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  1. Member Tafflad's Avatar
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    Have finished video edits in Vegas, 1Hr 20min, of SD quality PAL, Stereo.
    When I use 'make DVD' option, it recommends 'Main Concept PAL' template.
    I select 2 pass, and render along with audio.
    By default it uses AC3.
    If I then use DVD architect, if advises it won't fit on DVD, and that it will recompress the audio.
    Should I select optimise too allow this, one option suggested is instead render Audio as wav.
    Resulting DVDs will be played on domestic DVD players, will wav be the best way forward.
    One off the reasons I had bought the upgrade of Sony Movie studio to get AC3, which I thought was most compatible for creating DVD's, so a bit frustrating.
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  2. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Check the bit-rate for the video rather than the audio. AC3 goes up to 448 kbps so you will not gain much by recompressing that down.

    I hour 20 for a 4 gig dvd is approx 7000 kbps. I guess the template has adopted 8000 kbps which is the standard for just 1 hour of video.
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  3. Do not let DVD Architect to optimize anything, use one of those on-line DVD bitrate calculators to just fit DVD, to encode it right in the first place.
    Google for it, or there is one bitrate calculator here on videohelp.

    you might get something like this (better to verify this):
    7,200,000 average bitrate for 2pass VBR, for video
    192, 224 max 384kbps for audio bitrate or so

    remember menu eats some volume too, video menu a lot, static menu, not that much
    Last edited by _Al_; 30th Jan 2014 at 19:16.
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  4. The muxing overhead will eat way more bits than a simple menu. Didn't you use a bitrate calculator to help figure the bitrate? I don't trust DVD Architect for anything, and don't let it 'optimize' anything. Did you actually try and author it? It won't know for sure it's going to go over until it finishes the authoring.

    What I'd do, if not sure, is to do a quick mux with Muxman to see what the final size is going to be. Then you can add in the menu size to know what the final size will be.

    will wav be the best way forward.
    It'll be the best way backward. You already have an AC3 file you're happy with and you are thinking of ballooning the size even more by converting to WAV audio?
    One off the reasons I had bought the upgrade of Sony Movie studio to get AC3...
    There are several good and free AC3 encoders, Aften, eac3to, etc.
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  5. Member Tafflad's Avatar
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    OK ... no I did not use either of tools you mention, as a quick background, I asked on Vegas forum what Render template to use, and was told that you should always use the 'make video' wizard and let Vegas sort it out, but happy to be put right if that is not the case.

    This has not come up previously as all other videos have been less than 1Hr so just fitted on DVD

    I have the original files dropped into Vegas ... a fair amount of editing has taken place .... what file do I load into MuxMan ..... Vegas doesn't give a video file until after you have carried out 'Render As' ..? and Muxman can't open that. ? or am I trying to do the wrong thing.

    I looked at the PAL template ..
    It's set for VBR 2pass
    Max Bitrate 9,500,000
    Avg 6,000,000

    Audio is set at Stereo, 224kb Bitrate, 44kHz sample
    The audio is 2 part ... what is included in the main Type 2 DV file, and an 8.8Mb mp3 track

    No menus to be used - simple DVD only.

    I downloaded Bitrate Calc ... and have input numbers .. is this correct ?

    I don't see how this accounts for VBR ? or do I just set Bitrate filed to VBR max ? ... feel free to educate me
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    Last edited by Tafflad; 31st Jan 2014 at 05:02.
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  6. Member DB83's Avatar
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    224kb audio would be mp2. But 44khz is NOT dvd compliant. So maybe, just maybe, the program is telling you I must reencode the audio just for that reason since an avg 6,000 bit rate should be fine for 80 minutes

    The 9500 kbps is the dvd maximum but that will include PCM audio which itself gobbles up 1.536 kbps.

    Use the calculator and input numbers for greater accuracy.
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  7. Originally Posted by Tafflad View Post
    what file do I load into MuxMan
    Didn't you say you encoded using Main Concept? You'd load the DVD compliant M2V or MPV you got out of that, along with your AC3 audio.

    Muxman accepts only DVD compliant video and audio. No DV AVI, no MP3, no 44kHz audio. Why are you even using DVD Architect if all you're doing is authoring with it?

    I don't see how this accounts for VBR ?
    Why not? It's giving you an average bitrate for your VBR. You choose your own max and min bitrates. But if 9500 is the average, it's way too high.

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    224kb audio would be mp2.
    Not necessarily. I make 224 stereo AC3 audio all the time.

    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    The 9500 kbps is the dvd maximum
    10080 is the max. I use a 9500 max bitrate all the time, with my 224 AC3 audio.

    http://www.videohelp.com/dvd
    Last edited by manono; 31st Jan 2014 at 05:20.
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  8. Member DB83's Avatar
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    You just need the video bit rate in that box for the calculator. But it only accepts one figure so you enter the maximum. Try 8000 and below that.
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  9. Member Tafflad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Originally Posted by Tafflad View Post
    what file do I load into MuxMan
    You'd load the DVD compliant M2V or MPV you got out of that, along with your AC3 audio.

    Why are you even using DVD Architect


    > But if 9500 is the average, it's way too high.
    Manono .. I used Architect as it came with the Sony Platinum suite so assumed good integration & less hassles. .... but I could make the DVD with something else ( AVStoDVD ?) ... or please suggest, I have used IMGBurn previoulsy.

    I encoded with MainConcept .. the output files are.
    name vf
    name.mpg.sfl
    nam.mpeg.sfk
    name.mpg

    There is no N2V or MPV file, and there is no separate audio file.

    Muxman will not allow the name.mpg file to load ... simply sees empty folder, no valid file type.

    Bitrate ... in the Bitrate Calc it only shows 1 figure, what I didn't understand is how this relates to VBR ... is this figure the average of the Max figure (from the Mainconcept template)
    Last edited by Tafflad; 31st Jan 2014 at 08:08.
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  10. Member Tafflad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    You just need the video bit rate in that box for the calculator. But it only accepts one figure so you enter the maximum. Try 8000 and below that.
    I just tried it now dialling down the figure in MainConcept for peak form 9500kbs to 9000kbs it now fits fine.
    Is this likely to hit video playback quality appreciably ?
    What are the recommended settings VBR for DVD ?

    I assumed MainConcept would have chosen optimum settings .. sounds like not the case
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    Originally Posted by Tafflad View Post
    I just tried it now dialling down the figure in MainConcept for peak form 9500kbs to 9000kbs it now fits fine.
    Is this likely to hit video playback quality appreciably ?
    What are the recommended settings VBR for DVD ?
    Most human beings will never notice a difference in MPEG-2 video encoded at 9000 Kbps vs. 9500.

    I don't know that there really are "recommended settings" for VBR. I usually just set the maximum somewhere between 1000 and 2000 above my average bit rate, with lower average bit rate encodings going towards the higher end of that scale and higher average bit rate encodings going towards the lower end of that scale. But I'm sure others do things differently.
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  12. Member DB83's Avatar
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    A reduction from 9500 to 9000 will not make much difference. But I suspect that the avg bitrate is somewaht lower for the vid to fit this time. You should check that in mediainfo and the original one if you still have it for the difference.

    Impossible to answer the rec setting question as that will alter for each and every vid. Rule of thumb for mpeg2 - higher is better.
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  13. Member Tafflad's Avatar
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    Just checked reducing Peak to 9,000 did not move avg bitrate. Left Audio as was.

    Thanks
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  14. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tafflad View Post
    Just checked reducing Peak to 9,000 did not move avg bitrate. Left Audio as was.

    Thanks
    Audio should be constant so I did not expect it to change. The change affects video bitrate.
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  15. Your calculations hare somewhat wrong, be careful,

    -your DVD is 80 minutes= 4800 seconds.
    -While having audio 192kbps all you do is 34400000/4800= ~7100

    -use that 7100 as average bitarte, encode m2v - MainConcept mpeg2, DVD Architect PAL stream, set 2pass VBR, average 7,100,000
    -encode audio 192kbps either use Dolby Digital AC3 studio template (192kbps only) or use that Pro version template for AC3 encoding (you have DVD Architect installed so you have that template also) but use 192kbps also.

    -understand that average is just average, maximum you can have 8500 (I'd recomend it as max, not 9500) for example and min. much less than 7100, but do not go too low

    -in DVD Architect set file/optimize disc video and check your video, it has to have "recompress" set to "no", same for audio track

    -these calculations above were for simple static menu, if you'd use long video menu , you'd need more room on that DVD, so you'd have to go with lower average video bitrate, or better use bitratecalculator, not sure you got wrong results in the first place
    Last edited by _Al_; 31st Jan 2014 at 11:31.
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  16. Originally Posted by Tafflad View Post

    There is no N2V or MPV file, and there is no separate audio file.
    Muxman accepts only elementary streams - separate video and audio - not already muxed, as in an MPG. I didn't realize that Main Concept also encoded audio. You'd either have to demux to use Muxman, or use something else, something that will demux internally.
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  17. Originally Posted by Tafflad View Post
    No menus to be used - simple DVD only.
    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    -these calculations above were for simple static menu, if you'd use long video menu , you'd need more room on that DVD...
    He's not creating any menus but using it only for authoring.
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  18. Vegas exports elementary streams exactly in m2v form if under Custom button , then "System" in the bottom of window is selected, then check "Save as separate elementary streams".

    As for that "DVD Architect PAL video stream" template, it will be video only in any case, but stored as mpg with no audio or just m2v if that checkbox is checked as I described above.
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  19. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Whenever I've used Vegas exporting for use in DVDA (LOTS), I've always exported in 2 passes: 1 for the M2V elementary stream, and 1 for the AC3 elementary stream. Never had the problems you're witnessing. Of course, I NEVER just stick with their stock export templates - always tweak for optimal bitrate, using an external BR calc (usually my own spreadsheet-based one) - just use those as a basis for jumping off.

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  20. Member Tafflad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    encode audio 192kbps either use Dolby Digital AC3 studio template
    I'm not using a separate audio template MainConcept PAL video stream template includes the audio ? .... how would I use 2 templates for single DVD creation ? (not against it, just never done it)

    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    -these calculations above were for simple static menu
    Not using any menus

    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    better use bitratecalculator
    I did use (as suggested) the BitRate Calc ... posted results in post#05 ...
    If those results are incorrect can you advise where I have gone wrong the entries are shown in the screen grab.
    Not used it before.


    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    DVD Architect set file/optimize disc video and check your video, it has to have "recompress" set to "no", same for audio track
    Can you advise where that option is ?
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  21. It is all kind of explained above, export m2v and AC3 from Vegas, read all my posts again, load those into DVD Architect.

    BTW. this is not unusual way of making DVD, as Cornucopia says, I do exactly the same. Actually I would not even thing otherwise, I guess old school. Advantages for this? You can make your m2v and AC3 streams in your preferred encoder, or using some tweaking methods to fix picture or resize HD interlace source, or denoise first etc. etc., but that does not matter now, you do not have to do those, you just simply make AC3 and mv2 (or mpg) by Vegas and load them into DVD Architect. This is actually weak point in that Sony software - transport of data from Vegas to Architect - non existent, it is kind of almost ridicules, why DVD Architect just simply do not accept Vegas timeline? That would be natural way of things. Nevertheless it works if you do it the way as described above. Even third party software supports loading of Vegas timeline into DVD Architect (debug mode frame server, DVD Architect can load signpost avi) but Sony directly does not support that. Hence threads like this, quite common occurrence that degrades otherwise super programs.

    To check for recompress in DVD Architect:
    After you import your Media video and audio DVD Architect, you go into File/Optimize Disc, click on media you imported and check what you have there under video and audio TABs, ..., the way some DVD Architect menu works, it does not appear at first glance that there is a choice available but rather you can see a simple list of values that appear on screen. But after you click on it, drop down list appears and you can choose what it offers. In this case there could be "yes" and "no" in the line where it says Recompress, so after clicking on yes drop down list offers yes and no, you choose no.
    Last edited by _Al_; 31st Jan 2014 at 16:51.
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  22. Member Tafflad's Avatar
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    Got it ... Thanks
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  23. Member Tafflad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    Your calculations hare somewhat wrong, be careful,

    -your DVD is 80 minutes= 4800 seconds.
    -While having audio 192kbps all you do is 34400000/4800= ~7100

    -use that 7100 as average bitarte, encode m2v - MainConcept mpeg2, DVD Architect PAL stream, set 2pass VBR, average 7,100,000
    -encode audio 192kbps either use Dolby Digital AC3 studio template (192kbps only) or use that Pro version template for AC3 encoding (you have DVD Architect installed so you have that template also) but use 192kbps also.

    -understand that average is just average, maximum you can have 8500 (I'd recomend it as max, not 9500) for example and min. much less than 7100, but do not go too low
    Trying to better my understanding ..

    Where does the 34400000 number come from ?

    If as you suggest above I increase the average to be 7,100,000 (was 6,000,000) and use 8,500,000 as max, (was 9,500,000) what would you suggest as minimum, I appreciate you said much lower than avg - but I have no idea what that constitutes ... template has put in 192,000.
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  24. That 34400000 comes from simple calculations (if not using bitrate calculators):

    You can start with 4.1GigaBytes, that is nice safe number to place on DVD, considering you have to have some reserve for audio (for example 192kbps = 0.0234375 Megabytes; 0.0234375 x4800= 112MB ... very little) , static menu, maybe some multiplexing overhead as manono says (to be honest I never considered that before)

    So that 4.1 GB you can put on website like this: http://www.matisse.net/bitcalc/?input_amount=4.1&input_units=gigabytes&notation=legacy and it shows you GB to kilobits conversion, result is 34393292.8 so you round this up to 34400000kbps, so that is how I got that number. You can divide it with your run time, 4800 seconds to get average bitrate in kbps.

    But do not worry about calculations now, you trust some bitrate calculator and you get some average, anyway, for example, there is almost no difference between 8000kbps or 7500kbps, as long as it fits on DVD, differences start to be visible when you have DVD runtime longer and you need to go below 6000kbps and lower ... Lower bitrates start to give visible artifacts much more.

    Minimum bitrate, whatever,...., 4000 to 5000, with average so high, minimum can be higher also ...

    Anyway, what is your source? I have here program that will make you DVD with click of a button if your source is PAL DV video. No knowledge needed whatsoever.
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  25. Member Tafflad's Avatar
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    Thanks for the numbers explanation ...
    I will try using BitRate Calculator going fwd ....
    If I use AC3 bit rate will be 320
    I have input run duration & frame size, so I then adjust video bit rate to get it to be less than 4.7GB ...

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    So this '7500' videorate is what I would put in as the "Average" ...in my Render setting ...... that was the bit I didn't understand previously whether the number in this calculator gave me peak or average.

    My source is mpg file out of Any Vegas.

    As this is only 2-Ch stereo, I may even opt to use mpeg-2 audio, if I can fins answer on which to use .... (know AC3 gives surround sound - but there is none on this recording)
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  26. -you choose maximum , peaks, it has to be less then max DVD bitrate - 9800kbps, but I would not burn something higher than 8500 just to be sure,
    -you choose minimum bitrate,
    in a sense they have nothing to do with average bitrate - average you have to calculate
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  27. Member Tafflad's Avatar
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    on Render Template it gives me 3 fields to enter ...

    Maximum, Average and Aluminium
    on BitRate Calculator only gives one number 'video bit rate' .... so when I run Bitrate calculator the number for 'video rate ' .. 7,500 do I enter that in average field? and then enter something else in maximum & minimum ?
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  28. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Consider the bitrate for the calculator as the maximum. Then you know that your files should fit. But for a dvd, you should always allow enough the overhead (menu etc.)

    Renderers usually only give you maximum and minimum. There is no way you can determine average since that only exists once the video is rendered. But if the option exists, set the 7500, in your example as the average, 9200 as the maximum and, say, 5500 as the minimum. Check the final render to see if you do not get more than 7500
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  29. Member Tafflad's Avatar
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    Previoulsy I had used :
    Max 8,500,000
    Avg 7,500,000
    Min 192,000

    If I use the settings you suggest
    Max 9,200,000
    Avg 7,500,000
    Min 5,500,00

    Won't that dramatically increase file size ? .......... raising minimum bitrate from 192Kb to 5.5 Mb
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  30. the total size (volume) for your DVD sets average bitrate

    minimum and maximum bitrate do not influence your total at all,


    that example of yours above my post gets always the same size for DVD, both DVD's would have same total volume,
    as long as average bitrate is the same, so is the total volume of your DVD

    I forgot to answer your question, just to be sure, answer is no, not at all.
    Last edited by _Al_; 3rd Feb 2014 at 12:29.
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