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  1. Member LouieChuckyMerry's Avatar
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    Hello and thanks in advance for any help. I've a handful of x264-mp4 Blu Ray rips that I'm wanting to clean up with Neat Video using Adobe Premiere Pro. After testing Lagarith and UtVideo I'd decided to use UtVideo RGB (ULRG) (size isn't an issue and Ut Video RGB was about 10% faster than Lagarith RGB) to create intermediate files. I then plan to use Simple x264 Launcher to shrivel these beasts down to a reasonable size for traveling. However, I've a question before I begin: is UtVideo RGB (ULRG) the best UtVideo option to use for my task, going from 1080p x264 to Ut Video then back to 1080p x264? I ask because there are five more UtVideo options but while trying to learn more about them I simply became more confused as to whether or not they're even applicable to my task. That is, I couldn't figure out if any of the other options play nice with 1080p x264. I'd like to test them for speed compared to UtVideo RGB but I don't want to waste my time if they wouldn't work. Thanks again for your time.
    Last edited by LouieChuckyMerry; 4th Feb 2014 at 20:13. Reason: Fixed Links
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  2. using rgb sounds like a waste of resources since the source and target are only yv12 (4:2:0), so assuming Adobe Premiere Pro can handle yv12 (and stay in it) and UT supports it to, I would stick to Yv12, but I guess another Neat Video user can probably say more about this,...
    (side note: when converting between RGB and Yv12 make sure to use the correct color conversion matrix)
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 07:42.
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  4. Use the colorspace that Premiere Pro outputs (I think it's RGB). If it is putting out RGB and you use YV12 mode you'll be performing two extra colorspace conversions: RGB to YV12 in UT, then YV12 back to RGB in VirtualDub (for filtering). Each colorspace conversion will result in a loss of color sharpness and precision.
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    PP CS5 and newer can stay in YUV timeline, but can't if you apply neat video, or other RGB filters. The "YUV" labelled filters work in YUV and the timeline can stay in YUV

    So you should convert to RGB using Rec709 for UT RGB using avisynth, import to PP + Neat Video, Export UT RGB, Convert back to YV12 using Rec709 with avisynth (since x264 will do the RGB=>YUV conversion using Rec601)
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 07:42.
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  7. Many Blu-ray discs have lots of grain because the original film had lots of grain. I wouldn't remove it unless I had some pressing need to reduce file size by a huge amount. But some people like the smooth over-processed look. I don't care if the OP wants to ruin his videos!
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    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    But NeatVideo for BluRay source? I don't get it.
    Some retail BD's are REALLY REALLY grainy , even for grain lovers

    Since his intent is portability, it sounds like he wants to reduce the filesize by reducing the grain
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 07:42.
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  10. Also the source isn't a Blu-ray its 'a handful of x264-mp4 Blu Ray rips ', so if the Blu-ray had noise, then someone reencoded it using too a low bitrate (+ may be added unnecessary sharpening&co) the mp4 files he has as source might really be looking awful.
    In general I agree, using need on decent Blu-ray content might be a mistake.
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 07:42.
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  12. Member LouieChuckyMerry's Avatar
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    Thank you all for your kind replies and apologies for the ignorant confusion of my original post. I mostly understand the replies but I'll still try to make my question clearer (mostly for me):


    1) I sometimes use Simple x264 Launcher to shrivel 10-30 GB h264-mp4 Blu Ray rips to a more manageable size for travel. This I know how to do.

    2) I've presently a handful of h264-mp4 Blu Ray rips of the same sort but suffering from a combination of source- and-or ripper-noise. I'd like to clean these up using Adobe Premiere Pro with Neat Video 3.5 Pro, utilizing UtVideo for intermediate file creation before shriveling them with Simple x264 Launcher.

    3) I'm not sure which UtVideo option is best for my application, as there are six choices: UtVideo RGB (ULRG) VCM, UtVideo RGBA (ULRA) VCM, UtVideo YUV420 BT.601 (ULY0) VCM, UtVideo YUV420 BT.709 (ULH0) VCM, UtVideo YUV422 BT.601 (ULY2) VCM, and UtVideo YUV422 BT.709 (ULH2) VCM.


    Now, I appreciate poisondeathray's suggestion to "...convert to RGB using Rec709 for UT RGB using avisynth, import to PP + Neat Video, Export UT RGB, Convert back to YV12 using Rec709 with avisynth (since x264 will do the RGB=>YUV conversion using Rec601)" because I'm typically one to do something as well as possible, but given that I'll be watching the results on a 1600x900 14" laptop I'm willing to make an exception .

    jagaob typed "Use the colorspace that Premiere Pro outputs (I think it's RGB). If it is putting out RGB and you use YV12 mode you'll be performing two extra colorspace conversions: RGB to YV12 in UT, then YV12 back to RGB in VirtualDub (for filtering). Each colorspace conversion will result in a loss of color sharpness and precision.". I'm not sure which colorspace Premiere Pro outputs. How would I check?

    Given the above, that I'd prefer a single step (PP, NV, UtVideo) before The Shriveling, which of the six UtVideo options would you all recommend?


    P.S.-sanlyn: just to scratch your brain itch http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/359226-Recommended-VirtualDub-(Or-Avisynth-)-Plugin...o-Remove-Grain
    Last edited by LouieChuckyMerry; 4th Feb 2014 at 20:11. Reason: Fixed A Link
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  13. Originally Posted by LouieChuckyMerry View Post
    jagaob typed "Use the colorspace that Premiere Pro outputs (I think it's RGB). If it is putting out RGB and you use YV12 mode you'll be performing two extra colorspace conversions: RGB to YV12 in UT, then YV12 back to RGB in VirtualDub (for filtering). Each colorspace conversion will result in a loss of color sharpness and precision.". I'm not sure which colorspace Premiere Pro outputs. How would I check?
    Sorry, I misunderstood your workflow. I thought you were going to use Neat Video in VirtualDub. But I guess you're using Neat Video in PP. Use poisondeathray's procedure.
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  14. Member LouieChuckyMerry's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Sorry, I misunderstood your workflow. I thought you were going to use Neat Video in VirtualDub. But I guess you're using Neat Video in PP. Use poisondeathray's procedure.
    Thanks for your reply, jagabo. Is there no way to avoid a (very) long three-step process? That is, is there not a way to simply feed the original rip into PP and export it losslessly in one of the six UtVideo formats while maintaining "most" of the quality? Either way, which UtVideo option would be best (and I realize that best is a relative term) for my workflow?


    Edit: I've Googled about but can't find any useful information. Would someone, anyone, pretty please explain to me the differences-specific uses between-for the six UtVideo options:

    UtVideo RGB (ULRG) VCM, UtVideo RGBA (ULRA) VCM, UtVideo YUV420 BT.601 (ULY0) VCM, UtVideo YUV420 BT.709 (ULH0) VCM, UtVideo YUV422 BT.601 (ULY2) VCM, and UtVideo YUV422 BT.709 (ULH2) VCM

    or point me to a guide. Thanks for that.
    Last edited by LouieChuckyMerry; 4th Feb 2014 at 21:40. Reason: Grammar And-Or Syntax; Additional Question
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    Assuming your source was done properly in the first place, you should use ULH0 (BT709) exporting from premiere if you want a 1 step process, and you are using CS5 or newer

    The difference between the various versions of UT are YUV vs. RGB color models and subsampling. Lossless codecs are only lossless in the same color model / color space. If you aren't using the same color space, it's not lossless - you incur some loss as mentioned by jagabo above. So ideally you use the UT version that matches your source . CS5 and newer versions of premiere handle UT video in the proper colorspace. Often software might do some other conversions "behind the scenes" or not handle "lossless" codecs in their native color space

    422 and 420 are YUV chroma subsampled versions . Read up on chroma subsampling if you want more information. Basically there is less color information, and the the filesize will be smaller for 420, largest for RGB

    BT709 is normally used for HD by default convention, 601 for SD and everything else. You get slight color shifting if you use the wrong one. Not all programs handle YUV<=>RGB conversions correctly . Those matrices in the UT name (BT601 vs. 709) for UT are what UT uses for the RGB=>YUV conversion, when recieving a RGB source, IF the conversion is allowed to be done by UT video, not by something else in the chain

    If you load the video directly into premiere, with neat video, it will be converted to RGB with the proper 709 matrix automatically if you are using a recent version. Older premiere versions used 601 always for the RGB conversion, except for v210 sources. So it would make sense to export RGB from premiere, because neat video is working in RGB. So if you load that right into x264, the wrong colors will occur as mentioned above, because BT601 will be used at that last step by x264 . Unless you encode RGB with x264 (it's not very efficient way of encoding; YUV444 is more efficient than RGB - but the majority of x264 usage is YV12, or YUV 420) , or control the conversion to YUV with something like avisynth

    However, you can use ULH0 from PP, and the conversion to YV12 will use the 709 matrix. So this will work in CS5 and newer. If you are using CS4 or older, using ULY0 would work because all conversions will be using 601, even x264, so even though it's the "wrong" matrix, it gets reversed back because essentially the wrong matrix is used twice. "Two wrongs do make a right" in that case :P

    But some people want more control over the chroma subsampling, chroma placement, kernal used etc... that's another reason for using avisynth , or other methods

    Or you can avoid RGB altogether by staying in the same colorspace, and use YUV filters eg. with avisynth to filter your source
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 4th Feb 2014 at 22:36.
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  16. Member LouieChuckyMerry's Avatar
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    poisondeathray: thank you very much for your reply. I ran my test piece through Premiere Pro with Neat Video and exported it to a UtVideo ULH0 file. After recovering from the flashback incurred by attempting to play this intermediate file with VLC , I used Simple x264 Launcher to shrink it to a more transportable bitrate and the result was great. Plus, using UtVideo ULH0 instead of UtVideo ULRG was about 6% faster. Also, thank you for the description of the differences between the various UtVideo options, I really appreciate it. I'd like to learn more about color models-color spaces and chroma subsampling, and as soon as I've adequate free time I'll attack the topics. Thanks again for your help .
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