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  1. Just curious, but are there other containers that allow having several audio streams and imbedded soft subs similar to mkv? Ive read that its possible with MP4 but ive never actually seen it done, are there others? And if so how popular are they?
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  2. vanished El Heggunte's Avatar
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    MP4 accepts only 2 types of subtitle streams: "timed text" (officially) and VobSubs (unofficially)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_Part_17

    AVI does support "text streams", and if such streams are SRT or SSA sequences, then an adequate splitter will detect them as soft subtitles (use AVI-Mux GUI for doing the trick).

    In theory, ASF can do the same, BUT even Micro$oft themselves has never cared about implementing the idea

    (one may use "script commands" for embedding subtitles in ASF files, however only Windows Media Player will accept them).
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    Just so you know, a major problem is that because containers don't have the push of an entire industry behind them (ie. MP4 is pretty much Apple's baby and MKV is free, which means it belongs to everybody, which means it belongs to nobody in particular), manufacturers implement whatever they feel like and usually don't fully support the containers. So although MP4, for example, supports the kind of subs you asked about, individual playback devices may not support them at all or not fully. Heck, SVCD had Philips support back in the past and even their own DVD players didn't fully support multiple audio steams in SVCD, although the format allowed it. Want to create a legal MKV file that nothing but a computer can play back correctly? Simply use Divx or Xvid video and AC3 audio and put it in an MKV container. I've yet to find anything other than a PC that can play such a file (I made one once), yet it's completely legal for MKV. MP4 containers with H.264 video and AC3 audio is now fully compliant with the specifications for MP4 containers, yet some hardware devices choke on those too. Ogg can support multiple audio files and soft subtitles yet it's almost impossible to find anything but a PC that can play files in an Ogg container.
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  4. Originally Posted by El Heggunte View Post
    MP4 accepts only 2 types of subtitle streams: "timed text" (officially) and VobSubs (unofficially)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-4_Part_17

    AVI does support "text streams", and if such streams are SRT or SSA sequences, then an adequate splitter will detect them as soft subtitles (use AVI-Mux GUI for doing the trick).

    In theory, ASF can do the same, BUT even Micro$oft themselves has never cared about implementing the idea

    (one may use "script commands" for embedding subtitles in ASF files, however only Windows Media Player will accept them).

    AVI has actual advanced features? Damn.. Seems so far only MKV can have several audio streams however, the rest just seem to be able to so softsubs..

    like @jman98 mentioned, are softsubs made using that tool a standard or theyll end up only usable with PCs however? So many hardcodes couldve been avoided in the golden age of AVI because of this...
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  5. Originally Posted by jman98 View Post
    Just so you know, a major problem is that because containers don't have the push of an entire industry behind them (ie. MP4 is pretty much Apple's baby and MKV is free, which means it belongs to everybody, which means it belongs to nobody in particular), manufacturers implement whatever they feel like and usually don't fully support the containers. So although MP4, for example, supports the kind of subs you asked about, individual playback devices may not support them at all or not fully. Heck, SVCD had Philips support back in the past and even their own DVD players didn't fully support multiple audio steams in SVCD, although the format allowed it. Want to create a legal MKV file that nothing but a computer can play back correctly? Simply use Divx or Xvid video and AC3 audio and put it in an MKV container. I've yet to find anything other than a PC that can play such a file (I made one once), yet it's completely legal for MKV. MP4 containers with H.264 video and AC3 audio is now fully compliant with the specifications for MP4 containers, yet some hardware devices choke on those too. Ogg can support multiple audio files and soft subtitles yet it's almost impossible to find anything but a PC that can play files in an Ogg container.

    I know what you mean, ive learned this the hard way when ripping my DVDs to H.264 while keeping the AC3 stream intact.. Seems theres to be always a de-facto audio codec that goes hand in hand when the industry chooses a video codec (AC3/MP3 with Xvid/Divx, AAC with H.264) I guess Apple got the last laugh when their codec and container of choice became the new standard almost (i.e MP4 replacing AVI)
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  6. I'm a Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jman98 View Post
    Want to create a legal MKV file that nothing but a computer can play back correctly? Simply use Divx or Xvid video and AC3 audio and put it in an MKV container. I've yet to find anything other than a PC that can play such a file (I made one once), yet it's completely legal for MKV.
    My sony bdp-s380 plays xvid with 5.1 ac3 in mkv with no issues.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
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  7. vanished El Heggunte's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Chiggy View Post
    AVI has actual advanced features? Damn.. Seems so far only MKV can have several audio streams however, the rest just seem to be able to so softsubs..
    http://www.alexander-noe.com/video/amg/en_myths.html

    like @jman98 mentioned, are softsubs made using that tool a standard or theyll end up only usable with PCs however? So many hardcodes couldve been avoided in the golden age of AVI because of this...
    Today I don't care anymore about making stuff compatible with hardware players,
    too many headaches for a grumpy and impatient old man like me
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  8. Originally Posted by El Heggunte View Post
    Today I don't care anymore about making stuff compatible with hardware players,
    I'd say it is pretty simple, x264 default values, limit buffers - 30.000 or so for HD , low reference frame number and any player should play that, if not it is a junk ...
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  9. _Al_'s idea sounds about right to me. I've given up on anamorphic encoding to keep players happy and I always hardcode subs so as not to have to think about them again, but aside from that, a player either plays my encodes or it's junk . (Even my 2 year old smartphone's hardware decoder will happily play my encodes)

    I use High Profile Level 4.1 and an appropriate x264 tuning. Recently I found a 1080p sample with a peak bitrate of around 100,000kbps. The Sony Bluray player played it but the media player built into my TV did a lot of stuttering. As did my video card when decoding it (DXVA).

    I re-encoded it using a low CRF value (to increase the average bitrate a bit) while using different VBV values. It surprised me a little, but even my video card wouldn't decode it smoothly when using the maximum vbv values for High Profile, Level 4.1 (--vbv-bufsize 78125 --vbv-maxrate 62500 ). My TV and video card both managed to play it without stuttering with --vbv-bufsize 58000 and --vbv-maxrate 58000. Mind you my encodes would probably never come close to exceeding those anyway.....
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  10. vanished El Heggunte's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    Originally Posted by El Heggunte View Post
    Today I don't care anymore about making stuff compatible with hardware players,
    I'd say it is pretty simple, x264 default values, limit buffers - 30.000 or so for HD , low reference frame number and any player should play that, if not it is a junk ...
    My previous answer intended to be "more on-topic", so to speak. I mean, I stopped wasting time with `hard-subbing´, or with resampling/reencoding audio, or with limiting the video bitrate --- since a PC and its software can have much less restrictions than a SAP.
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