TMPGEnc mpeg2 output

[glenpinn]

But you said you knew nobody that had a BD player. Even just in my neighborhood, I would say maybe 5 of 10 have BD players. But 10/10 probably have DVD players. Personally I hate optical discs

well when i say nobody i know has a bluray player, , that would be about 40 that i am aware of (mostly family) but maybe in my neighbourhood, well i have no idea on that, however i have already asked the owners of 2 of our local movie hire stores, and they still do mostly dvd rentals because that is what the demand is for, and they do not keep very many titles in bluray because they jst sit there.

anyway, i too dislike optical media, always have done.

[_Al_]

I used this script below to make 25i SD from 50p HD -1 Mona Roma source (1.5min 1080-50p m2ts @ 24.0Mbps) ,
no shimmering, this was discussed here lately, where that low pass filter was recommended:

Directshowsource("mona.m2ts")
LanczosResize(720,576)
Blur(0,1.2)
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4, 0, 3).Weave()

spline resize would be perhaps better choice,
if I wanted to edit those clips it would be loaded into Vegas for example and exported to HCEncoder using frame server,
25p would looks kind of bad if 50p was original (and especially with short shutter speeds) , and that shimmering is reduced by applying vertical blur (low pass filter)

also I did not change color space to BT.601in the script

[manono]

hi, so after seeing my source video, you recommend i convert to mpeg2 using interlaced as PDR suggested.

No, I haven't downloaded it. Based on what I've been reading in this thread about it and that it's 50p I think I'd reinterlace it for DVD.

well when i say nobody i know has a bluray player...

Then you don't know people with a PS3 or 4?

Personally I hate optical discs

I love them. Nothing says "I own you" quite like having the disc.

[glenpinn]

No, I haven't downloaded it. Based on what I've been reading in this thread about it and that it's 50p I think I'd reinterlace it for DVD.

Then you don't know people with a PS3 or 4?

ok thx, i am doing my wifes 50th birthday file to mpeg2 right now in "interlace" mode just to test it out.

as for bluray players, i was referring to dedicated bluray plyers, not game consoles, but the only console i know of is my daughters xbox 360, and i have no idea what that plays.

cheers

[glenpinn]

hey guys, without throwing too many spanners in the works here, this is relating to a guy i know here in sydney who has an avchd camera, and he sent me one of his camera source files, and a copy of his output to dvd, and he complained that his dvd was very jerky.

i checked his files with Mediainfo, to find his avchd file to be 1080i @ 29.97pfp, and his dvd was created using windows DVD Maker, but it was 720x576 pal @ 25p (progressive)

he bought the camera online from some asian camera store, so he obviously had no idea that his camera was an ntsc version.

anyway, i output the source file to an mpeg2 file (720x480 @ 29.97 interlaced) and it was fine.

so, here is my question, what are the ramifications of outputting one of my own 1080/50p m2ts files to a 720x480 ntsc mpeg2 file using say TMPGEnc.

[manono]

Playstations are very good Blu-Ray players and better than most. Maybe you don't know people with them, but they should certainly be included in any list of Blu-Ray players. That's all I use ours for (my wife bought it and plays games sometimes).

...i am doing my wifes 50th birthday file to mpeg2 right now in "interlace" mode just to test it out.

As I tried to make clear before, progressive content can be (and usually is, if for PAL) encoded as interlaced. Has the 50p actually been converted to 25i, or did you only remove every other progressive frame to make it 25p before encoding as interlaced? That is, was anything done like what _Al_ showed in his script above? If not you'll get the slight jerkiness during slow pans as with any 25p video and lose the fluidity of motion which is interlaced video's only advantage over progressive video when it's for DVD.

[manono]

so, here is my question, is it really possible to take a 1080/50p m2ts and create an ntsc dvd from that, not that i would, but i am just curious if it "can" be done.

Of course it can. And your friend could have made a decent-looking PAL interlaced DVD with his 29.97fps source, too, but he didn't know what he was doing and used Windows DVD Maker for the job.

[glenpinn]

so, here is my question, is it really possible to take a 1080/50p m2ts and create an ntsc dvd from that, not that i would, but i am just curious if it "can" be done.

Of course it can. And your friend could have made a decent-looking PAL interlaced DVD with his 29.97fps source, too, but he didn't know what he was doing and used Windows DVD Maker for the job.

sorry i edited my last post after you replied, anyway, it doesnt matter, i was curious because i have an american sister in law here in australia who asked me some time ago if i could convert her citizenship cerimony video to dvd for her to send back to her parents in USA, but i didnt really think it would be something one could do successfully, with changing framerates etc.

so what is the best way to go about doing a 1080/50p m2ts to an ntsc dvd.

cheers

[glenpinn]

That is, was anything done like what _Al_ showed in his script above? If not you'll get the slight jerkiness during slow pans as with any 25p video and lose the fluidity of motion which is interlaced video's only advantage over progressive video when it's for DVD.

i never used any script, just imported the source file into TMPGE and selected interlace rather than progressive in the output profile.

EDIT: i just completed a 1080/50p output to an ntsc mpeg2 file (720x480 @ 29.97fps interlaced) and it seems the same as the pal mpeg2.

can i ask why a 720x576 pal mpeg2 file displays at 1024x576 when played on the pc, but the 720x480 ntsc mpeg2 displays at a smaller resolution.

[DB83]

To answer your last question.

DVD pixels are non-square. The PAL non-square 16:9 @720*576 SAR converts to 1024*576 square (576/9*16 = 1024). Vertical resolution is retained.

If the same equation for NTSC 16:9 @720*480 SAR is made we get 854*480 square (480/9*16=854 rounded).

[sanlyn]

Fine wires and textures like telephone aerials, roofing, clothing textures, have shimmer and aliasing; they appear somewhat in the 25p version but are more obvious in 25i. This might be due to 60Hz in my monitor and TV, but I also see it in many resized NTSC formats as well, including some telecined HD broadecasts downsampled for DVD. That's a fault of various resizing methods, not TMPGenc's encoder.

The color balance in both mpg's looks oddly "raw" or "over processed", if you know what I mean. Finally occurred to me that no special care was taken going from Rec709 to Rec601. I don't know of any "editor" from small or big names that do it correctly. I usually do that in Avisynth. The color appears to have lost its vibrance and looks too cyan and under saturated for the kind of light in this scene. But tools like Avisynth and VirtualDub aren't one-button silver bullets. They require more time and patience than most users are willing to take for their clients. It's too late to fix any of those problems.

The chroma and luma levels exceed 16-240. They look rather washed-out on TV. I know that mp2 audio was valid for PAL DVD, but standard AC3 is much newer technology and has audibly better dynamics compared to the flat sound of mp2. Apparently this DVD conversion is intended for PC-only playback.

[glenpinn]

To answer your last question.

DVD pixels are non-square. The PAL non-square 16:9 @720*576 SAR converts to 1024*576 square (576/9*16 = 1024). Vertical resolution is retained.

If the same equation for NTSC 16:9 @720*480 SAR is made we get 854*480 square (480/9*16=854 rounded).

thanks, i knew it was related to the vertical height retained, so i should have realized it was to do with non square pixels.

cheers

[poisondeathray]

Personally I hate optical discs

I love them. Nothing says "I own you" quite like having the disc.

It's a necessary evil right now, because "streaming" versions that you buy are lower quality than BD's. But the first thing I do is rip them to HDD.

Playstations are very good Blu-Ray players and better than most.

Yes, interestingly for years it was actually the "benchmark" for BD players

i have already asked the owners of 2 of our local movie hire stores, and they still do mostly dvd rentals because that is what the demand is for, and they do not keep very many titles in bluray because they jst sit there.

It's good that you asked them now, because they'll probably be out of business very soon. There is a strong downward trend of optical media. The Hollywood cash cow heyday is over. Net is becoming more predominant for distribution

[_Al_]

so what is the best way to go about doing a 1080/50p m2ts to an ntsc dvd.

Directshowsource("HD_1080_50p_source.m2ts")
Spline16Resize(720,480)
ConvertFPS(59.94)
Blur(0,0.5) # something between 0.5 - 1.5, whatever works
ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601")
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4, 0, 3).Weave()

Avisynth script was loaded into HcEncoder

HD should be primary delivery, thumbdrives are cheap, DVD is just to make sure there is going to be no problems on receiving end

[manono]

i never used any script, just imported the source file into TMPGE and selected interlace rather than progressive in the output profile.

EDIT: i just completed a 1080/50p output to an ntsc mpeg2 file (720x480 @ 29.97fps interlaced) and it seems the same as the pal mpeg2.

That's because it is, just with more progressive frames retained (hard to know for sure without a sample). It wasn't interlaced, only encoded so. The content is still progressive.

Directshowsource("HD_1080_50p_source.m2ts")
Spline16Resize(720,480)
ConvertFPS(59.94)
Blur(0,0.5) # something between 0.5 - 1.5, whatever works
ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601")
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4, 0, 3).Weave()

Nice script but I don't like to blur fields purposely. I prefer the sharper ChangeFPS, even at the risk of introducing some very slight jerkiness. Maybe it's a personal choice.

Edit changed 'frames' to 'fields' since that's what's being blurred.

[_Al_]

That is the thing, that shimmering might drive some crazy, so it is brought down a bit, but then it is not that sharp, I guess there cannot be both sharp and no interlace line shimmering.

When camera is in constant motion, jerking left and right, ConvertFPS should give better overall feel, I think, and here especially after that vertical blur but nevertheless here is comparison, ChangeFPS(59.94) is used here:

[poisondeathray]

I would use (60000,1001), because 59.94 is an approximation. Some strict authoring tools will reject the stream

I would use clamp=0 for colormatrix, otherwise it will clip (not clamp) superbright/superdark values

[_Al_]

1080p50 to DVD 29.97i:

Directshowsource("HD_1080_50p_source.m2ts")
Spline16Resize(720,480)
ConvertFPS(60000,1001)
Blur(0,0.5) # something between 0.5 - 1.5, whatever works
ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601", clamp=0)
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4, 0, 3).Weave()

[_Al_]

but that clipping:
first jpg is without clamp, second picture to the right with clamp=0, I thought we do not want those superbrights on DVD

[manono]

but that clipping:
first jpg is without clamp, second picture to the right with clamp=0, I thought we do not want those superbrights on DVD

If you don't want them then the best way is to bring them down with Tweak or ColorYUV, and not by clipping them. I should have noted the lack of Clamp=0 myself, as I always use it when going from Hi-Def to DVD.

[_Al_]

Question is, why we do not want them those superbrights (or superblacks)?
I thought the only reason is broadcast, regulations, old TV's - CRT's.
Is there any other reason?

[poisondeathray]

It depends on how they are calibrated, but most TV's & HDTV's actually display superbrights >235, but not superdarks. Most computer monitors will not display either of those values . Those areas are provisioned for undershoot and overshoot. You're allowed to have excursions, you're just not supposed to have a lot of values there. Many retail DVD's do have those excursions.

So if your target is for PC , you should "legalize" the values since they will likely be clipped on display. What you don't want to do is have that line where everything is bunched together - there is no separation, it's effectively clipped. "Clamping" implies "squishing" all the range of values into 235 (e.g. levels (0,1,255,0,235, coring=false) ). So some separation would remain - you would retain the details in the bright areas like clouds, "white" rooftops - it wouldn't be a hard line . A hard line means all that data is essentially 1 "shade", so the details would be missing . But if you were going to "legalize" the values, you probably wouldn't want to use levels like that, you probably want to preferentially bring down highlights

[glenpinn]

hey guys, i cant believe this thread has gone along so well, i have taken everything in, i learnt a lot, and as much as the suggestions for using Avisynth scripts for output to mpeg2 (dvd) were welcomed, i feel that for consumer use, the tmpge default output offers a very good result, and i think their outputs are great.

now, having said all that, i have been using Video Redo as my primary editing and converting software for many great reasons, and never have to look at any other software for any of my needs, however because they had this shimmering issue with their mpeg2 outputs, i had to resort to using (buying) TMPGE for these 2 recent dvd outputs requested by a wedding client, and one of my tourism clients.

so, after running a topic over at the VRD forum regarding the mpeg2 shimmering issue with their software, DanR from the forum has emailed me the new version to install, and offered one of his own mpeg2 outputs using my source file, and all i can say is that the issue has now been well and truly fixed, and the resulting output using their default profile is wonderful, i am very impressed with the big difference, and the colors and sharpness looks very nice to me, and i can honestly say that Dans effort has now made it possible for me to use VRD for my mpeg2 outputs, along with all the other outputs that i use VRD for.

as for my newly purchased Mastering & Authoring Works 5 bundle, well they wont go unused, but i will be using Authoring works now for outputting my VRD mpeg2 files to dvd, because there is no further encoding that takes place.

cheers everyone, and thanks for all the help.

[_Al_]

"squishing" all the range of values into 235 (e.g. levels (0,1,255,0,235, coring=false)

nice tip, thanks

Directshowsource("mona.m2ts")
Spline16Resize(720,480)
ConvertFPS(60000,1001)
Blur(0,0.5) # something between 0.5 - 1.5, whatever works
ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601", clamp=0)
levels (0,1,255,0,235, coring=false)
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4, 0, 3).Weave()

[poisondeathray]

@glenpinn - yes videoredo is a great program and they are good at responding to feedback. I've never used it for resizing and encoding like you did here but I'm sure they're happy you helped debug the issue

@_Al_ - you probably wouldn't use those values for levels if you wanted to "legalize", because the overall average brightness will drop. I'm assuming you'd want to keep the "bright outdoor" look . I only suggested those values to demonstrate the difference between effective "clipping" and what "clamping" would look like. In this case you'd probably want to selectively bring down the superbrights

[glenpinn]

@glenpinn - yes videoredo is a great program and they are good at responding to feedback. I've never used it for resizing and encoding like you did here but I'm sure they're happy you helped debug the issue

yes all the devs and other highly skillful members in the VRD forum are tops, and i am eagerly awaiting their next major release version that will finally support importing of ProRes files, which is the format that i sometimes shoot in using my Ninja2 recording device connected to my AC90 camera, and i sometimes get ProRes files from others who shoot their video using the amazing little Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera.

cheers.

[MindController]

You can go to filter, select the filter option for picture resize and change the picture position option to full screen (no margin). That works for me to get rid of the black edges when I convert video files to DVD.

[glenpinn]

You can go to filter, select the filter option for picture resize and change the picture position option to full screen (no margin). That works for me to get rid of the black edges when I convert video files to DVD.

hi, yes this black bar issue was resolved in the first few posts, howwever there is no way for me that i can find that lets me change that filter setting, and save it as the default, every time i open TMPGE it has reverted back to default.

if this is a known issue for 1080 to dvd mpeg2 output, i am curious why they have not rectified it, or am i the only one having this issue.

cheers

[glenpinn]

hi guys, sorry but i i think i did ask before, and many people seem split over this one, but 1080/50p m2ts to Mpeg2 at 6 to 8Mbps, i have tested outputs with both 1 pass and 2 passes with VRD because i can set my profile to either, and i cant tell the difference, but TMPGEnc seems to do a double pass on these outputs by default, and several years ago when i was converting DV-Avi format from tape to Mpeg2 i always did 2 passes.

so does it really matter in the overall scheme of things.

cheers

[manono]

so does it really matter in the overall scheme of things.

As long as that single pass is VBR quality-based and not CBR, no.