source.

    And I know full well about those vertical stripes, for example, with flat bright reds particularly (such as what you'd get with using NeroVision back in the day - that was bad). Yes, proper decoding by interpolation is extremely important, I don't disagree.

    But is this still an issue today? I'm assuming much of it has been corrected with modern apps. Or maybe I'm using good ones now?

    For example I don't see this with VideoStudio version 12 and on. Regardless of what's going on under the hood, via 4:2:2 or RGB/YUV 4:4:4, I do believe it's using interpolation, or any rounding errors are frivolous at best, and this includes the Cedocida codec, and the encoders I now use.

    In the past day, I've been actually trying to recreate this effect to no avail. Is there a specific experiment you can suggest in case I'm still missing something? And no, don't worry. I won't delete my last 1000 posts if I did indeed miss something.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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    Well the canopus was definitely not the best solution but it's working and for what it is (a convoluted mess) it works well. I'll see about posting screens in a bit but ...
    85 minute VHS -> DVM gives me a usable 9Gb file that is clean, no real jitter, doesn't bounce all over and no artefacts.

    Convert to matted screen 722x490 (my standard res to fix scan and menu bar issues with phones and tablets) the 640x480 vhs source using commercial (paid for) h264 encoder and AAC-HE audio codec. at 820kbps and 96kbps audio
    and trim the dropouts and some pauses and fades that don't really add anything

    what I got was a file under 2 gigs that looks great at 1920x1280 on a 42 inch Samsung LCD and doesn't kill my tablet or phone to playback.

    So thanks to everyone.

    Stay AWAY FAR FAR AWAY from Toshiba DVD-Recorder units. 6 different attempts on two units; both gave me the exact same bar issues, in different locations. A horizontal digital (feedback/interference?) line across the entire screen

    The ADS converter line doesn't play nice with ATI R series hardware encoder/decoder chips. I kept getting errors because the unit couldn't figure out what or where to get the codec from. What to use, what to do. Just a dozen different errors. So my combo of Win7 and ATI R and 64 bit everything just doesn't work.

    Pinnacle standalone units aren't what they used to be. The price went up the quality went down. The Both the dazzle and the Go have issues. The Dazzle; I didn't like the old ones and I don't like the new one. Something just isn't right with them. Take hours to set up if you have anything more than a Dell pos from walmart. And the quality no matter what settings looks like my a 2year old finger painting.

    The Go, I got one, VERY nice recording. Great quality, captured from VHS directly to H264 (well, MediaInfo says it's x264 so a bit misleading) and in stunning quality. The sync was off at the end video to audio, but we're talking just enough to notice. But I hate dubs (see my other posts) so I'm sensitive to lip sync. not sure others would notice. Less than a second or two so less than 60 frams frames dropped on a 70 minute film. Not bad for a stand-alone.

    Then it died. Second film attempt and nothing. Took my PNY 32Gig stick with it. Damn. (still works after format, just corrupted the drive). That's original. lol.

    WDMytv? forget it. Like was said before and elsewhere; most of those PVR units are proprietary and I simply don't have the time I did 5-10 years ago to go racking and reverse engineering random file systems and crap. If the codec isn't unique the file system is, and vis-a-vis.

    I really wish I could get my hands on one of those Nero units again. Sad but that's the way of America. Protect the big companies and ban everything else.
    The Sony PDR units (personal disc recorder) are NOT what they were when they were first released. Granted the software and hardware is MUCH more advanced but they shut down over ANY problems thinking it's copyright flags. Way to many coasters from it. I gave up.

    So Canopus it is.

    Thanks to everyone.
    PuzZLeR: PM me for a direct email address. I'll give you a list of what I have and what this stuff is. Most of it is bootleg recording from early 80s. SunSet, Seattle, Chicago (A lot of Octagon Goth Club shows) with early Deathcore and pre death metal pre Hardcore stuff. Corpse, Grinder, Hate, some Black Flag and that type of stuff. probably a dozen tapes of Anarchy who broke up in 83 but all members went on to be some of the biggest names in Black Metal and Doom.

    But early early shows from some of the big names too.

    And a particular toilet album's pre-release. My friend's older sister was at that show and got one of the albums they tossed out to the crowd. It's mine now, and sits in a glass frame. (Why'd they change the name anyway? sellout on your first album, blah).


    Some is R2R to VHS. Much is strange or unheard of bands. The horror stuff is all WAY over the top underground .
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  25. Originally Posted by PuzZLeR View Post
    In the past day, I've been actually trying to recreate this effect to no avail. Is there a specific experiment you can suggest in case I'm still missing something? And no, don't worry. I won't delete my last 1000 posts if I did indeed miss something.
    ffdshow used to duplicate DV chroma. I don't know if it still does. At least some versions of KMPlayer's do the same (I don't really use it but have a 2 year old copy that I use occasionally for testing).

    This post has a DV sample you can use for testing DV decodesr:

    http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/335134-So-is-any-DV-codec-better-than-MainConcept-a...=1#post2080000
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  26. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    ffdshow used to duplicate DV chroma. I don't know if it still does. At least some versions of KMPlayer's do the same (I don't really use it but have a 2 year old copy that I use occasionally for testing).

    This post has a DV sample you can use for testing DV decodesr:

    http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/335134-So-is-any-DV-codec-better-than-MainConcept-a...=1#post2080000
    Thanks Jagabo. This will make a nice litmus test with DV's decoders. So far so good with my wares, but will keep this on file when testing new stuff.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  27. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lostinlodos
    Pinnacle standalone units aren't what they used to be. The price went up the quality went down. The Both the dazzle and the Go have issues. The Dazzle; I didn't like the old ones and I don't like the new one. Something just isn't right with them. Take hours to set up if you have anything more than a Dell pos from walmart. And the quality no matter what settings looks like my a 2year old finger painting.
    Yes, you're right, the Pinnacle units are not what they used to be. They went from one type of horrible to another type of horrible. Many in the Forum don't like them either. I personally like to describe them being so bad you can blame a divorce on them.

    When you mention "the Go", are you referring to Video 2 Go? Just curious.

    Originally Posted by lostinlodos
    So Canopus it is.
    You've made a good choice. Even though I love my ATI 600 and lossless, yours is probably the best quality/GB, and good-middle-of-the-road-standalone-vs-PC, and low headache, solution.

    (Well, maybe capturing to MPEG-2 is a high quality/GB solution, but the artifacts can be too numerous with some content.)

    Originally Posted by lostinlodos
    The horror stuff is all WAY over the top underground .
    The cheesier, the better!

    Originally Posted by lostinlodos
    PuzZLeR: PM me for a direct email address. I'll give you a list of what I have and what this stuff is. Most of it is bootleg recording from early 80s. SunSet, Seattle, Chicago (A lot of Octagon Goth Club shows) with early Deathcore and pre death metal pre Hardcore stuff. Corpse, Grinder, Hate, some Black Flag and that type of stuff. probably a dozen tapes of Anarchy who broke up in 83 but all members went on to be some of the biggest names in Black Metal and Doom.

    But early early shows from some of the big names too.

    And a particular toilet album's pre-release. My friend's older sister was at that show and got one of the albums they tossed out to the crowd. It's mine now, and sits in a glass frame. (Why'd they change the name anyway? sellout on your first album, blah).

    Some is R2R to VHS. Much is strange or unheard of bands.
    Black Flag as well? Cool!

    PM Sent.

    I hate VHS. I always did.
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