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  1. Hello,

    I've just finished configuring a new installation of Media Player Classic with Reclock, LAV filters and madVR.
    However, the results I'm obtaining are somewhat weird.

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    I'm running the display at 60Hz (the only refresh rate it supports) and the source (23.976 fps) is playing at 24 fps through Reclock and yet, I have no dropped frames? I thought this was not possible in these conditions.

    Another thing that I'm not quite certain is functioning correctly is madVR.
    The mentioned source is a 1080p Blu-Ray rip upscaled to 1440p using the following settings:

    chroma upscaling: NNEDI3 256 neurons
    image doubling: NNEDI3 256 neurons
    image upscaling: Jinc 3 taps

    I thought my graphics cards would be overwhelmed with these settings, yet the load is minimum in both of them.

    What am I doing wrong?

    Thanks.
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  2. I live in PAL land, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as nobody has answered your question.....
    Each frame can only be displayed for a whole refresh, or more than one whole refresh. At 24fps, and if the refresh rate was 48Hz, each frame would display for 2 refreshes. When the refresh rate is 60Hz each frame would ideally display for 2.5 refreshes, but because it can't.... a frame displays for 3 refreshes, then the next one for 2 refreshes, then the next one for three and so on. That way, 60 refreshes displays 24 frames, which results in the NTSC "judder" effect. Motion mightn't always appear perfectly smooth, but no frames are actually dropped. As long as, I assume, the video is being decoded/rendered as fast as it should be.
    madVr has a smooth motion option which is supposed to add interpolated frames to smooth motion and remove judder etc, but I don't know how well it works or how good it looks. Mainly because my video card doesn't seem to cope well and it causes a lot of tearing so I don't use it.

    With my TV refreshing at 50Hz, the madVR stats for a 23.976fps video says there's a frame repeat every 0.98 seconds (under where the movie fps is listed). If I use Reclock to speed it up to 24fps it changes to a frame repeat every second. With Reclock set for 25fps it starts off showing a frame repeat every 3 or 4 hours which increases as the video plays. It doesn't seem to show the frame repeats for 24fps video at 60Hz though. Maybe that's just taken as read..... or thinking about it, when a frame of 24fps video is displayed for 3 refreshes it's not actually repeated as such, just as a frame displayed for 2 refreshes isn't dropped, so they wouldn't be counted as repeated/dropped frames. I'm not sure.... I hadn't really thought about it until now.
    It seems MadVR always displays the original frame rate/duration, regardless of what Reclock is doing.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "unscaled to 1440p".... maybe I'm missing the obvious.... but my old 8600GT video card can't even remotely cope with the NNEDI3 resolution thingy. The image basically freezes if it's being resized (ie running a 720p video full screen). It'll play 1080p video fine fullscreen though as there's no resizing so NNEDI3 isn't used. I assume it's only used when the video is upscaled and even then it'd depend how much it's upscaled (according to the setting). It looks like by default it's not used unless upscaling is more than 1.5x.

    PS. My PC is hooked up to both my CRT monitor and a Plasma TV. One refreshing at 85Hz and the other at 50Hz (sometimes 60Hz). When using any other renderer, I can open a video on one monitor, move the MPC-HC window to the other, and Reclock realises the refresh rate has changed and adjusts the video frame rate accordingly. For whatever reason, that doesn't happen when using madVR (XP, at least). For Reclock to work, it seems the video needs to be opened on the monitor which will be used to display it. Which is the main reason I don't use madVR much myself.
    Last edited by hello_hello; 12th Feb 2014 at 15:50.
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  3. Hi hello_hello,


    I live in PAL land, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but as nobody has answered your question.....
    Each frame can only be displayed for a whole refresh, or more than one whole refresh. At 24fps, and if the refresh rate was 48Hz, each frame would display for 2 refreshes. When the refresh rate is 60Hz each frame would ideally display for 2.5 refreshes, but because it can't.... a frame displays for 3 refreshes, then the next one for 2 refreshes, then the next one for three and so on. That way, 60 refreshes displays 24 frames, which results in the NTSC "judder" effect. Motion mightn't always appear perfectly smooth, but no frames are actually dropped. As long as, I assume, the video is being decoded/rendered as fast as it should be.
    madVr has a smooth motion option which is supposed to add interpolated frames to smooth motion and remove judder etc, but I don't know how well it works or how good it looks. Mainly because my video card doesn't seem to cope well and it causes a lot of tearing so I don't use it.
    With my TV refreshing at 50Hz, the madVR stats for a 23.976fps video says there's a frame repeat every 0.98 seconds (under where the movie fps is listed). If I use Reclock to speed it up to 24fps it changes to a frame repeat every second. With Reclock set for 25fps it starts off showing a frame repeat every 3 or 4 hours which increases as the video plays. It doesn't seem to show the frame repeats for 24fps video at 60Hz though. Maybe that's just taken as read..... or thinking about it, when a frame of 24fps video is displayed for 3 refreshes it's not actually repeated as such, just as a frame displayed for 2 refreshes isn't dropped, so they wouldn't be counted as repeated/dropped frames. I'm not sure.... I hadn't really thought about it until now.
    It seems MadVR always displays the original frame rate/duration, regardless of what Reclock is doing.

    I'm pretty sure that madVR reports pulldown as either dropped frames or repeated frames, as that happened to me several times before, even with Reclock. But as you can see in this case, the reported dropped frames is 0. That is what is weird about this, since there's 3:2 pulldown being applied.

    I tried smooth motion before with madVR and, although it provides a very good result in panning scenes, the overall detail that is apparently lost is unacceptable to me. In any case, smooth motion doesn't have anything to do with this problem.


    I'm not sure what you mean by "unscaled to 1440p".... maybe I'm missing the obvious.... but my old 8600GT video card can't even remotely cope with the NNEDI3 resolution thingy. The image basically freezes if it's being resized (ie running a 720p video full screen). It'll play 1080p video fine fullscreen though as there's no resizing so NNEDI3 isn't used. I assume it's only used when the video is upscaled and even then it'd depend how much it's upscaled (according to the setting). It looks like by default it's not used unless upscaling is more than 1.5x.

    Not unscaled, UPSCALED. madVR is upscaling the 1920x1080 bluray source to my monitor's resolution 2560x1440, using Jinc and upscaling chroma using NNEDI3. And I'm sure it is using NNEDI3 image doubling as I've defined it to run at 1.2x, not 1.5x.
    The problem (or not!) is that my graphics cards are not even warm using NNEDI3 256 neurons for image doubling, NNEDI3 256 neurons as chroma upscaling and Jinc 4 taps (not 3, sorry) for image upscaling.

    The graphics cards are 2x AMD R9 280x by the way. We're not talking about nVidia Titans here.
    Last edited by Ryuknar; 13th Feb 2014 at 17:10.
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  4. I did a little research and it appears any dropped frames listed towards the bottom are frames which just don't make it to the buffer in time to display when the screen refreshes. It's nothing to do with pulldown, but to do with vsync intervals. As long as a frame makes it to the buffer on time, madVR shouldn't show any dropped frames. I don't know what the difference between dropped and delayed frames is, exactly.

    I still haven't worked out exactly when madVR decides to display a timeframe for dropped/repeated frames further up, but I think it's intended to be a "prediction" rather than a statement of what has happened. I really don't think it has anything to do with pulldown either.
    If I watch 24fps video at 60Hz I don't see any dropped frames. I still think that's because no frames are actually repeated or dropped. Pulldown doesn't stop a frame from displaying at all, nor does it double a frame's usual display time.

    When I run the TV at 50Hz, madVR seems to display a dropped frames "prediction" for frame rates between something like 23fps and 26fps. For anything else it doesn't display it. If the video is 24fps, for example, it says it'll be repeating 1 frame per second.
    I wonder if that's because it's not dropping/repeating full frames for frame rates outside that range? For instance if the video was 25fps, each frame would display for 2 refreshes at 50Hz. If it's 30fps, 20 of those frames could display for the usual 2 refreshes while 10 of them only display for one. A 2:2:1 pattern makes sense (I think). No frames would be dropped, but one in five would just display for half the usual duration. I've no idea if that's how it actually works....

    Maybe these will make more sense to you than they did to me. I haven't had a chance to spend a lot of time reading yet.
    More game related, but probably still relevant. http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=928593
    http://www.avsforum.com/t/1357375/advanced-mpc-hc-setup-guide/510
    http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1556707

    PS. Unscaled was just my typo. I don't really know what happening with the NNEDI3 upscaling. I can't really test it myself as if I enable it everything comes to a standstill.
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