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  1. Member
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    hi there, i just started outputting a 1080/50p m2ts file from my camera to a dvd compliant mpeg2 program stream using TPGEnc M/W5 and while watching the video output in the preview screen, there is a very thin black bar down each side of the preview player, and it is there when i play the mpeg2 file back on tv and on my led pc screen.

    i am very happy with the quality of the output, far better than any other software i have tried, my video remains progressive, 720x576 pal, 16x9 output, 8000br, mpeg layer2 audio (as set by tmpge) and best of all, unlike any of the other programs i used, i dont get any shimmering or zig-zag effect on lines while the camera is panning or moving.

    just need to try and sort this added bars thing out before i buy mastering works 5 and authoring works 5 as a bundle.

    the following links are screen captures of the preview screen and the playback on my pc screen using MPC-hc, and of my mpeg2 output settings.

    http://www.mediafire.com/view/h4ma6tb5mvwqq4e/tmpge_2_Preview.jpg#
    http://www.mediafire.com/view/y65o3r48t54xf6r/tmpge_3_Playback.jpg#
    http://www.mediafire.com/view/5vf554apea7wdo4/tmpge_1_Settings.jpg#

    cheers.
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    It's giving you the technically correct 704 pixel raster rather than 720. To "fix" it, go to the Picture resize filter, choose Full screen (no margin), uncheck Keep aspect ratio, and save that as a default.
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    Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post


    i am very happy with the quality of the output, far better than any other software i have tried, my video remains progressive, 720x576 pal, 16x9 output, 8000br, mpeg layer2 audio (as set by tmpge) and best of all, unlike any of the other programs i used, i dont get any shimmering or zig-zag effect on lines while the camera is panning or moving.
    Other programs can do that too. By default they attempt to encode interlaced to preserve the motion

    You're encoding 25p (dropping 1/2 the temporal information) . It's a trade off for DVD between keeping progressive vs. having lower motion samples, because 50p isn't supported by DVD-video
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    Please note that TMPGenc has been rather infamous since the day it was created for laughing at compliance with its bit rates. If your maximum bit rate is 8000 Kbps or higher, there is always a chance that TMPGenc will produce output with brief spikes well above DVD compliance values (roughly 9600 Kbps, depending on the audio bit rate). Some authoring programs may complain if you give them briefly non-compliant video and some DVD players may have problems with video that exceeds the specifications. Having video stick to your specified maximum bit rate is one of the reasons that many of us prefer to encode with HCenc for MPEG-2. HCenc is also free. I'm not guaranteeing you that TMPGenc will give you non-compliant video, but unfortunately it is possible with it if your maximum bit rate is high enough. Just to be careful if you must use it, you probably should set the maximum bit rate to 7000 Kbps or lower as with those values it shouldn't exceed the maximum bir rate allowed, but even then I can't give you a total guarantee that it won't.
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 02:16.
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Other programs can do that too. By default they attempt to encode interlaced to preserve the motion

    You're encoding 25p (dropping 1/2 the temporal information) . It's a trade off for DVD between keeping progressive vs. having lower motion samples, because 50p isn't supported by DVD-video
    hi, why is it that many conversion tools that claim to output to dvd or mpeg2 files from any source cant output the files without this horrid shimmering or zig-zag effect in the video, especially in the scenes where the camera pans even slightly.

    of all the programs i have tried, TMPGEnc and DVDFab are the only 2 that dont have this playback issue, and DVDFab i cant even create a profile, it just outputs the 1080/50p m2ts direct to an authored dvd folder, where in TMPGEnc i have control over my settings, however the only settings i change from default is selecting 720x576 @ 16x9, and set to progressive for the progressive source file.

    the other day i went to the VideoReDo forum and i sent the developers a short sample of one of my 1080/50p source files, plus an mpeg2 output from Video ReDo (which does shimmer) and TMPGEnc, and they think they have found the reason for ReDo having that issue, and will be in touch when they have sorted it out, until then, i already bought the TMPGEnc Mastering Works and Authoring Works 5 as a bundle, even tho i wont use them much, at least i know that TMPGEnc will give me a reasonable mpeg2 file for authoring to dvd for any client who wants one, as for DVDFab, i only use it to rip dvd movies, otherwise i dont bother with it.

    i also understand that dvd cannot handle 50p video, so reframing it to 25p is a trade off, and you do notice a slight jerkiness to the video in panning scenes, but the mild jerkiness is not the same issue as the "Shimmering" effect i refer to above, shimmering is what it says, its not jerkiness.

    anyway, to explain my case, if anyone wants to download a short 1.5min 1080/50p m2ts sample clip, with the tmpgenc and VRD mpeg2 outputs to compare, these are the 3 links from my mediafire cloud storage account.

    Please excuse these stupid Mediafire links, they are meant to allow you to download the files directly, not open their retarded video preview screen, so i am trying to fix it.

    1 Mona Roma source (1.5min 1080/50p m2ts @ 24.0Mbps) 270mb
    http://www.mediafire.com/download/u7yo67cr7vi3y0y/1_Mona_Roma_source_(1.5min_1080-50p_..._24.0Mbps.m2ts

    2 Mona Roma (tmpge 720x576 mpeg2 @ constant 8000br) 96mb
    http://www.mediafire.com/watch/h20zm0vvh09m5ub/2_Mona_Roma_(tmpge_720x576_mpeg2_@_cons...r)_8.0Mbps.mpg

    6 Mona Roma (vrd 720x576 mpeg2 @ 8000br) 92mb
    http://www.mediafire.com/watch/x6321b54nl9cf3n/6_Mona_Roma_(vrd_720x576_mpeg2_@_8000br)_7.6Mbps.mpg

    Originally Posted by jman98 View Post
    Please note that TMPGenc has been rather infamous since the day it was created for laughing at compliance with its bit rates.
    in my TMPGEnc test outputs to mpeg2 i used constant 6000 & 8000 + variable 6000 & 8000 and in the sample file i offered above, i did the output at 8000 constant to make it comparable to my VRD mpeg2 output which was set to 8000.

    i always thought mpeg2 should use a constant br, however please let me know if i am wrong.

    i also dont really see much difference between 7000 & 8000 bitrte for mpeg2, and many times in the past i had used only 6000br, but that was more in keeping to fitting the content to a single layer dvd.
    Last edited by glenpinn; 14th Mar 2014 at 17:21.
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    The difference is interlaced vs . progressive . You can read up on it as it's been discussed many times. You can choose to do that with any program (at least any decent program). It's a "25p DVD" vs. a 25i DVD (also called 50i DVD, same thing as 25i, just different naming conventions)

    Interlaced fields are like 1/2 frames. When they are deinterlaced for progressive displays, you're at the mercy of the algorithm used. Most HDTV' s use a simple "bob" which just resizes fields. Thus you get "shimmering" and aliasing (jaggies). In motion those jaggies look like "shimmering" , especially on straight diagonal lines. Essentially the benefit is full temporal resolution, half spatial . Smoother motion, at the expense of deinterlacing artifacts. 25p is the "opposite" - full spatial, half temporal - jerky motion, but no deinterlacing artifacts.

    More expensive hardware apply better deinterlacing algorithms, temporal algorithms, and antialiasing algorithms that approximate closer to 50p.

    True 50p is the best of both worlds, but not supported by DVD-video
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    Hold on - it looks like your "interlaced" DVD in the "vrd" sample wasn't produced properly . It's actually 25p content with screwed up fields, encoded as interlaced
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    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    Never had a problem with any TMPGenc product. No encoder sticks precisely to specified bitrates, especially if you want VBR. I do wonder that TVMW5 let the O.P. get away with "Progressive 2:2 pulldown" from 1080p for standard definition output. PAL DVD/BD/AVCHD is 25fps interlaced.
    Mediainfo shows my tmpgenc and VRD mpeg2 outputs are 720x576 @ 25 progressive, tmpge is 8.0Mbps because i used constant 8000br, and VRD was 7.6Mbps using their 8000br output setting.

    you can download those files and check them if you like, i just wanted to sort that thin black bar issue out in this thread, however it appears that it now involves my output issue using other mpeg2 conversion programs where i get that shimmering/zig-zag effect in the output files.

    other than the black bars issue, which smrpix seems to have resolved for me, i have no issues with TMPGEnc m/w5 for mpeg2 outputs, i used to use their older versions several years ago and was always happy with it, but for all my other editing/conversion work, VRD will always be my choice because of the way it works, the editing tool is great, and their support forum is the best i have ever had the pleasure of being part of, at least the developers are in there all the time helping members out with any of their issues.

    cheers
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Hold on - it looks like your "interlaced" DVD in the "vrd" sample wasn't produced properly
    Yep thats correct, they think they found out why it happened, and are testing it further as i speak.

    update:
    apparently they worked out the issue was with their "resizer" and are fixing it.

    how come Mediainfo says both those mpeg2 files are "progressive"

    in case you are curious, this is my VRD profile for 1080/50p output to mpeg2

    vrd 1 1080-50p m2ts to mpeg2 Profile
    http://www.mediafire.com/watch/wnv338ke5ggfmb6/8_Mona_Roma_(vrd_720x576_mpeg2_@_143%)_3.2Mbps.mpg
    Last edited by glenpinn; 14th Mar 2014 at 17:24.
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    Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post

    how come Mediainfo says both those mpeg2 files are "progressive"
    Apologies, the vrd file is encoded progressive as well. I was making a lot of assumptions without looking at the files... Anyways , it's messed up and the dev's know about it

    But I don't see how any program can make that sort of mistake - you refer to "all these other programs" producing similar results as the VRD sample ? Which ones would those be ?

    You should at least compare an interlaced DVD. Because for non stabilized handheld shooting , it will look much smoother. View how smooth the motion is in your 50p original
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 14th Mar 2014 at 17:21.
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    Am I missing something here ?

    You start with HD video which you deliberately 'vandalise' to SD.

    Surely you would be better off retaining that 50p HD and create Blu-ray instead of Dvd. You might have to reduce your resolution to 1280*720 to be BD compliant (think I got that bit right)

    But each to his own I suppose.
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  13. Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post
    i always thought mpeg2 should use a constant br, however please let me know if i am wrong.
    Okay, you're wrong. Just have a look at the encoding for any decent quality PAL DVD movie or video.
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Am I missing something here ?

    You start with HD video which you deliberately 'vandalise' to SD.

    Surely you would be better off retaining that 50p HD and create Blu-ray instead of Dvd. You might have to reduce your resolution to 1280*720 to be BD compliant (think I got that bit right)

    But each to his own I suppose.
    hi, this mpeg2/dvd conversion is not for me, it is for a client who i shot some video for, and he needs a copy put onto dvd for a few family members who still use dvd players, and i agree with you tho, who would slaughter their HD video like that, it would be criminally insane to do it and not keep the original files, but i do know people who are shooting 1080 avchd and do convert it to dvd then delete the HD video.

    i shoot all my video in 1080/50p avchd @ 26Mbps, i edit that video, and mux it back to m2ts without re-encoding it (using VRD smart rendering) and this is the file i archive.

    you can see a sample of one of my 1080/50p videos in the link above.

    i also mux that video file to an mp4 container, again using VRD smart rendering, and i then output another copy to 720/50p m2ts (which is bluray compliant) and another to 720/50p mp4, both these are @ 12Mbps.

    i shoot most of my video in roaming mode, using a custom made monopod, or one of my many custom made hand held rigs, and because it is shot like this, my video needs to be shot at 50p because of all the camera movement, if i shoot in 25p mode it looks horrid, and most will already understand this.

    the reason i do 4 outputs for them is because of the various types of playback support options.

    most HD tv's now are full HD, but many people still have the standard HD tv with the 1366x768 resolution, and most will have a built in media player via USB port, but depending on the type and age of the tv, not all formats will be supported, but most HD tv's will support one of those 4 formats that i use.

    many wont cope with 1080/50p but they will play 720/50p, some will cope with 1080/50p but only in mp4 container, so by giving them these 4 outputs, all bases should be covered.

    however, i recently came across a client who needs a copy on dvd as well, so here i was, originally trying to sort this balack bar issue out with TMPGEnc on my mpeg2 files, but now its turned into a more serious issue with mpeg2 conversion.

    hope this explained a few things out for you.
    Last edited by glenpinn; 14th Mar 2014 at 18:25.
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post
    i always thought mpeg2 should use a constant br, however please let me know if i am wrong.
    Okay, you're wrong. Just have a look at the encoding for any decent quality PAL DVD movie or video.
    ok so i was wrong, i based that comment on what i had seen written elsewhere, and thats why i asked to correct me if it was wrong, however in this case, it makes no difference to this shimmering issue.

    its been years since i have done dvd conversions so my brain needs re-working thru all this dvd stuff.
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post

    how come Mediainfo says both those mpeg2 files are "progressive"
    Apologies, the vrd file is encoded progressive as well. I was making a lot of assumptions without looking at the files... Anyways , it's messed up and the dev's know about it

    But I don't see how any program can make that sort of mistake - you refer to "all these other programs" producing similar results as the VRD sample ? Which ones would those be ?

    You should at least compare an interlaced DVD. Because for non stabilized handheld shooting , it will look much smoother. View how smooth the motion is in your 50p original
    yes the VRD devs reckon its the "resizer causing the issue, and i hope they fix it.

    so if the tmpge and VRD mpeg2 files are progressive, why can they still be authored and burnt to dvd, because i see it written that pal dvd is meant to be interlaced to work on dvd, so im confused.

    i think that the TMPGEnc mpeg2 file is great, apart from the very mild jerkiness caused by the 50p drop to 25p, which is always going to happen.

    the other dvd tools i tried are MediaConverter 8, DVD Flick, VRD, and some crappy AVS program that i used some time ago.
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 02:16.
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    ok guys, well i just downloaded a newer version of tool called AVStoDVD and output the same 1080/50p file to a dvd mpeg2 p/s file and it did it the same as TMPGEnc, no shimmering, and no side bars, and Mediainfo tells me it is 720x576 pal @ 25p (progressive) and 8.5Mbps (not sure if it is fixed or variable) and it has ac3 audio

    now, i have not looked into this tool much as yet, i just did their default mpeg2 output, so i will take a further look to see if there is any way i can alter the bitrate.
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    just an update on the TMPGEnc mpeg2 output, i fixed the Picture Resizer issue to stop the thin bars on my mpeg2 file.

    i also just did another output of that 1080/50p source file using interlaced mode, with variable 8000br and it looks identical to the progressive output, so can someone please confirm if i should stick to interlaced on the 1080/50p to mpeg2, or stick to progressive.

    Originally Posted by smrpix View Post
    It's giving you the technically correct 704 pixel raster rather than 720. To "fix" it, go to the Picture resize filter, choose Full screen (no margin), uncheck Keep aspect ratio, and save that as a default.
    thanks a lot, this fixed the bars issue on playback, and i finally worked out how to save that new Picture Resize filter, but every time i open TMPGEnc back up and go to that filyer, it has reset back to the original, so is there any fix for this.

    also curious why TMPGEnc does not already have this filter set that way by default.

    cheers
    Last edited by glenpinn; 14th Mar 2014 at 19:53.
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    704 width is only "technically correct" if you're using ITU aspect ratio rules (it's actually 702 width but rounded to 704) . Retail DVD's can use either. Generally, recent (within the last decade) "Hollywood" productions don't use ITU spec rules. Analog sourced DVD's tend to use ITU rules. Aspect ratio is a big topic and there are several large, large threads discussing it here and on Doom9 if you want more info .


    i also just did another output of that 1080/50p source file using interlaced mode, with variable 8000br and it looks identical to the progressive output, so can someone please confirm if i should stick to interlaced on the 1080/50p to mpeg2, or stick to progressive.
    Generally you use interlaced DVD, if your content dictates it. Things with lots of motion , like sports, hand held shots. Generally "home video" DVD's would use interlaced to preserve the motion because they are usually hand held. Cinematic productions are usually shot with stabilization gear, sliders, etc... , shallow depth of field, different type of framing - those techniques help to mimize the motion problems with 24p or 25p shooting.

    If you made an interlaced DVD, and you viewed it on a DVD player/TV combo, the motion characteristics should look the same as the 1080p50 original . I would say that's a fairly big difference between interlaced and progressive DVD in those shots when you're moving the camera
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    If you made an interlaced DVD, and you viewed it on a DVD player/TV combo, the motion characteristics should look the same as the 1080p50 original . I would say that's a fairly big difference between interlaced and progressive DVD in those shots when you're moving the camera
    ok thx, so from what you see in my 1080/50p source file, you suggest i use 720x576 @ 16x9 with interlace mode set, not progressive.

    these are tmpge mpeg output in both modes.

    720x576 @ 25p
    http://www.mediafire.com/watch/r5xok72r23ptqib/2_tmpge_(720x576p_mpeg2_@_vbr_8000)_progressive.mpg

    720x576 @ 25i
    http://www.mediafire.com/watch/pkjwie7obku5t4k/3_tmpge_(720x576i_mpeg2_@_vbr_8000)_interlaced.mpg

    again because these are mpeg2 files the silly mediafire player displays them at their actual resolution, and not 16x9

    you need to download them and watch on your own pc.
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    I didn't download the "new" 25p file, because I saw an example earlier and it looked fine and followed ITU resizing rules

    The "25i" file , if viewed on a pc, must be viewed with proper software, or a deinterlacer set to "bob" . For example, if you used VLC, you could set it to "bob" or "yadif 2x" . If it's not, then the motion characteristics will look like 25p, not 50p . 50p what it will look like in a regular DVD/HTDV setup . Some media players might single rate deinterlace by default - then it will look the same as your 25p file in terms of motion

    I don't know what the rest of the content is like, but if it's like your samples, personally I would make an interlaced DVD
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    I don't know what the rest of the content is like, but if it's like your samples, personally I would make an interlaced DVD
    ok thx, i dislike VLC so i use MPC-hc because it seems to offer me the best playback, but thats personal choice, and generally i am only previewing my mpeg2 files on my editing pc until i get them to dvd.

    i personally dont bother with dvd for reasons i mentioned up the page regarding my HD workflow for myself and most clients.

    i will author the 2 tmpge mpeg2 files (25p &25i) to a disc and view them on my HD tv and see what both are like compared to the 50p source file.

    as i previously mentioned up the page, i dont shoot much video on a tripod, i use my own custom monopod, or one of my custom hand held rigs to shoot with, mainly because i shoot in roaming mode, so i chose a camera with the best available Auto Focus and OIS systems i could find, and in the consumer class i use a panasonic HDC-SDT750 as my 2nd unit (my source file for this topic was shot using that camera) and i use a panasonic AG-AC90 as my main camera, and i would be lost without 1080/50p video mode, because i hate 25p for roaming video.

    in some cases where the need arises, i connect a Ninja2 recording device to the AC90 using hdmi, and i record direct from the sensor in 180Mbps ProRes onto a 1tb laptop hdd inside the ninja device, but it only records in 25p mode, no 50p yet
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    MPCHC will depend on how you have it configured

    Yeah it's a painful feeling degrading it to DVD . But if a client requests it, what can you do ? Many people still use DVD and have SD TV's

    Blu-ray will be the next "DVD" in a few years . We're going to look back and hate 1080p
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    MPCHC will depend on how you have it configured
    Yeah it's a painful feeling degrading it to DVD . But if a client requests it, what can you do ? Many people still use DVD and have SD TV's
    Blu-ray will be the next "DVD" in a few years
    hi, thx a lot for all your help, i think i stick to 25i for tmpge mpeg2 from my source files.

    as well as outputting my own, and my clients videos to 3 other formats for full playback support on various devices (1080/50p mp4 + 720/50p m2ts + 720/50p mp4) i can use the 720/50p m2ts to author to bluray if it is required, however i have never had any client ask for their videos to be converted to bluray, they all want them stored on a usb powered portable hdd to play back on their HD tv,s.

    i still do not know anyone who owns a bluray player, most still use a dvd player, so bluray definately is not yet mainstream consumer format, dvd still lives on, yet many people have a HD tv but dont realize it has a built in media player via usb.

    ironically, when many dont even have a bluray player, some are now touting consumer 4k is just around the corner, and that is something i laugh off as a silly joke.

    cheers
    Last edited by glenpinn; 14th Mar 2014 at 22:38.
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    tech saavy people tend to want digital files, even on a hdd or usb key

    ma & pa, average joe tend to have BD players over here . Very common. They have BD players because that's what they sell at the store often in bundles - but they don' t know that the player can actually play files from usb. It's sort of "pushed" onto consumers and the "sheep" buy what is fed to them

    ironically, when many dont even have a bluray player, some are now touting consumer 4k is just around the corner, and that is something i laugh off as a silly joke.
    3D was a joke or a fad, but I think 4k and eventually 8k are for real. GH4 is available next month. The next crop of phones will do 4k. When someone's phone or photo camera produces higher lattitude videos, higher resolution, higher bit depth, better color than today's "pro" or "prosumer" video cameras - now that's a joke!
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 14th Mar 2014 at 22:48.
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  27. Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post
    so if the tmpge and VRD mpeg2 files are progressive, why can they still be authored and burnt to dvd, because i see it written that pal dvd is meant to be interlaced to work on dvd, so im confused.
    True interlaced content must be encoded as interlaced. Progressive content can be encoded either as interlaced or as progressive if for PAL DVD. Most movies on PAL DVD (like mainstream Hollywood movies) are encoded as interlaced. Progressive content for PAL DVD doesn't have to be encoded as interlaced, but it usually is. Me, if I were to encode progressive content for PAL DVD I'd encode it as progressive.

    But for your 50p content, like pdr I think I'd reinterlace it for PAL DVD and encode as interlaced.
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    tech saavy people tend to want digital files, even on a hdd or usb key

    ma & pa, average joe tend to have BD players over here . Very common. They have BD players because that's what they sell at the store often in bundles - but they don' t know that the player can actually play files from usb. It's sort of "pushed" onto consumers and the "sheep" buy what is fed to them
    wow, in usa most have a bluray player, i thought most still had dvd players like here in australia.

    when people buy a new HD tv here, they are told the tv has a usb port, but they dont tell them the tv has a built in media player, most of them will try and flog the buyer a bluray player as well, and most dont get one because they still use their dvd player.

    anyway, i am always spruking to people the joys of having a built in player in the tv, but one thing to be careful of is the quality of the media player will depend entirely on the quality of the tv, and many cheaper brands have very crappy media plyers inside them, that your better to buy a stand alone hdd player or a bluray player that has the usb port.

    cheers
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    But for your 50p content, like pdr I think I'd reinterlace it for PAL DVD and encode as interlaced.
    hi, so after seeing my source video, you recommend i convert to mpeg2 using interlaced as PDR suggested.

    in that source file, thats is how 90% of my videos are shot, i know the limits of the AF and OIS systems in my cameras, and thats why i shoot this type of video in 1080/50p mode as opposed to 1080/25p.

    as you could see i dont do fast panning, and i use rigs to mount my cameras on to avoid shaking while walking with the camera, so my videos are generally very nice to watch, and most of my video shoots are weddings, and i shoot a lot of travel related videos, as you saw in my sample source file.

    cheers
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  30. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2007
    Location: Canada
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by glenpinn View Post
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    tech saavy people tend to want digital files, even on a hdd or usb key

    ma & pa, average joe tend to have BD players over here . Very common. They have BD players because that's what they sell at the store often in bundles - but they don' t know that the player can actually play files from usb. It's sort of "pushed" onto consumers and the "sheep" buy what is fed to them
    wow, in usa most have a bluray player, i thought most still had dvd players like here in australia.
    No, I think the official statistic are DVD players still outnumber BD players by a LOT, especially in rural areas. In metropolitan areas, the "big box" stores tend to sell many BD players. The prices have come down exponentially over the last few years. "Cheap" BD players are about $40-60 - not much more than DVD players

    But you said you knew nobody that had a BD player. Even just in my neighborhood, I would say maybe 5 of 10 have BD players. But 10/10 probably have DVD players. Personally I hate optical discs
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