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  1. Member
    Join Date: Nov 2013
    Location: Grimsby, N.E. Lincolnshire. UK
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    Hi, I have been around the block a million times with this.

    Here's what I have:
    Source - MTS files 1920x1080 50fps (Canon HF R406)
    Software - Corel video studio 6, Sony Vegas 11, various converters.

    Here's what I need:
    To produce home movie video files of good quality for TV, played from a media hard drive. (multiple formats)

    Here's what I need to know:
    What project settings do I use in either software?
    What format, size, fps etc do I render to?
    Will I need to convert the source files before editing?
    What is the norm for people editing the same file format, to store & view on TV?

    Thanks,
    Colin
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  2. Banned
    Join Date: Oct 2004
    Location: New York, US
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    A worthy goal. However:

    A) From your personal computer details, there's no way a laptop will handle it.

    B) The software you mention is not smart-rendering for use with your source video, and after a few editing steps will result in a noisy video with considerably lowered quality.

    C) No one here has seen your videos. We would have no idea what settings you should use. If you want to use video processing software you have to consult its user manual. If you request help in the forum when specific problems arise, you can get more detailed answers. We can't read the user guide for you.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 06:29.
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  3. Member
    Join Date: Nov 2013
    Location: Grimsby, N.E. Lincolnshire. UK
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    Hi Sanlyn,
    Thank you for your input and I appreciate your expertise in this field but I am completely baffled by your response.

    A) I don't use a laptop for video editing.

    B) If the software does not comply with the source video then there must be a format conversion solution, any suggestions?

    C) Why would you want to see my videos? I did mention they were home movies. As far as manuals go, over the past 3 weeks I have probably read more manuals than Stephen Hawkins in trying to find a simple solution to this situation.

    D) Again, I did mention that I have a hard disc media player that is capable of playing multiple formats. The camera doesn't come with any editing software only an image importer program.

    I just don't get this.
    Basically, you are saying that the HD format produced by these relatively new camcorders cannot be edited on Sony & Corel (above average, not free download) software to produce a good quality file that can be stored & viewed on a TV?
    If that is the case then I must inform Canon that despite selling mountains of the product, they are totally useless for anyone wishing to shoot home movies..............Give me a break.

    Others will be faced with the same problem. There is a solution to this, I just don't think that you are the right person to come up with it.

    Thanks anyway.
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  4. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2008
    Location: United States
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    I think sanlyn picked up your laptop from your profile info.

    Are you talking about editing the video for transitions, cuts,titles,etc,etc? In general, you need to know the limitations
    of your devices. For example, it would probably be necessary to go down to 25 fps @ 1080p, or lower the resolution
    to 720p and maintain the 50 fps.

    Have you run some tests to find out what works and what looks best? As far as I'm aware, your software should
    be able to access the camera files. Have you tried it?
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  5. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2012
    Location: USA
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    Originally Posted by showdoctor View Post
    What project settings do I use in either software?
    Simply match your source 1920x1080 50fps (i or p?) It's usually best to import the whole folder.

    Originally Posted by showdoctor View Post
    What format, size, fps etc do I render to?
    Depends on how you will be using it. DVD requires 720x576 25fps mpeg2, YouTube wants 5,000kb mp4, etc.

    Originally Posted by showdoctor View Post
    Will I need to convert the source files before editing?
    You shouldn't have to in Vegas, don't know about Corel. A lot depends how strong your machine is.

    Originally Posted by showdoctor View Post
    What is the norm for people editing the same file format, to store & view on TV?
    There is no normal anymore. It depends on what you use to play it. DVD, BR, Mediaplayer, etc.

    Originally Posted by showdoctor View Post
    C) Why would you want to see my videos? I did mention they were home movies.
    No one wants to watch your home movies, they want to see how the files are structured to give more specific advice.
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  6. Member
    Join Date: Nov 2013
    Location: Grimsby, N.E. Lincolnshire. UK
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    Thanks guys for the quick response. I have tried and tested a number of different conversions going in (obviously losing quality along the way) & various formats when rendering. Some look great but are often quite large files, others not so good.

    The camera has a number of recording options:
    50P: 1920 x 1080, 28Mbps;
    MXP 50i: 1920x1080, 24Mbps;
    FXP 50i: 1920x1080, 17Mbps;
    LP 50i: 1440x1080, 5Mbps
    Four MP4 quality recording modes
    50p: 1920 x 1080, 35Mbps;
    25p: 1920 x 1080, 24Mbps,
    25p: 1920 x 1080, 17Mbps,
    25p: 1280 x 720, 4Mbps

    Am I asking too much in using the highest quality? Maybe I'm trying to get blood out of a stone here?
    Should I record in a different format which will be more suitable to the software?
    Both Vegas & Video Studio are sluggish when previewing the 1920 x 1080 50fps formats.


    Are you talking about editing the video for transitions, cuts,titles,etc,etc? In general, you need to know the limitations
    of your devices. For example, it would probably be necessary to go down to 25 fps @ 1080p, or lower the resolution
    to 720p and maintain the 50 fps.
    That's exactly what I am hoping to do, simple editing and save to play on TV.
    Previously I owned a Sony DV (Tape) Handycam. It was so easy to edit the footage in Sony Vegas and burn it to DVD. Those DVDs have now been ripped to our media hard drive and we want to continue the collection with a better quality camera. I just didn't realise that it was going to be so difficult to achieve the same results, &, with the advances in camera technology I thought the end result would be much higher quality. But, as it seems, regardless of the recording quality, by the time I have converted and/or rendered down to DVD, am I right in saying that the final result won't be much different to that recorded with the old Sony camera?

    Thanks again for the input.
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  7. Banned
    Join Date: Oct 2004
    Location: New York, US
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    IF the computer you're using to edit your videos is not your laptop, then you have misleading or obsolete info in your profile. Rather than guess what you're going to use, I'm going to say again that your laptop is not adequate to work with big-frame HD formats. If you have another XP/Win7 PC that has at least a quad-core 3Ghz CPU and 4GB RAM or more, that's what you'll need.

    I would not recommend doing a great deal of "editing" of lossy formats in either Corel or Vegas. They are not smart-rendering editors. The software you need depends on how much your "editing" consists of. We wouldn't be able to guess. Yours is a typical question that we see in this forum at least daily. The replies are always the same: (a) Let us know something more about what you mean by "edit". (b) please be a little more precise about the final format you want to have. (c) AVCHD transport stream (MTs, TS, etc.) is usually not "opened" in editing software but is imported using the procedures in your software's user guide; if your software gives you no guidance, there are plenty of Vegas forums that cover these issues; if you still find no information about importing transport stream video, get better software. (d) The usual recommendation for complex editing is to decode AVCHD to lossless media, avoid using the typically modest software you mention for this type of work, and learn what video encoding entails -- either that, or use what you have and accept serious quality loss.

    Yes, indeed, Corel and others sell lots of hyped-up software that plays on your ignorance. We should all be so successful, but we still wouldn't use their products. I import and process BluRay, AVCHD, and DVD transport streams and recorded material 24/7/365 with several tools, including Avisynth, Virtualdub, TMPGEnc Smart Renderer, TMPGenc Video Mastering Works, TX264, and Adobe AfterEffects Pro, among others.

    Probably you would better off using your very capable Canon camera to record 1280x720 HD, a file and frame size that is easier to handle, easier on CPU's, and faster in processing.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 06:29.
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  8. Member
    Join Date: Nov 2013
    Location: Grimsby, N.E. Lincolnshire. UK
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    Thank you Sanlyn for your help. I will try some of the camera's other recording options, see if that makes life easier.
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  9. Member budwzr's Avatar
    Join Date: Apr 2007
    Location: City Of Angels
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    In Sony Vegas, you simply match the project to the media, using the "Media Match" button in the top right corner of the project properties dialog box. Then use a matching render template.
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  10. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2007
    Location: Canada
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    If the content of the home movies is even remotely important or sentimental , you're going to want to record at the highest quality level, or you will probably regret it later

    You can always dumb it down for your media player, or upgrade your computer, use an intermediate editing codec etc.. but it's (still) difficult to time travel

    The most popular windows intermediate codec would be cineform . The free version is "go pro cineform studio". The filesize will be several times larger than your original, because it's less compressed - but that makes editing smooth at full resolution even on older hardware. It has several selectable quality levels (thus control over larger vs. smaller filesizes)
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  11. Banned
    Join Date: Oct 2004
    Location: New York, US
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    Originally Posted by budwzr View Post
    In Sony Vegas, you simply match the project to the media, using the "Media Match" button in the top right corner of the project properties dialog box. Then use a matching render template.
    A matching render template for what? Re-rendering the entire video? Unless all editions of Vegas have recently added smart rendering for AVCHD, I dont know why anyone would want their videos re-encoded more than once. Unless you refer to importing ? ? I'm open for updated info in this regard. I last Vegas Pro v9.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 06:29.
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  12. Member budwzr's Avatar
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    Location: City Of Angels
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    The video is from a camera. Of course you can't make any editing "stick" unless you render it out.

    But no worries. Digital video can have many good generations. That's why they use digital prints now, and the film goes into storage.
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  13. Banned
    Join Date: Oct 2004
    Location: New York, US
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    Originally Posted by budwzr View Post
    But no worries. Digital video can have many good generations. That's why they use digital prints now, and the film goes into storage.
    I have no idea what you're talking about. You say multiple re-encoding in a non-smart rendering editor is a good deal? For your videos, perhaps. Vegas will never crap up another of my videos again with claims about its beautiful rendering on lossy media. I'm glad I found that out with the trial version instead of paying for it.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 06:30.
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  14. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Location: United Kingdom
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    Originally Posted by showdoctor View Post
    regardless of the recording quality, by the time I have converted and/or rendered down to DVD, am I right in saying that the final result won't be much different to that recorded with the old Sony camera?
    Yes. You've bought an HD camcorder. Work in HD. Forget DVDs. They are SD only.

    (Even DV can be better quality than DVD, though still SD - you were already reducing the quality of your old camcorder tapes by putting them onto DVD, though probably only slightly. You would dramatically reduce the quality of 1920x1080p50 by putting it onto a 720x576i25 DVD)

    Cheers,
    David.
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  15. Member
    Join Date: Nov 2013
    Location: Grimsby, N.E. Lincolnshire. UK
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    Hi David,
    I wish it was as easy to wok in HD as it was in SD, but from info gathered here I have quickly found out that without a "high end" machine and expensive software the task is somewhat difficult.
    The raw (MTS) footage is impossible to edit on Vegas & Video Studio so I am compelled to convert to a more friendly format, obviously losing quality along the way. After completing a number of tests it seems the MPG2 1280 x 720 25fps format is the most favorable both in and out.
    So until some other option comes along it looks like I am stuck with it.

    I just wondered, what is the point of being able to shoot in HD if your "average joe" like me can no longer edit & render to something for the family album without losing all that quality along the way? Does this mean that "home video" enthusiasts who migrated from DV tape to HD can no longer edit & keep those memories without spending money on hardware & software upgrades?

    Cheers,
    Colin
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  16. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2007
    Location: Canada
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    You didn't list your computer specs . Did you try reducing the preview quality in vegas ?

    If upgrading hardware isn't an option, the other option is a proxy edit - people have been doing this since HD came out . Basically you use low resolution, lower quality intermediates to edit (so editing is smooth), and swap back in full quality originals when you export

    Cineform as a digital intermediate will allow you to edit smoothly in full resolution , high quality, if you have a computer within the last 5 years (at least a dual core)
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  17. Banned
    Join Date: Oct 2004
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    Originally Posted by showdoctor View Post
    I wish it was as easy to wok in HD as it was in SD, but from info gathered here I have quickly found out that without a "high end" machine and expensive software the task is somewhat difficult.
    Yes, it is. I personally hate working with 1920x1080. 1280x720 is easier on the nerves.

    Originally Posted by showdoctor View Post
    The raw (MTS) footage is impossible to edit on Vegas & Video Studio so I am compelled to convert to a more friendly format, obviously losing quality along the way. After completing a number of tests it seems the MPG2 1280 x 720 25fps format is the most favorable both in and out.
    So until some other option comes along it looks like I am stuck with it.
    It's not impossible with a smart-rendering editor designed for the work. MPEG will be no better (probably worse) with a non-smart renderer. HD and MPEG are designed as final delivery formats, not for editing. There are some around, and they are pretty good. I use TMPGenc Smart Renderer. Have used their smart rendering editors for years.

    If by "edit" you mean adding audio, titles, transitions, multiple tracks, color correction, etc., etc., etc., not even a smart renderer can help you there. You'll have to go lossless for best quality. Most of the tools for doing that are free, including the HD encoders. You can do complex work with lossless formats in the software you mention. But I don't care for their encoders (but that's just me).

    Originally Posted by showdoctor View Post
    I just wondered, what is the point of being able to shoot in HD if your "average joe" like me can no longer edit & render to something for the family album without losing all that quality along the way? Does this mean that "home video" enthusiasts who migrated from DV tape to HD can no longer edit & keep those memories without spending money on hardware & software upgrades?
    Join the club. I had to upgrade, and so have many others. I built my own computers for it, but that's not absolutely necessary.

    The tools are out there. I suggest that you're using the wrong software and/or inappropriate techniques for what you want to do, and you're getting lower quality. That was as true for SD/DVD "back then" as it is today for HD.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 06:30.
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  18. Originally Posted by showdoctor View Post
    I just wondered, what is the point of being able to shoot in HD if your "average joe" like me can no longer edit & render to something for the family album without losing all that quality along the way?
    Bottom line is, you have to add price for latest, fast computer on the top of your new camcorder if you intend to edit it and make movies. You have to have PC up to specs to manage HD mpeg4- avc video.

    Making those mpeg2 files you basicaly making proxy files, get them encoded under the same name as originals, find something that will batch encode the whole folder. Then edit those proxy videos, and after you are done just replace those proxy files with originals. This works, even most raw method: save project, exit, move folder with those proxy videos from original location, and load that save project again, Vegas will find out that its files are not there anymore and asks what to do, gives some options, so you just pinpoint location into your folder with original videos. Vegas wil simply replace proxy files for originals ones in your project. Then fix project properties to original video properties and export ....

    Proxy is a nuisance, you have to have your files stored neatly and separate them from originals, you should leave same names for proxy and original. But nevertheless it will bring you a HD movie as a result ...
    Last edited by _Al_; 11th Feb 2014 at 09:13.
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