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  1. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2014
    Location: United States
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    For about 1 month I have been working with various capture devices (1980s VHS tapes to hard drive) and trial software.
    The 3 devices are listed in the title.

    Has anyone used the MX02 to capture VHS tapes?

    My first concern is I'm confused as to why I'm getting zig zag edges on the players (also seated fans and still background images) such as in a basketball game (most obvious when panning) when I capture with the MX02 but NOT with the other 2 devices. This is when I view the captured video...not during the preview.


    I'm not trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear but the visual quality is much better with the devices that don't produce the ZZ. Now I have not captured a still image and zoomed in to see if there is some minor ZZ with the other 2 devices but it is VERY obvious on the MX02 playback file.

    I am basically a newbie with this process but have been reading messages on forums and Internet sites on the subject of VHS capture for several months and I don't yet know or always understand the proper technical terminology.

    I believe the zig zag is a problem with analog VHS interlace artifacts?
    I'm viewing the captured video on my Toshiba 50" flatscreen and one website talks about the ZZ as a visual problem on a flatscreen HD monitor but won't show up on a SD CRT TV...I'm hoping a friend has one I can borrow tomorrow.
    This may be true but I just don't see the ZZ when captured with the other 2 devices.
    As far as the color, overall quality, some ghost images or bleeding, etc this is basically the same visually between all 3 captured videos...it's just the ZZ that has me confused.

    I have various high end VCRs I can use. I use the S-video interface.
    I have compared the 3 capture devices using the same place on the same tape with the same VCR.

    Hopefully someone will be able to give me some basic suggestions, and I'm aware of post editing software to correct things but for right now I want to capture the video first and then go from there. If this is absolutely the wrong approach I'm willing to discuss that in another post.


    I'll try to be more brief and to the point in future posts and will stop here for now.
    Thanks
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  2. Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    My first concern is I'm confused as to why I'm getting zig zag edges on the players (also seated fans and still background images) such as in a basketball game (most obvious when panning) when I capture with the [B]MX02
    MJPEG? Change the Swap Fields option in the MJPEG decoder. For example:

    http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/300970-Blackmagic-Intensity-Pro-Xbox-360-to-PC-capt...=1#post1922208

    If that's not it, upload a small sample. Maybe you need a line time base corrector (S-VHS deck).
    Last edited by jagabo; 12th Mar 2014 at 23:52.
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  3. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2014
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    Hello jagabo,

    I followed your link and those are the jagged edges I'm seeing in my videos captured with the MX02.
    I already had Virtualdub downloaded but had not experimented with it much and never had tried it with the MX02.

    Under the "Video" dropdown I found "Swap Fields" with Virtualdub and checked it...and found that I could toggle that option on the go during capture.
    When it is checked the video becomes more blurry or excessively smoothed out and the zigzag is stretched out more.
    When I uncheck it the ZZ looks the way I first described it when using the Matrox utility.

    I then hooked up the ADVC110 firewire device and used Virtualdub. The video was herky jerky and I noticed continual dropped frames.
    Even though the playback was jerky because of the dropped frames it still did NOT have the ZZ problem.

    When I used ArcSoft Showbiz and TMPGenc software I had no problems or dropped frames with the ADVC110 nor the ZZ.

    So now I have new variations with the capture devices using Virtualdub. I still would like to stay with the MX02 device since I did purchase that one...the other 2 were borrowed and have to return now.

    Here are some more specs:
    Matrox utility uses 2 codecs (MPEG-2 I-frame or 8 bit uncompressed).
    I have these VCRs (JVC S9600U, Sony SVO-5800, JVC HR-S9911U, Panasonic 7750) and all have built in TBC.
    I also purchased a TVone 1T-TBC-GL which also has 5 adjustments for color, brightness, sharp, etc.

    ZZ trouble shooting with Virtualdub:
    As stated I used the "Swap fields" option in Virtualdub - made it worse.
    I went directly from the VCR to MX02 and turned on/off the built in TBC - no affect on the ZZ but I had more warping on the bottom of the video when TBC off.
    Using the TVone inline I turned on/off the VCR built in TBC - same results with ZZ.

    So at this point, for whatever reason, it appears the MX02 mini and its built in firmware causes or does not filter the ZZ problem.
    I can not recreate the problem using various software with the ADVC or the Hauppauge.

    I had been studying these particular websites to figure things out on my own and not become such a nuisance here.
    http://www.100fps.com
    http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/capture-understand-sources.htm
    http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/introduction-restore-video.htm


    I have the AVID Media Composer (trial version) but I haven't gotten very far with it.
    I can preview the video but just haven't had time to figure out all of the complexities/options that can be executed using this software.


    I'm really trying to just stay with a basic capture program.
    Capture in uncompressed AVI.
    Tweak the video images some with the TVone prior to capture.
    Hopefully without the ZZ.
    Once I've captured the videos I hope to find more time to mess around with editing and tweaking.

    One tech person said I should forget the uncompressed AVI or whatever variations of compression that entails with different codecs.
    I read some about capturing in Lossless but that seemed to me a waste of time with huge files and really no gain during the editing process since I'm working with poor analog VHS signal.

    The Hauppauge captured in TS format.
    The ADVC110 captured in a more compressed AVI...at least that was my conclusion...maybe other software using different codecs can change these options.

    Should I reconsider the uncompressed AVI option and go back to the Hauppauge TS compression or the ADVC compression?
    At least I won't have the ZZ problem which is really the worst aspect in my limited opinion.

    I was really pretty happy with the results I was getting using the Hauppauge and ADVC and should have just stayed with one of them.
    Not until I captured a basketball game with the MX02 and noticed the ZZ was I disappointed.

    Again - sorry for an even longer post.
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  4. Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    Under the "Video" dropdown I found "Swap Fields" with Virtualdub and checked it...and found that I could toggle that option on the go during capture.
    When it is checked the video becomes more blurry or excessively smoothed out and the zigzag is stretched out more.
    You're going to have to upload a short sample. 5 or 10 seconds with a mix if still and moving shots is enough. Use the "Upload Files/Manage Attachments" button below most of the edit boxes here, select the file, upload.

    Regarding many dropped frames in VirtualDub -- turn off audio playback while capturing. You can capture audio, just don't allow VirtualDub to play it (Audio -> Enable Audio Playback). If that doesn't help go to Capture -> Timing and fiddle with the resync options.

    But don't capture from the ADVC110 with VirtualDub use a simple, near foolproof, program like WinDV or DVIO.

    Uncompressed or losslessly compressed is best of you plan on filtering your VHS. Each lossy encoding (DV from the ADVC110 for example) loses information.
    Last edited by jagabo; 13th Mar 2014 at 20:16.
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  5. Member
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    I've tried twice to upload 2 files and then post the message but each time after the upload is finished and then I try to post the message I get a password prompt and have to start over again.
    Hopefully the uploads are somewhere on the server to find.


    1.avi was captured by VirtualDub on the MX02.
    AVDC.avi was captured by VirtualDub on the ADVC110 firewire unit.


    While waiting for the uploads I tried your "audio playback" suggestion...Worked like a Charm! Absolutely no dropped frames.
    I'll make sure to tell the owner of this device...just in case they should try VirtualDub.

    I'll see if WinDV works with MX02 and also try DVIO.


    When you say Uncompressed...I get confused from reading all about "containers" such as AVI and then comes the compression codecs (I'm not asking for an explanation of these terms just want to know the best "container" and what codec provides the least amount of compression for VHS quality that will work well with post editing or "filtering" as you described it I think.
    Would Matrox 8-bit uncompressed be one option?
    I found this information on another forum site.
    The Matrox unit easily captures in uncompressed AVI, for an 8-bit RGB capture. Matrox's 4:4:4 is the way to go if you are trying to color grade incorrect exposures.
    Another site stated that some older codecs will create "heavily compressed" AVI files.


    What software/hardware (the brand or company name) captures losslessly compressed?
    I searched this forum for lossless but didn't find much on the subject dealing with VHS capture.

    Thanks again.
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  6. Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    I've tried twice to upload 2 files and then post the message but each time after the upload is finished and then I try to post the message I get a password prompt and have to start over again.
    Hopefully the uploads are somewhere on the server to find.
    No sign of the files. It sounds like the browser session timed out before the upload finished. Try smaller files?

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    When you say Uncompressed...I get confused from reading all about "containers" such as AVI and then comes the compression codecs (I'm not asking for an explanation of these terms just want to know the best "container" and what codec provides the least amount of compression for VHS quality that will work well with post editing or "filtering" as you described it I think.
    Containers are logical "boxes" -- different ways of organizing the audio and video data and information about them into a file. Codecs are the different compression schemes that are used to reduce the size of the audio and video data within those containers.

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    Would Matrox 8-bit uncompressed be one option?
    It sounds like it. But I don't know exactly what that is.

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    I found this information on another forum site.
    The Matrox unit easily captures in uncompressed AVI, for an 8-bit RGB capture. Matrox's 4:4:4 is the way to go if you are trying to color grade incorrect exposures.
    Another site stated that some older codecs will create "heavily compressed" AVI files.
    All video capture devices capture in YUV. Devices that capture uncompressed usually output YUV 4:2:2 (YUY2, UYVY, etc.) because that is closest to the analog signal. Converting to RGB loses precision and may clip darks and brights, and is done in software -- so it should be avoided during capture. Lossless compression is performed by the capture software and reduces the file size to about 1/2 to 1/3 the uncompressed file, without any loss of quality. Codecs include Huffyuv, Lagarith, UT video codec, ffmpeg lossless, etc.

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    What software/hardware (the brand or company name) captures losslessly compressed?
    There used to be lots of them but there aren't so many anymore. I suspect your Matrox MX02 can capture uncompressed YUV 4:2:2. And since you can now use VirtualDub you can use that to apply lossless compression and save in an AVI file. The issue is whether or not the other software you are using can deal with that. You just need to figure out what's causing the combing problem you're seeing.
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  7. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2014
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    Hi again,

    First I want to state that I really appreciate your patience with this newbie's posts. I have been reading many other forums about VHS capture and it seems like they all have 'some' individuals who get snarky with newbies - even downright rude and degrading.
    I'm sure there have been a few chuckles with some of my statements...that's OK...just don't need to be told I'm "stupid," in a thread on any website - I already know how I presently lack understanding of this particular technology.
    But I wonder how many are able to use the Arc View GIS 10 program like I do? We all need to crawl before we can walk before we can run.


    Note: I removed the links to the upload files March 16, 2014.


    Thanks again
    Dave
    Last edited by O-Manning; 16th Mar 2014 at 10:31.
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  8. I got your videos.

    The ADVC capture is normal interlaced 720x480 DV AVI. If you open it in VirtualDub you'll see interlace comb artifacts wherever there is motion. This is because each frame of interlaced video contains two separate half pictures: one in all the even numbered scan lines, one in all the odd numbered scan lines. You usually don't see the comb artifacts in a media player because players automatically deinterlace DV on-the-fly.

    1.avi, the video you captured with the MX02, is also interlaced video. Since it is saved as uncompressed RGBA there's no way for the AVI file to flag the video as interlaced. So players will assume it's progressive video and display both fields at the same time. Further, it has been improperly resized vertically. That has caused the two fields to become co-mingled so they can no longer be cleanly separated for display. Check your capture setting and make sure you are not cropping and resizing the frame -- that is the likely cause of the problems. You should be capturing as YUY2 or other YUV 4:2:2 sub-sampling, not RGBA. Also capture at the full 720x480 frame size, not 640x480.
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  9. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2014
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    Search Comp PM
    I checked the VirtualDub settings more closely now...I have been experimenting with so many different software/capture programs, along with the 3 different devices that I was going in circles.

    I was also incorrectly assuming that all options the software has set after the install were more or less default.
    The VirtualDub default compression setting was Uncompressed RBG/YCbCr, and the video frame size was on 640x480 as you noted about the MX02 capture file you looked at.
    I did change both settings - the frame size is now 720x480.
    I experimented with the Matrox Uncompressed SD option. I also downloaded the Lagarith codec you mentioned in a previous post. Lagarith shows up in VirtualDub so I also used it.
    Unfortunately the "combing" still shows up when I used these different codecs.


    To add to the saga, I still have not been able to get the Avid Media Composer trial version to get past the "no source tape found" message.
    I can watch the preview of the VHS video feed and click on "start capture" but so far nothing happens. The video/audio source dropdown shows Matrox and I have them both listed.
    Both the Avid and Matrox websites boast of working with each other so I know they should be compatible.
    I also noticed on Matrox's site that Adobe Premier Pro is compatible so I downloaded that trial program. I haven't had time to go through all of the settings and options yet but when I click on "capture" it lists "capture device offline."

    I'm not asking your for help - just stating that one thing after another comes up with the Matrox system.

    I'm almost wondering if some of my problems with the MX02 could be it is defective in some manner.
    I had no problems with the other software and 2 capture devices I worked with...other than the normal learning curve problems.

    Before you suggest I go to the Matrox forum to ask for help - I did post a question sometime ago at the very start when I was having problems with sound passing through. After several of my "newbie" posts there I received a "have you read the user guide at all?" question by one of the support people.

    So eventually I probably ask them about the "combing" zig zag problem I'm having, but first I'm going to work more with the software I have to see if something finally "clicks" and I'll see what I'm doing wrong.

    I may upload one more file sometime to have you analyze it but for now I don't want to "overstay" my welcome here either.


    One last thing - I'm thinking I should be able to edit my posts after they are submitted - I'd like to eventually remove the link to my website download.
    So if you can steer me to the place I do this I'd appreciate it. It is probably right in front of me but don't see it.

    Thanks again
    Dave
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  10. Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    Unfortunately the "combing" still shows up when I used these different codecs.
    The combing is supposed to show up -- the source is interlaced. Interlaced is the native state of NTSC video. Interlaced video shows comb artifacts when viewed on a computer without deinterlacing. Whether you should deinterlace or not depends on what you plan to do with the video next.

    AVI doesn't really have an interlace flag. But most players know that DV is interlaced and will deinterlace it on-the-fly. That's why you don't see combing when you play a DV AVI file. If you open your DV AVI files in VirtualDub you'll see comb artifacts, just like your uncompressed cap -- except without the errors introduced by resizing in the uncompressed cap.

    I don't know anything about the Avid software so I can't help you with that. If you can see the video in the preview window you should be able to capture it. Unless it's Macrovision protected.

    You can edit your posts by pressing the Edit button at the bottom right of your post.
    Last edited by jagabo; 16th Mar 2014 at 06:46.
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  11. Member
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    Hi again,

    I think I understand what you are saying about seeing the combing in VirtualDub or other editor...that would make sense...

    The thing I'm confused about is why I don't see it (at least it isn't apparent visually to the eye during playback) when I play an AVI captured through the Hauppauge or ADVC110 with Windows's Media player, but it is so very obvious on Media player playback after being captured through the Matrox MX02 mini.

    That is where I'm at right now.


    Below is more background, and I don't want to waste more of anyone's time but just in case they wonder how I got to where I am now:
    I'm only trying to preserve old VHS tapes I made of our area history which I recorded myself with, first the separate RCA video cameras and the 110 RCA VCRs with 200 feet extension cords...later on I also purchased the portable RCA VCRs and then finally the RCA camcorder.
    I even sent my 2 RCA video cameras (I forget the model # right now) to a company in Florida called SciTech and had them wire the cameras to be GenLocked to work with their synchronizing unit. This was way back in 1983 I believe.

    I have no desire and am not interested in trying to copy old VHS movies I purchased. I assume they will be available on whatever new medium that comes out in the future.
    So Macrovision is not the problem I'm having in Avid or why Adobe Premier pro won't even communicate with MX02. I'll go back to Matrox's website again but I'm sure they list Premier as one of the compatible software.

    As I mentioned I had borrowed the Hauppauge and ADVC110 and then returned them once I had purchased the MATROX - that I thought was going to work great - until I transferred a basketball game with lots of side to side panning and then noticed the dramatic difference during playback.
    I may end up buying my own ADVC110 and/or Hauppauge. It may seem like a waste of money and time but besides the fact that I like to work with technology, I really need to get my community historical tapes transferred to hard drive...one way or another.
    We taped/interviewed nearly 100 senior citizens who are ALL now deceased...they were 80 to 100 thirty years ago, so this is precious local history!!!

    I know some experienced tech people will say just send these tapes to a "professional" company to get the job done. It would probably save me a lot of money, time, headaches (especially bothering people on support forums) and the professionals would PROBABLY have a lot better equipment, software and also expertise BUT I have dealt with a few so-called professional companies before and they are not all "created equal."

    IF I can get this figured out I think I will be better off in the long run.
    If I just send to a professional company without having any experience like I'm getting now I would not know if I was getting a good deal or not.

    Thanks again for your continued help and information.
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  12. Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    The thing I'm confused about is why I don't see it (at least it isn't apparent visually to the eye during playback) when I play an AVI captured through the Hauppauge or ADVC110 with Windows's Media player, but it is so very obvious on Media player playback after being captured through the Matrox MX02 mini.
    Because WMP know DV AVI is interlaced even though the AVI container has no way of signaling it. So WMP deinterlaces while playing DV AVI. But it doesn't know whether uncompressed RGB or Lagarith compressed AVI is interlaced or not. So it plays them as if they are progressive.

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    I have no desire and am not interested in trying to copy old VHS movies I purchased. I assume they will be available on whatever new medium that comes out in the future.
    So Macrovision is not the problem I'm having in Avid
    You can't be 100 percent sure about that. It's quite common for the Macrovision detection circuitry/software of capture devices to be over sensitive. It often kicks in on tapes that are obviously not protected by Macrovision. As I said earlier, I don't know anything about the Avid software. I don't know what it does when it encounters Macrovision (real or false) -- whether it just doesn't capture, gives an obvious error message, or ignores it. You might try some other analog sources if you have any (a DVD player with composite or s-video out playing an unencrypted DVD, for example).

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    As I mentioned I had borrowed the Hauppauge and ADVC110 and then returned them once I had purchased the MATROX - that I thought was going to work great - until I transferred a basketball game with lots of side to side panning and then noticed the dramatic difference during playback.
    As noted, you are capturing interlaced video so you should have comb artifacts until the video is deinterlaced. That can happen at the TV, in a DVD player, in a software media player, with software filtering, even while capturing (not recommended because it will be done poorly). Deinterlacing potentially will decrease the spacial and/or temporal resolution by half. So whether you want to deinterlace the video in software depends on what you plan to do with the video. DVD (and TV) fully supports interlaced video. So you can leave the video interlaced, encode it interlaced, and the DVD player or TV will deinterlace when you play the DVD. Just like WMP does with your DV AVI. And it will look much like watching the VHS tape directly on the TV. If you're making videos to upload to Youtube you want to deinterlace first because Youtube doesn't deal with interlaced video well -- it will give you poor results if you upload interlaced files.

    You're real problem with the MX02 is the co-mingled fields in the capture. All you need to do is get that straightened out. I recommend you use the Bob Doubler filter for checking your videos after capturing. That's a crude deinterlace method but it's close to what you would see on a CRT TV.
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  13. Member
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    Hi again,

    I had never thought of a false positive with the Macrovision, since I'm working only with standard video tapes recorded on my VCRs from the video camera.
    I'll look into that a little more...but I'm still thinking I just haven't set up something right with the Avid/Premier software or those programs actually aren't compatible with the MX02. I'll look into this more to resolve at least this aspect.


    The "co-mingled" fields situation you mentioned is something I'll try to find more information about and read up on it, and then make a few more test runs.
    Then I'll contact the MATROX people to see if they can help or tell me what I'm doing wrong.

    I will also experiment with Smart Bob Doubler filter.
    I found the site - http://neuron2.net/bob.html and will read up on this process.


    I just found the VirtualDub site and see the most recent version is 1.8.
    http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=187
    I checked the version I have and it is 1.10.4 but don't remember where I downloaded it from - it must have been a mirror site.

    I also noticed on the VirtualDub site under "current version" it lists v1.10.4 (stable).
    I'm assuming the developer no longer is updating this program or supports it anymore since he stated he created the program in college.

    Then I found this site that has 1.9.9
    http://www.oldversion.com/windows/virtualdub-1-6-2

    So which version are you using?
    Generally the most recent version is best since new features are added and also bugs fixed.


    I fully understand why most experts suggest that the "common Joe" just takes their tapes to a professional company but even though it gets very frustrating not knowing which way to go, with your help and others I find this all VERY intriguing.

    Thanks again.
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  14. Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    The "co-mingled" fields situation you mentioned is something I'll try to find more information about and read up on it, and then make a few more test runs.
    Then I'll contact the MATROX people to see if they can help or tell me what I'm doing wrong.
    I don't know if Matrox knows anything about VirtualDub. Try capturing at 720x480 YUY2 with no filtering. Lagarith may be a bit slow for video capture but that wouldn't be the cause of the co-mingled fields. I also seem to recall that some old Matrox cards like 720x486*. So try that too.

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    I will also experiment with Smart Bob Doubler filter.
    I found the site - http://neuron2.net/bob.html and will read up on this process.
    For purposes of a quick check to see if the fields are clean you don't want to use Smart Deinterlace. Use the simple Bob Doubler. It's foolproof at what it does. For permanent deinterlacing, should it be necessary, I would use QTGMC() in AviSynth. But that can wait for another day.

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    I just found the VirtualDub site and see the most recent version is 1.8.
    http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=187
    I checked the version I have and it is 1.10.4 but don't remember where I downloaded it from - it must have been a mirror site.

    I also noticed on the VirtualDub site under "current version" it lists v1.10.4 (stable).
    I'm assuming the developer no longer is updating this program or supports it anymore since he stated he created the program in college.

    Then I found this site that has 1.9.9
    http://www.oldversion.com/windows/virtualdub-1-6-2

    So which version are you using?
    I'm using 1.10.4 like you. The developer is still updating the program. Every few months there's a new beta. Every now and then a stable release. You should stick with the stable releases. Betas are really for people testing new features (which may have bugs or cause bugs with other parts of the program).


    * Analog NTSC video has 485 active scan lines. The top scanline is only the second half of the line, the bottom is only the first half, and there are 484 in between. So devices that capture all 485 lines fill in the missing half lines to make 486 lines.
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    Well I'm glad I posted the link to "Smart Bob filter" link earlier so you commented about not using it for my particular situation.

    This is the newbie goof by me again...I didn't pay attention to the exact wording you wrote and just assumed Smart Bob & Bob Doubler were the same filter until reading some more links I found on Google and ran into this one.
    http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/325830-Captured-AVI-file-too-large/page2

    After reading through the link just above I'm guessing I should use the Bob (TFF).

    I found it under the "Options" drop down in VirtualDub...I just have not gotten this far into the analytical features of this program but will do so in the next few days.

    Thanks again.
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  16. For checking your video you want a fast simple bob. You're not interested in image quality at this point, just separating the two fields so you can verify they aren't corrupt. For high quality smart bob deinterlacing TempGaussMC_beta1mod() has been superseded by QTGMC(). You would use that on your final product (if you needed deinterlaced video).

    Here are crops from your ADVC and Matrox captures showing comb artifacts in each:

    Name:  ADVCi.png
Views: 298
Size:  37.7 KB Name:  MATi.png
Views: 301
Size:  37.3 KB

    At first glance they look similar but after deinterlacing with Bob Doubler to see the two separate half images (fields) from each frame (animated back and forth here):

    Name:  ADVC.gif
Views: 299
Size:  100.8 KB Name:  MAT.gif
Views: 297
Size:  94.8 KB

    The line on the basketball court is moving to the left in each shot. In the ADVC capture you can see the line cleanly move to the left. But in the Matrox capture the line is no longer separate in each field. That is the problem you need to fix with a proper capture (it can't be fixed later). If you look closely at the interlaced crops you'll see that the ADVC image shows a very clear pattern of comb artifacts alternating on every other scan line. In the Matrox image the comb artifacts start out alternating between scan lines but about 1/3 of the way down they are blurred together. Further down they are separate again but they have switched fields. Then they blur together again and finally, at the bottom of the frame, they have separated again and the line matches the line at the top of the frame.
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    You are totally amazing yet I'm sure what you did with the tests on my videos is just like breathing air to you.
    I'm just amazed you have stuck with me this far! Really appreciated.


    In VirtualDub I tried to custom set the Video to 720x486 using YUY2 as you suggested for one test. The only option listed for specifically YUY2 YUV 4:2:2 Interleaved. Then an error message came up and said "capture device does not support this format"

    Next I tried the Matrox Uncompressed SD and the configure options listed are the Bit depth (I used 8) and the scan mode (I used interlaced) rather than progressive. I couldn't find a YUY2 option listed with this codec.

    The other option I tried was Lagarith Lossless codec. Under configure I chose YUY2.
    I'm still seeing the combing or co-mingled fields with both Matrox and Lagarith codecs.

    One thing I noticed with the lossless video in VirtualDub was the playback was herky jerky (both sound & video) during the Bob filter process. That file plays back fine in WMP - other than the combing.
    I don't want to bring in another possible problem and my inexperience but the Lagarith Lossless codec was on option I was thinking of using if I ever get the combing thing resolved. Maybe this isn't something to worry about in this test mode with "Bob."


    I have been trying to figure out how you zoomed in or cropped the center court line samples you made using VirtualDub. I understand the animated gif you made.
    I have opened capture files from both devices and used the Bob filter. The right side pane looks fine with the ADVC and Bob filter, but I can still see the combing when using the Bob filter with the MATROX...unless I'm imagining things.
    I used the "Seek" button to move the video forward and backwards.


    I think it's time to contact the MATROX people (leaving you and this forum out of the conversation) to see if they are familiar with this problem and hope they don't ask me again if I have taken the time to "read the User's Guide."

    I'll see if they want me to send them a sample and then explain I'm seeing the combing even with WMP and that I have used VirtualDub and see this co-mingling problem using the simple Bob filter.

    Any other suggestions on how to exactly explain the situation in more technical terms so they figure I am actually having a problem and it's not just my inexperience and lack of reading the user's guide?

    As usual thanks again.
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  18. Again, comb artifacts are expected. That is the normal state of interlaced video when digitized. The issue you need to resolve is the mingling of the fields -- caused by a vertical resize somewhere in the capture chain.

    "YUY2 YUV 4:2:2 Interleaved" is what you want. If the MX02 doesn't support 720x486 use 720x480. If it doesn't support YUY2 look for another YUV 4:2:2 interleaved option. UYVY is a common variation. If the MX02 doesn't support any YUV options you'll have to use one of the RGB options. Set Lagarith to the same mode as the capture (eg, capture YUY2, Lagarith YUY2).

    VirtualDub isn't optimized as a media player so it doesn't mean much that it can't play Lagarith encoded video with Bob Doubler smoothly. What matters is that there are no dropped or inserted (duplicate) frames while capturing. VirtualDub reportes this while capturing (not always 100 percent accurate) or you can verify it by stepping through the video frame by frame after capture.

    Lagarith is one of the slower lossless codecs. If you want more speed try UT Video Codec instead.

    You can step one frame (or field if Bobbing) forward with the right arrow in VirtualDub, one frame/field backward with the left arrow.

    To produce those crops I applied the Null Transform filter in VirtualDub, then applied Cropping (on the main filter dialog). You can add Cropping to any filter.

    Click image for larger version

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    Null Transform is a "do nothing" filter, so if you add Cropping to it all you get is cropping. If you add Cropping to another filter the cropping happens before the filter is applied. So I could have added Cropping to Bob Doubler instead of using Null Transform. But I wanted to be able to switch the two filters off/on on demand (you can do that by un-checking the filter in the list of the filters dialog). You don't need top crop like that to check your video. I did it to keep the image sizes down and to show just one particular area of interest.
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  19. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2014
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    I first need to make sure I understand what Bob Doubler does in VirtualDub.

    If I understand correctly while using VirtualDub that when I choose Bob TFF in the preview field mode option and then when I use the Preview filtered function with one of my interlaced DV AVI files that I should see the combing on the left BUT the right side pane should be a crude de-interlaced view...similar to what WMP shows when it automatically de-interlaces my DV AVI file during playback?

    When I play back a video file I created using the ADVC & Hauppauge with the Bob doubler I see the combing on the left but very little if any combing on the right side preview. So I assume Bob is able to de-interlace those AVI files.
    BUT when I play back an AVI file created from the MXO2 I see the combing/co-mingling on the left and I see the co-mingling problem and I assume also the combing on the right side - because Bob Tff can't correct a situation like this.

    If I'm completely wrong about what I think Bob doubler does then I'm really lost.


    I created 2 new files from the MX02 using the Sony Pro S-VHS machine.
    One file I used the Lagarith Lossless codec and chose the YUY2 option under configure.

    The other file I used the UT Video codec you mentioned. It has 4 different codec options - I used the YUV 420 BT.601 option which is first in the list.


    Note March 18: I edited this post slightly by removing the link to my 2 files.

    I'm going to assume you will see the same co-mingled fields in both AVI files.

    As you stated this is occurring during the capture process using the MX02 and I need to get this resolved because it can not be filtered out or corrected later.
    I have no clue as to where/what is causing this problem other than I only run into it with the MX02.

    So I believe my next step is to contact the MX02 tech support and see if they can resolve this issue.
    I'm very glad, though, that you have given me some lessons and explained the problem so at least I won't have to tell them I see Ziz Zag in my videos.
    I really appreciate all of your help, "going beyond the call of duty," but I believe the responsibility has to fall on MATROX now.

    Once you let me know if you are seeing the same co-mingling problem with these 2 new files I'll then contact the MATROX folks and then hopefully report back here what the solution is.

    Many thanks again.
    Last edited by O-Manning; 18th Mar 2014 at 21:09.
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  20. Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    If I understand correctly while using VirtualDub that when I choose Bob TFF in the preview field mode option and then when I use the Preview filtered function with one of my interlaced DV AVI files that I should see the combing on the left BUT the right side pane should be a crude de-interlaced view...similar to what WMP shows when it automatically de-interlaces my DV AVI file during playback?
    Yes. WMP may perform a higher quality deinterlacing depending on what software you have installed.

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    When I play back a video file I created using the ADVC & Hauppauge with the Bob doubler I see the combing on the left but very little if any combing on the right side preview. So I assume Bob is able to de-interlace those AVI files.
    Yes.

    Just as a side note: VirtualDub can reverse the panes (View -> Swap Input/Output Panes) so the filtered view isn't necessarily on the right.

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    BUT when I play back an AVI file created from the MXO2 I see the combing/co-mingling on the left and I see the co-mingling problem and I assume also the combing on the right side - because Bob Tff can't correct a situation like this.
    Yes.

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    I created 2 new files from the MX02 using the Sony Pro S-VHS machine.
    One file I used the Lagarith Lossless codec and chose the YUY2 option under configure.

    The other file I used the UT Video codec you mentioned. It has 4 different codec options - I used the YUV 420 BT.601 option which is first in the list.

    <links removed>

    I'm going to assume you will see the same co-mingled fields in both AVI files.
    Yes, both videos show the same problem.

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    As you stated this is occurring during the capture process using the MX02 and I need to get this resolved because it can not be filtered out or corrected later.
    I have no clue as to where/what is causing this problem other than I only run into it with the MX02.

    So I believe my next step is to contact the MX02 tech support and see if they can resolve this issue.
    I guess so. You could also try some of the other free video capture programs: AVI_IO, VirtualVCR, VLC.

    Let me know what happens with Matrox.
    Last edited by jagabo; 18th Mar 2014 at 22:22.
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  21. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2014
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    OK - Great and thanks for confirming things and clarifying what I thought I understood.

    I'll try those other programs first before contacting MATROX.

    I'm sure you'll think I'm a glutton for punishment but I'm looking at another capture device I may try before I contact the MATROX folks.

    I want to be able to say with certainty that the MX02 device I have is either not functioning properly or they need to patch the firmware or update their software, or tell me what I'm doing wrong (whatever) to correct this situation.



    I'll stop pestering you now and give you a rest for a while.

    But if you don't mind I may have a few other questions about video transfers in the future.
    May not be until spring work is over (I'm a farmer).

    Take care
    Dave

    PS: if you don't mind please remove the links to my 2 files in your post...I'll remove my links...since I'll delete these files tonight and someone who may want to look at them in the future will wonder where they are.
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  22. I removed the links. Let me know if I missed any. Good luck with Matrox! Do you want to buy my old APVE? LOL.
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  23. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2014
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    Hi again,

    I'm not getting very far with the Matrox tech people.
    I transferred 2 AVI files to their site, one from MX02 and another from a Sony capture device I borrowed.

    I thought I explained the co-mingling situation to them fairly well, and that I only see it with their capture device.

    They did not say they even looked at the files but instructed me to update my windows, update their Matrox utility to the newest version (which I did but made no difference with the co-mingling).
    Also I should NOT use windows media player or certain versions of Adobe Premiere for playback viewing.
    Then get back to them if I have any questions.


    I hate to bother you again but I wanted to see if you would check a video capture I made from the Sony device to make sure it doesn't have the co-mingling problem that I'm having with the MXO2...I don't see it in WMP but just want to make sure this Sony video doesn't have the same problem --- that I may have some other problem with a cable or my computer system.
    (Removed link to AVI file April 9)
    This way I should be able to tell the MATROX folks that after using all of these other devices I worked with, that their MXO2 is the only one that has this problem...and that is isn't a problem with WMP or some update I don't have with windows.


    I realize the basketball games I want to transfer will never be very good quality but I sure don't want to add that co-mingling distortion and make them worse.

    One thing I have been amazed with is that they really don't look too bad on my Toshiba 60 inch flatscreen.
    On my various small computer flatscreen monitors the videos look more washed out and don't have the color depth/quality as the Toshiba.
    I'll be happy with the results if I can just get this co-mingling (or whatever) problem figured out.

    Thanks again
    Last edited by O-Manning; 9th Apr 2014 at 11:25.
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  24. Sony.avi is normal, interlaced NTSC DV. There is no comingling of the fields in either the luma or chroma channels.

    One suggestion: See if you can turn off the sharpening filter on the SVHS deck. You have pretty severe over-sharpening halos. I know some JVC SVHS decks don't have independent controls for the TBC and sharpening filter. You either use both or you use neither. If you're forced to use one of those decks you just have to decide which is the lesser evil for a particular tap -- horizontal jitter from time base errors or over-sharpening halos.

    Unless calibrated, TVs tend to pump up contrast and saturation because that's what sells in the showroom. If you did the same on your computer monitor you'd get about the same picture with your video -- but everything else would look like crap.
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  25. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2014
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    Hi again,

    Thanks for checking things out with the Sony capture, and also the "heads up on settings" for the various components.

    Yes, the Sony SVO-5800 VCR has Video, Setup, Chroma, and hue, adjusters and also a bypass switch; plus a sync phase, sc phase, and y/c delay adjustments.

    I also have purchased a new TV-One 1T-TBC-GL time base corrector that has sharpness, hue, color, brightness, contrast adjustments.

    I purchased this based on several weeks of reading various web forums and Internet information about not all TBCs built into VCRs are created equal and that I should get an inline TBC. Here again I don't understand all of the "ins and outs" of this aspect but after finding multiple sources of information on this subject that is what led me in this direction (right or wrong). I couldn't find anyone to contact who has directly worked with old VHS tapes - at least not until I found this forum.

    I have several various brands of pro-sumer VCRs and all have some type of TBC and adjustments.
    Here again I haven't had time to play with all of those settings but I have used each VCR to, first make sure they worked OK and weren't obviously defective (because I had purchased them used recently), but to also observe how they tracked various tapes during playback - not even worrying about the capture aspect yet.

    The SVO-5800 VCR I have been using seems to track the tapes the best and is the one I used to make the capture with the Sony DVMC-DA2 device. The 5800 shows very little or none of the bottom wavy distortion, and very little or nothing at the top or sides like some of the other VCRs show in varying degrees when viewing the tapes.


    I haven't gotten into using or adjusting the settings with any of these units.

    Just trying to get through this first step with the MATROX.

    Once I get this MATROX thing figured out or maybe return it and get my money back, and finally decide on which of the previous devices I have used and go with, then I'll start testing the various adjustments, setting, and combinations of units.


    ----------------------------

    Then if you don't ban me from this site : -)) for being such a pest I hope to submit a few more video samples and ask some more newbie questions.

    I'm really excited about working with all my old tapes and working with all of this technology (hopefully eventually mastering to some extent).
    I'm basically the only dedicated historian in our area and want to especially get those 80+ senior citizens I have on tape that were interviewed back in the late 1970s through the 80s transferred to hard drive. For those tapes, since the subject matter is close-up and not like in the distance with BB games, these video images that had controlled lighting really look good and faces are easily recognizable.

    My main problem is this is my hobby so I can't dedicate full-time to figure all of this out in a faster manner, so I really appreciate your help and this forum for providing information.
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  26. The TBCs found in SVHS decks are line TBCs. They fix horizontal sync by adjusting each scanline to make them all the same length and line up vertically (the spinning drum in a VHS deck varies in speed causing these problems). They don't do much for damaged tapes where vertical sync may be messed up. A full frame TBC, what you find in most standalone units, don't necessarily include a line TBC. The full frame TBC's job is to provide constant perfect horizontal and vertical sync regardless of the input source. Even if you unplug or turn off the video source they still provide a constant output signal. It may just send the last good frame over and over again, or revert to a black or blue screen, but the sync pulses will still be perfect. That's useful when using capture devices that may stop capturing or lose A/V sync on a loss of signal.

    Your latest sample is very good. The line TBC in the SVHS deck was working well. I wouldn't worry about the head switching noise at the bottom of the frame, or a little "flagging" at the top. You can always mask those later. You never saw those problems on old televisions because TVs overscanned the image (even most modern TVs overscan). About 5 percent of the picture on all four sides wasn't seen. The only real problem I see is the oversharpening halos. Those are difficult to remove in software so it's best to avoid them at the source. Other issues like brightness, contrast, and colors, as long as they aren't too far off, can be fixed later in software.
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  27. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2014
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    Hi again,

    Sorry to keep involving you with my situation.

    The Matrox tech responded this way when I mentioned I was using Corel Video Studio Pro 6X or WMP to view the Matrox files.
    We have never had any users report any such 'co-mingling' issue with our files. Therefore it's possible that the main problem is that the file is being examined through a 3rd party media player. To view the files, please use Matrox A/V tools or a supported NLE application such as Adobe Premiere (CS6 or CC).


    I do have the trial version of Adobe Premiere which will run out in 4 days.
    I had never viewed a Matrox captured file in Adobe until now. I can't see the really obvious jagged edges but I also can't expand the view to full screen.

    For the Matrox A/V tools - it is a fairly basic capture program and the preview window is very small and it can't be expanded to full screen so it is hard to tell if the jagged edges are there.


    So could it be that unless I use their AV software or Adobe Premiere that I'll see this co-mingling situation which interrupts the de-interlace function of programs such as WMP & Corel?

    I just upgraded my Pinnacle Studio to 17...the jagged edges aren't as bad in their viewer but I can see them with this program too.
    With the trial version of Corel Video Studio Pro 6X the jagged edges are really obvious and are extreme during the pan left to right - more so that with WMP.

    I realize you were analyzing the Matrox files with Virtual dub and using Bob Doubler - could it be that this program is not be able to properly interpret the data file and cause the field problem as with the animated gif you made shows?
    Probably a stupid question but I don't know how else to approach this issue.


    Even if it is true that using the Matrox utility or the Adobe Premiere software are the only "compatible" programs to properly view the captures from the Matrox MX02 - I'm still baffled why I do not see this problem/situation while viewing all 3 other capture device (Hauppauge, ADVC, and Sony) videos in any of the programs I've used.

    Thanks
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  28. Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    I do have the trial version of Adobe Premiere which will run out in 4 days.
    I had never viewed a Matrox captured file in Adobe until now. I can't see the really obvious jagged edges but I also can't expand the view to full screen.
    Use a screen maginfier to view the Premiere's display. The magnifier that comes with windows will work. Start -> All Programs -> Accessories -> Ease of Access -> Magnifier.

    Remember, you're not looking for interlace comb artifacts, you're looking for co-mingling artifacts (as in post #16). I don't know about Premiere in particular, but many editors deinterlace for preview/display -- because they know people get freaked out when they see comb artifacts. If the display is deinterlaced you won't see comb artifacts but the co-mingling artifacts should still be visible when things are in motion, especially panning shots. And you don't need a magnifier to see them with with large objects like the near vertical lines on the basketball court.

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    So could it be that unless I use their AV software or Adobe Premiere that I'll see this co-mingling situation which interrupts the de-interlace function of programs such as WMP & Corel?
    No, the co-mingling is in the file. It will show up in any editor or player. It will also show up on TV (although at 60 fps it might be hard to notice).

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    I realize you were analyzing the Matrox files with Virtual dub and using Bob Doubler - could it be that this program is not be able to properly interpret the data file and cause the field problem as with the animated gif you made shows?
    No. VirtualDub is extremely reliable for AVI files.

    Originally Posted by O-Manning View Post
    Even if it is true that using the Matrox utility or the Adobe Premiere software are the only "compatible" programs to properly view the captures from the Matrox MX02 - I'm still baffled why I do not see this problem/situation while viewing all 3 other capture device (Hauppauge, ADVC, and Sony) videos in any of the programs I've used.
    Exactly.
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  29. Did you post any samples made with Matrox's capture program? It's hard to believe that Matrox could have such a huge flaw in their capture driver. But I don't see where else you might have introduced it.
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  30. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2014
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    The Matrox captured file I sent to the Matrox folks is inked below.
    I also sent them a file created with the Sony device.

    Their comment about both files was this.
    All files look normal and typical for captures made from old footage in SD format. The colors on the Matrox captured file look a bit deeper and better than the Sony file; otherwise the files look similar.


    Note: removed link to AVI file April 11

    I used the Bob Doubler and crop filter in VirtualDub like you explained in a previous post but I can't seem to recreate court line breaking up in a wavy manner when moving sideways with the above file.

    I also opened it in TPMGEnc Video mastering works 5. It has a zoom feature which functions similar to the crop filter in VirtualDub.
    Here again I could not recreate the court line splitting like you showed in the earlier post with another Matrox video I sent you.

    I don't know if it is worth your time to look, once again, at another Matrox capture.
    Their tech person requested that I download the slightly newer version of their Matrox utilities and capture another video to see if I still had the same co-mingling problem.
    So the AVI file linked above is from their newest version of Matrox utilities.


    It may be best to give up on the Matrox device and see if I can get my money back or cut my losses and run, then use one of the other devices I wasn't at least having the co-mingling situation.

    Thanks again
    Last edited by O-Manning; 11th Apr 2014 at 14:15.
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