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  1. Banned
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    check out this deal:

    http://www.amazon.com/Seiki-Digital-SE39UY04-39-Inch-Ultra/dp/B00DOPGO2G

    i'm kind of pissed, i bought myself a christmas present, a $300 41" 1080p 60hz westinghouse, part of me is tempted pick up this 4k tv and use it as a big ass pc monitor.
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  2. Nice price. I think it's too big to use as a computer monitor though. And only 30 Hz at 4K? Maybe now 2560x1440 ~27" monitors will start coming down in price.
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  3. Member yoda313's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    And only 30 Hz at 4K
    Why is it a variable hz rate at different resolutions? Is that a limitation of the hardware then?

    It doesn't say it's 3d but if it were does 30hz at 4k mean it can't do 3d at 4k? (true 3d that is not anaglyph which obviously can be done on any set).

    It's my understanding it has to be 120hz or higher to do 3d - either active or passive. Is that correct?

    The list price is 699 which isn't bad either. Though I'm not in the market for a new tv yet.
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    Eh, nobody can see the future. But based on how HDTV stuff has been in the past, I suspect if you can wait until Christmas that for similar money or maybe somewhat less you can get an even better 4k HDTV and there will be more content available, although I remain skeptical at present about how much content is really going to be out there. But we shall see.
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  5. Member yoda313's Avatar
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    I heard the other day that netflix is already offering 4k material.

    And there is youtube.

    Sony is apparently the only one that has the widest 4k library on its sony unlimited network.
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  6. i don't get it. except the greed part.

    vcd wasn't enough, so it went dvd, then that wasn't enough, and went bluray. now that isn't enough, so its going 4k ?

    so its just more pixels, right ? same colorspace 709 or will they change that too ? same sampling, same connections, same encryption, everything except more pixels, right ? maybe same distribution format, h264 or maybe they will use h264 for prelimiary (test) leases, then go h265 or some other format or keep same and include h265. oh, and lets not forget, same new cheat-job, like they did with HD sets when they said hd but was actuall a downsampled or downscaled 720p or an aspect ratio thing and less pixels but still called hd. my point being, what new cheat-job will they employ on us with these newer sets that will (are) hitting the market. i saw a demo at bestbuy. the sales rep was showing the difference between 1080p and 4k on their newest 50 or 60 inch screen. he was showing a spiderman 4k sample. honestly, i couldn't see the difference. plus, he would only swap the source via remote. no side-by-side views. i argued with the guy that i could not see the difference because of the lack of mentioned side views.

    what standards will change or improve in this 4k presentation ? i didn't see anything in the glossary here. maybe we should add one. anyway.

    so whats next after 4k ? 8k ? 16K ? ...

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  7. Originally Posted by yoda313 View Post
    It doesn't say it's 3d but if it were does 30hz at 4k mean it can't do 3d at 4k? (true 3d that is not anaglyph which obviously can be done on any set).

    It's my understanding it has to be 120hz or higher to do 3d - either active or passive.
    30 Hz @ 4K appears to be the input limit. It's 120 Hz at the LCD panel. So it could do 3D -- side-by-side, over-under, or interlaced. Or at lower resolutions.
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  8. Originally Posted by vhelp View Post
    so its just more pixels, right ? same colorspace 709 or will they change that too ?
    New colorspace. http://nofilmschool.com/2013/07/4k-uhd-color-space-gamut-frame-rate/

    Only last night I found myself wishing the grain in the movie I was watching could be more detailed grain, and the noise slightly more detailed noise, and I'm sure the compression artefacts in the free to air TV where I am will look great upscaled to 4K.
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    VIZIO Ultra HD Smart TV

    VIZIO Announces Pricing For Ultra HD Smart TV
    50' (P502ui-B1) $999.99 (MSRP)
    55' (P552ui-B2) $1,399.99 (MSRP)
    60' (P602ui-B3) $1,799.99 (MSRP)
    65' (P652ui-B2) $2,199.99 (MSRP)
    70' (P702ui-B3) $2,599.99 (MSRP)
    http://www.vizio.com/

    (This topic about prices 4k?)
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  10. for clarity sake, what is the correct term to use ? 4K or Ultra HD ?

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    Originally Posted by vhelp View Post
    i don't get it. except the greed part.
    you don't get it? really?

    as i mentioned this past christmas i bought myself a 41" 1080p 60hz tv to replace my 720p 32" tv. both tv's were/are setup the same way, FIOS is used on both tv's (which broadcasts at 1080i) and the input on both tv's was set to accept only 1080i.

    watching the exact same movie being broadcast, namely the lord of the rings (any of them) or any football game or any of the shows i normally watch, the difference between the two is like night and day.

    now obviously as you go up in pixels you need more bit rate and/or an improved compression standard and yes if you're starting from a 1080p source and try to upsample to 4k then you probably won't see much of a difference.

    but here's the thing, technically this tv, and all tv's like it on the market, are not real 4k tv's, they are technically 2160p or 4k UHD, real 4k refers to DCI 4k, a professional format that only allows for jpeg2000 compression with uncompressed pcm audio.

    i think once youtube switches completely to vp9 and starts offering uhd content, as will vimeo and as was already mentioned netflix is already streaming uhd content, people will see the benefit of uhd.
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    Originally Posted by vhelp View Post
    for clarity sake, what is the correct term to use ? 4K or Ultra HD ?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_high_definition_television

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution

    technically 4k tv's are 4k UHD, true 4k is DCI 4k.
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  13. ok then. after all, my maximum viewing is from a 1440x900 display and poor build-in graphics card, nvidia geforce 6100 nforce 405. i need to upgrade soon.

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    Originally Posted by yoda313 View Post
    I heard the other day that netflix is already offering 4k material.
    They are. I found a film the other day in the format available for streaming, but I have nothing capable of displaying it. The questions are "How much is there available?" and "Is what they have of interest to me?" I am a Netflix subscriber and I don't stream all that much because I am always complaining that films I would like to stream are unavailable that way. Perhaps for some people the 4k offerings are fantastic. We shall see.

    There are already indications that some in the industry want to go above 4k on TVs, which is a sure sign that nobody knows what the hell they are doing with the format right now.
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    Originally Posted by vhelp View Post
    i don't get it. except the greed part.

    vcd wasn't enough, so it went dvd, then that wasn't enough, and went bluray. now that isn't enough, so its going 4k ?

    so its just more pixels, right ? same colorspace 709 or will they change that too ? same sampling, same connections, same encryption, everything except more pixels, right ? maybe same distribution format, h264 or maybe they will use h264 for prelimiary (test) leases, then go h265 or some other format or keep same and include h265. oh, and lets not forget, same new cheat-job, like they did with HD sets when they said hd but was actuall a downsampled or downscaled 720p or an aspect ratio thing and less pixels but still called hd. my point being, what new cheat-job will they employ on us with these newer sets that will (are) hitting the market. i saw a demo at bestbuy. the sales rep was showing the difference between 1080p and 4k on their newest 50 or 60 inch screen. he was showing a spiderman 4k sample. honestly, i couldn't see the difference. plus, he would only swap the source via remote. no side-by-side views. i argued with the guy that i could not see the difference because of the lack of mentioned side views.

    what standards will change or improve in this 4k presentation ? i didn't see anything in the glossary here. maybe we should add one. anyway.

    so whats next after 4k ? 8k ? 16K ? ...
    4K and above resolutions will provide the most benefit for very large screens, like in a home theater, or PC monitors.

    You could have seen a difference if you were close enough to the screen, assuming you have normal vision. "Close enough" changes with the size of the TV.

    I can definitely see a difference between a small 720p TV and a small 1080p TV sitting two feet away from the screen using them as monitors. When watching TV and sitting 6 feet from the same screens, the difference is no longer apparent.
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  16. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    You could have seen a difference if you were close enough to the screen, assuming you have normal vision. "Close enough" changes with the size of the TV.

    I can definitely see a difference between a small 720p TV and a small 1080p TV sitting two feet away from the screen using them as monitors. When watching TV and sitting 6 feet from the same screens, the difference is no longer apparent.
    Yes, with a 4K TV you have to be viewing from ~within the diagonal size of the TV to see a significant difference in resolution. So from a typical 8 foot viewing distance you'll need a 96" TV.
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  17. Member yoda313's Avatar
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    I wonder how it would look upscaling a dvd to 4k???

    Is that going to be too much of a stretch? If that was a pun it was unintentional....

    Does that almost make bluray a necessity for 4k to make it worthwhile? Even though bluray obviously isn't 4k it's a larger frame to start with then dvd.

    That would suck though for stuff that hasn't been upgraded to hd yet. Or worse yet first gen bluray prints that weren't remastered, ie grainy.
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  18. Member fritzi93's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    You could have seen a difference if you were close enough to the screen, assuming you have normal vision. "Close enough" changes with the size of the TV.

    I can definitely see a difference between a small 720p TV and a small 1080p TV sitting two feet away from the screen using them as monitors. When watching TV and sitting 6 feet from the same screens, the difference is no longer apparent.
    Yes, with a 4K TV you have to be viewing from ~within the diagonal size of the TV to see a significant difference in resolution. So from a typical 8 foot viewing distance you'll need a 96" TV.
    That agrees well enough with the Carlton Bale chart, based on (according to Bale), THX and SMPTE standards and Visual Acuity standards:

    Click image for larger version

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    It's funny, at AVS the Carlton Bale chart is now decidedly declasse. Don't dare mention it if you would rather not start an argument. They've just about convinced themselves that a 4K TV is *easily* distinguishable from a 1080p set at "normal" viewing distances (i.e. greater than 2x diagonal size).
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    Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post
    It's funny, at AVS the Carlton Bale chart is now decidedly declasse. Don't dare mention it if you would rather not start an argument. They've just about convinced themselves that a 4K TV is *easily* distinguishable from a 1080p set at "normal" viewing distances (i.e. greater than 2x diagonal size).
    i would tend to agree, that chart was made by someone that desperately needed cataract surgery.

    even on a 21" computer monitor, at 20 feet away i can tell the difference between SD and HD content, according to that chart unless the tv is right up against your nose you won't see the benefits of 4k.

    maybe if you're legally blind.
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    it looks like the blu-ray spec is going to be extended to include 4k UHD:

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/blu-ray-4k-uhd-blu-ray-optical-media,25744.html
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  21. Member fritzi93's Avatar
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    Well, the difference between 480i/p and 720p is huge; the difference between 720p and 1080p, less so. Sure, I can agree with your example, and I have 20/15, 20/20 vision, last time it was checked.

    In the middle of the chart I think it's more debatable. On my (calibrated) Sharp 70" at VD of 8 feet, I can easily distinguish between 720p and 1080p. If I back up past 12 feet or so, it gets a lot harder.

    As to 1080p versus 4K (and viewing distances), I dunno. There are many 4K proponents at AVS, and the long-time members are no fools. I just wonder if some aren't exaggerating the difference a little because they're predisposed to believe. But I notice that even those who are a little skeptical have stopped defending the Carlton Bale chart.
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  22. Originally Posted by deadrats View Post
    as i mentioned this past christmas i bought myself a 41" 1080p 60hz tv to replace my 720p 32" tv. both tv's were/are setup the same way, FIOS is used on both tv's (which broadcasts at 1080i) and the input on both tv's was set to accept only 1080i.

    watching the exact same movie being broadcast, namely the lord of the rings (any of them) or any football game or any of the shows i normally watch, the difference between the two is like night and day.
    That really doesn't sound like comparing apples with apples to me.
    When I bought my 51" 1080p Plasma, there were several Samsung Plasma TVs together on display. Right next to the 1080p model I bought was a 720p model (same size screen). I had to get quite close to tell them apart. Once close enough (ie a couple of feet) I could start to see individual pixels on the 720p model (I think it's referred to as the "fly screen effect") whereas I pretty much had to put my nose on the screen to see it with the 1080p model. Back at something more like normal viewing distance, I'm not sure I could have picked which was which. At least not when it came to the video being displayed, although for some reason I can't recall what it was.
    I don't regret buying the 1080p model, because now I can see just how much detail I'm not losing through resizing to 720p (by comparing resizing before encoding), but at the time the 1080p model was on sale so there wasn't much of a price difference, and it's also a 3D TV.

    Even when you view various 1080p LCD TVs of the same screen size side by side in a store (or Plasma) it's fairly obvious not all 1080p TVs are created equally. If you're comparing 1080i video, it's possible the de-interlacing is different too and the new TV no doubt applies different processing.

    To compare 1080p with 720p, in respect to picture detail, try the screenshots in the attached zip file. You might be surprised. Don't take these as definitive examples, they just happened to be the only two 1080p videos I had sitting on my hard drive. I picked a random frame in each video and saved it as a bitmap, opened that with Irfanview and resized it to 720p. I then resized the 720p bitmap back to 1080p. I applied some very mild sharpening each time I resized (because Irfanview's resizing isn't as sharp as the resizing generally used when upscaling or encoding). Finally I converted each bitmap to a maximum quality jpg.
    If you can see a major loss of detail due to the resizing to 720p and back which I can't, please let me know. Or try the same thing for yourself. Sometimes there will be a noticeable difference when comparing resolutions one frame at a time, but even then, when watching the 720p version in the usual manner..... not so much. I compare 720p and 1080p in a similar way before pretty much every encode, only I do it using avisynth scripts, and it's why I don't get it when people talk about how much better 1080p is. It can be, and sometimes is it, but I'm still sceptical as to how much more actual picture detail we'll get from 4k. Maybe eventually if everything is "filmed" with 4k digital cameras, but till then the 4k placebo effect will probably provide most of it.
    Although apparently the new color standard can reproduce a wider range of colors than BT.709, and maybe more accurately, but if that does improve the picture quality I've no doubt the higher resolution will probably get the credit for it most of the time.

    Originally Posted by deadrats View Post
    even on a 21" computer monitor, at 20 feet away i can tell the difference between SD and HD content
    So can I if one's quality HD video and the other's an Xvid AVI. Maybe even using my 21" CRT PC monitor. The Xvid encoder probably robs you of more detail than the resizing. I've compared video after it's been resized to SD, before and after it's re-encoded, and it's obvious the unencoded version looks much better/sharper. When using the x264 encoder there's not so much of a difference.
    I've resized 720p to 704x396, encoded it with the x264 encoder and compared the two. Not with a 21" computer monitor while standing 20 feet away, but with a 51" plasma while standing closer, and if you sharpen a tiny bit while using the right resizer and a high x264 quality setting..... I'm not saying the 704x396 version looks as good, but the difference doesn't need to be as massive as you've described. Twenty feet away from even a 51" plasma it can be somewhat on the "minor' side. In fact from 20 feet away I wonder if you'd even see a difference.
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  23. Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post
    As to 1080p versus 4K (and viewing distances), I dunno. There are many 4K proponents at AVS, and the long-time members are no fools. I just wonder if some aren't exaggerating the difference a little because they're predisposed to believe. But I notice that even those who are a little skeptical have stopped defending the Carlton Bale chart.
    It's probably much like higher sampling rates and bitdepths for audio. I can't seem to find the link at the moment, but a while ago I read about a UK audiophile organisation that conducted comparisons between 16bit, 44.1k and 24bit, 96k. They invited audiophiles to provide their own examples of "better sounding 24bit, 96k audio", which they resampled at 16bit, 44.1k. The original audio and the resampled versions were used for ABX testing. Nobody could reliably pick which was which.
    To explain things like that, I've read criticisms of ABX testing along the lines of the ABX test itself skewing the results of an ABX test, although I could never manage to understand the logic behind that argument.
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    I'm in the market for an additional large tv likely 3D but since 4k is so close I will wait to see what the new BD standard might bring in terms of a possible enhanced new connector and/or protection scheme on the new discs.

    Watching online material won't mean much if it's low bitrate material but at the same time many ISP are not cheap with low mb monthly maximums so d/l large filesize 4k samples would quickly eat up the allowance. Mine offers what they call set overage fees but they cost a lot and they mean "reasonable overage" it's not really open ended so if watching a lot of Netflix 4k movies for example it would quickly put a user on the undesired list and as rumour has it possibly subject to being deliberately bottle necked. Don't know if it's true or not but I've seen people complain that they were moved to a throttled service IP block

    I'm convinced that discs are still the way to go for me but it will mean buying a new player and probably re-buying some (but not all) of my special collectables many of which I already bought on VHS, DVD and Blu-ray.
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    Originally Posted by deadrats View Post
    it looks like the blu-ray spec is going to be extended to include 4k UHD:

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/blu-ray-4k-uhd-blu-ray-optical-media,25744.html
    Ok stupid question time - does that mean you could buy a 4k bd and play it on a normal bd player?

    Will it be backwards compatible in otherwords? If you want to future proof your collection then buying a 4k disc would make sense if it can play on your regular bluray players.
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  26. Member TreeTops's Avatar
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    Methinks you will have to buy new bluray players for 4K.
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  27. Member yoda313's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TreeTops View Post
    Methinks you will have to buy new bluray players for 4K.
    Well I'm not thinking about having a "standard" bluray player playing a 4k bd in 4k.

    I mean a standard bluray player playing the 4k bd as if it was a normal 1080p bluray.

    Would that be in the offering? Or is that expecting too much?

    Edit - maybe they could have a 1080p "core" like they do for dtsma and dolby truehd?
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  28. Member fritzi93's Avatar
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    No, UHD (4K) will be encoded as HEVC (H.265). Assuming the optical format comes to fruition, you'd likely see boxed sets with separate 1080p and UHD discs. Like 3D boxed sets now with 3D and 2D versions, and often DVD as well.
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  29. Member yoda313's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by friztiz93
    UHD (4K) will be encoded as HEVC (H.265).
    Ok that makes it completely different then.

    Originally Posted by fritzi93
    you'd likely see boxed sets with separate 1080p and UHD discs. Like 3D boxed sets now with 3D and 2D versions, and often DVD as well.
    I could live with that.

    Though it could get a bit ridiculous for some things with triple wide bluray cases for mega sets. It would be a bit nuts to have three discs for the same movie and none of them having bonuses - ie a 3d disc, a hd 2d disc and a 4k disc. (or rather the extra discs not being solely for bonuses)

    But hey as long the prices aren't much more inflated than 3d is right now I suppose I could live with it.

    So long as they don't PHASE OUT 1080p and force higher priced 4k discs on the public than I could deal with it.
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  30. Originally Posted by yoda313 View Post
    Originally Posted by friztiz93
    UHD (4K) will be encoded as HEVC (H.265).
    Ok that makes it completely different then.
    Even if they are h.264 encoded there's no reason to believe existing players have the power or memory required to handle the larger frame. If discs come out that are compatible with older players it will be because they include a 1080p video as well as the 4K video.
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