Thinking about dipping my toes into Blu...

[Xylob the Destroyer]

Hi all,

Been a long time since I was a regular here... stumbled across this place when it was vcdhelp.com (that's what my bookmark still is!) and it was an invaluable resource for me when I was learning how to make VCDs and later backing-up and authoring DVDs.
Back in "the good old days" you had to use tools with very little GUI and you had to know how to really dig into the IFOs etc in order to make a copy of a DVD or be really brave and try to author one of your own - but the tools got better and better all the time until it eventually got to the point where all you needed to know was how to use a mouse.
Unfortunately, I'm a "use it or lose it" kinda guy - getting all those nifty tools that do all the thinking for you has pushed any/all previously learned skills and knowledge right out of my brain in favor of worthless crap like "Friends" trivia and how to *gasp* do my job...

Now I'm thinking about getting into Blu as the price of both burners and media has gotten to the point that I consider reasonable.
My primary desire is back-ups: main movie-only back-ups of Blu-Ray discs (I just don't care about special features &/or the 30 different audio and subtitle options) and multiple DVD to Blu-Ray back-ups.
With the DVDs, what I'm looking for is putting multiple discs onto one BD at full DVD quality audio and video. Examples would be a 2 or 3 movie 'series' (Mad Max, The Road Warrior, Thunderdome) or a 3 disc season set of a TV show.
Secondary desire: if possible, multiple movie Blu-Ray to Blu-Ray back-up. For example RED and RED 2 on one multi-layer disc.

Currently I use DVDShrink, DVD Decrypter, and ImgBurn and those 3 cover all my DVD needs.
I'm looking for similar tools for Blu.
From what I've seen so far, ImgBurn already has me covered on one front, and BD Rebuilder has a feature-set similar to DVDShrink.

I've also gleaned that an item of key importance is your burner must include binding nonce generation capability.
My only Blu-Ray player is an old-school CECHAxx PS3 (yup, the "big" one that plays PlayStation2 games).
My system specs are updated here on my profile.

What I'm looking for at this point is information - not every little detail, but pointers on good places that I can go to find out what I need.
I'd like to learn from your own mistakes and experiences if possible.
Is multi-layer media really worth the time, money, and effort? The burners are certainly pricey, and the media hasn't come down in price like the single-layer has. Both burners and media seem to be only 'kinda sorta' reliable... multi-layer seems problematic and maybe more trouble that it's worth.
Does my rig have what it takes? Do I need more RAM? Faster CPU?
Which burner? I've been eye-balling the LG WH16NS40, LG WH14NS40, and Pioneer BDR-208D but can't find for certain anywhere that these can do binding nonce generation.
Will I need anything special (software, drive, media) to make sure my discs will work on my PS3?
What am I not even taking into consideration because I've been doing DVD forever and the intricacies/nuances of Blu are a whole new realm?
I feel like there's something big that I'm missing - it can't just be as easy as buying a burner and some discs, installing a few programs, and away you go, can it? (getting into DVD sure as hell wasn't!).

TIA!

[Kerry56]

Copying Blu-ray is easier than you might think. The biggest obstacle is decryption, which is an ever changing target for the decryption programs. You need something that stays up to date, which means primarily DVDFab or AnyDVD HD. The only other program that is regularly recommended for Blu-ray decryption is MakeMKV, which can rip to an mkv file or rip the entire disc in Backup mode.

BD Rebuilder can handle most of your needs. For backing up main movie only, this program would be the best choice most of the time. If the movie will fit onto a single layer BD disc without compression, you could use ClownBD instead.

Your computer specs look adequate for this type of work. You will need a lot of room, especially in the output folder for BD Rebuilder, since it places working files and final output in the same area.

BD Rebuilder has recently added the ability to make compilation blu ray, so it can use your dvds in the way you want. It is also possible to do this in MultiAVCHD and make much more elaborate menus. And there is another way of making blu ray discs using several dvds as input. Here is the guide I wrote for that process.

Here is a list of blu ray burners that support binding nonce generation: http://club.myce.com/f116/dvdfab-list-blu-ray-writers-support-cinavia-bdmv-rec-recording-325896/

Regarding media...I don't see the point of buying double layer blu ray unless you are going to make complete backups of commercial movies. The compressed versions on single layer blu ray are excellent in my experience, but some people insist on making perfect, 1:1 copies. You should use good media, which means Panasonic, FTI Falcon (in the US, can be found under the Smart-Blu brand) and Verbatim. Do not use LTH Verbatim, only the regular, inorganic dye Verbatim.

The Pioneer burners are usually seen as the best quality writers, with LG close behind. Most everything else these days is a Lite-on or Lite-on clone.

[Xylob the Destroyer]

...Your computer specs look adequate for this type of work. You will need a lot of room, especially in the output folder for BD Rebuilder, since it places working files and final output in the same area...

A-HA! I knew there was something I wasn't taking into consideration - BDs are large. My C: drive is 1TB SATA, with 800GB free and I've got an IDE drive connected with 150GB free. 800GB should be plenty (I would hope!), but are there any drawbacks from using your OS drive for such large files?

...You should use good media, which means Panasonic, FTI Falcon (in the US, can be found under the Smart-Blu brand) and Verbatim. Do not use LTH Verbatim, only the regular, inorganic dye Verbatim...

Say what now? What does LTH stand for? Anywhere I can go to learn more about the different types of blank media?
I tend to only use Verbatim as it is, does the packaging specifically state "LTH" on it?

Thanks for the very informative reply! I'll definitely be looking into the links you've provided and doing some more digging.
I've visited that myce thread in the past - it seems BH and WH prefixes on LG drive model numbers are important...

[aedipuss]

hehe i think the bh and wh part of the model number refers to black or white bezel.

lth is low to high. a writing strategy that allows cheaper dye to be used. mostly it should be avoided as not all drives can read it.

[usually_quiet]

Imgburn tells me that my Pioneer BDR-208M supports binding nonce generation. It isn't a particularly expensive item now.

I don't rip Blu-Ray discs or DVDs, don't author Blu-Ray discs, and don't own a PS3, so I can't help you there. I just archive my recorded TV as files to BD-R.

[Kerry56]

LTH...low to high. These use organic dyes, similar to those used in recordable dvds. There have been reports of incompatibilities in burners and players and more reports of them not lasting all that well. Some people seem to have good luck with them, but there isn't a good reason to use them other than slightly lower price. I generally advise people to avoid them. LTH discs will be marked on the packaging.

When processing blu ray, I like to rip the movie to the hard drive using AnyDVD HD, and use that as input into BD Rebuilder. I use a second drive as the target for the encoding. This may not speed things up all that much but does help somewhat. It isn't necessary to do this, so if you want to use your C: drive alone, it will work, just not an optimal setup.

[turk690]

Now I'm thinking about getting into Blu as the price of both burners and media has gotten to the point that I consider reasonable.
My primary desire is back-ups: main movie-only back-ups of Blu-Ray discs...

With the appropriate h/w and s/w, tons of info on videohelp.com, you can go ahead and rip and back-up blu-rays galore.
Just bear in mind that some of those original blu-rays will be cinavia-infested, which will carry over to your back-ups, and therefore determine what set-top or s/w player you can use to play them back with successfully.

[usually_quiet]

I guess I was wrong about the Pioneer BDR-208M (AKA BDR-2208) price, which has gone up considerably. The lower sale prices from a few weeks ago were to clear out old stock. The price increased after Pioneer came out with a new BDR-209 series and discontinued the BDR-208 series.

[jman98]

DVD Fab's workaround involving this "binding nonce" stuff is considered by some sources to be a rather poor solution to the problem. I don't claim to be an expert but I have read that some people think that this "solution" can become invalidated in the future by changes made to AACS so caveat emptor.

Currently manufactured BD standalone players should support LTH discs. My personal testing is that the ONLY ones worth buying, if you want to try them, are the Verbatim ones. Taiyo Yuden used to make a great line of BD-R LTH discs that worked in almost all players, but they stopped making them. Then when they restarted making them, the new ones were inferior to the old ones and many players had problems with them. TY usually makes great discs, but their current BD-R LTH discs are not very good at all.

[usually_quiet]

I would say that BD-R LTH discs should be reserved for short-term use. As Kerry56 mentioned there are user reports that LTH media degrades quickly, and there was a formal study conducted in France to test BD longevity where BD LTH media using organic dyes did much worse than BD-R HTL media using inorganic dyes.

...but BD-R media in general may not be great for long-term storage. The only BD media that passed the tests in the French study was Panasonic's. Although it burns perfectly (I use it), Verbatim HTL media didn't fare nearly as well in the study. FTI Falcon/Smartblu BD-R media is supposed to be very good quality, but it wasn't tested.

[redwudz]

This is the method I have used for a couple of years to convert Blu-ray discs to MKV video. I use AnyDVD HD to decrypt, then rip the entire BD to one of my hard drives. I don't like the idea of my BD optical drives running for the several hours it takes for the conversions.


Then I run RipBot 264 on the ripped BD file and convert just the main movie. I use MKV and AC3 640 kbps for the format. I also use two pass encoding so I can set a size. For output size I use 7900 MB. This results in a size where three MKV conversions will fit perfectly onto a Blu-ray disc. The finished MKV is very good quality (For me, anyway.) I transfer the MKV files to my server hard drives for convenient viewing. Then I backup the same file to BD media in case of HDD failure. This way I don't waste encoding time again.


The downside of my encoding settings is that it takes about three hours to process each BD>MKV conversion. And that's with my present 8 core 4Ghz PC. But I just run the conversions overnight and they are ready the next morning.


I use only Verbatim 6X BD-R (In a 25 pack #97457. Rima has them for about $28US or about $ .90 each.)
I burn three MKVs to each disc for backup using ImgBurn and a Pioneer 208 or 203 BD burner. I've done over a hundred burns with the two burners and Verbatim discs and not one failure. I use UDF Rv. 2.50 settings for burning.


The discs play back fine with my desktop BD player or my computers or a WD Live box. For the computers I use Zoom player, VSO player or VLC and they all work very well. I normally play back from my HDD drives.

[Xylob the Destroyer]

Thanks for all the info everybody!
I'll only be playing any discs I burn on the PS3, as I have no interest in watching movies at my desk... but I do have VLC installed for preview etc.

Lots of good info here, and with it being relatively "slow" at work this week and next week I may just be able to make a decision on a burner and some software!

[yoda313]

I'll only be playing any discs I burn on the PS3,

I know its more money and not necessary to your equation but it would be easy to get another bluray player fyi.

Even if you don't get a used one there should be deals aplenty especially this time of year.

Just something to think about.

And if wouldn't have to be a "smart" player or even have apps if its just for watching your backups. Though finding a bluray player that doesn't at least have netflix on it is probably impossible.

And its probably still true as it was when I looked about a year ago - wifi builtin will bump the price a bit. Though that might not matter as much this time of year with all the sales.

But to keep it as cheap as possible don't look at smart players or wifi built in models to keep the price low.

That is if you want another standalone player that is for just playing discs.

[usually_quiet]

I'll only be playing any discs I burn on the PS3,

I know its more money and not necessary to your equation but it would be easy to get another bluray player fyi.

Even if you don't get a used one there should be deals aplenty especially this time of year.

Just something to think about.

And if wouldn't have to be a "smart" player or even have apps if its just for watching your backups. Though finding a bluray player that doesn't at least have netflix on it is probably impossible.

And its probably still true as it was when I looked about a year ago - wifi builtin will bump the price a bit. Though that might not matter as much this time of year with all the sales.

But to keep it as cheap as possible don't look at smart players or wifi built in models to keep the price low.

That is if you want another standalone player that is for just playing discs.

It's just a guess but maybe he prefers using the PS3 because he never installed any of the firmware updates that added Cinavia recognition or DVD Fab's Cinavia bypass method only works on the PS3. (Although a Blu-Ray player would still be better for many movie backups, since not every release is protected by Cinavia.)

To be honest, if I were ripping my purchased movies from discs, and Cinavia started to become a problem, I would switch to creating file-based backups and a media player.

[Xylob the Destroyer]

Never thought of that - I just don't want or need to buy a stand-alone player as there is only one TV in the house with HDMI and the PS3 is already connected to it.
It does have the very latest firmware update.
Are there specific roadblocks to playing burned discs &/or back-ups on a PS3 that I need to be aware of?

[hello_hello]

In my opinion, ripping a Bluray disc in order to create/burn a compliant Bluray video disc is only a tiny step up the redundancy ladder from burning a compliant DVD video disc. I gave up messing around with discs a long time ago, even using them as a backup method. These days I save everything to two different external hard drives (so when one eventually stops working all the files won't disappear with it). If you have the original discs even that's not vital.... you can always rip them again.

I don't know what file types the PS3 supports or which types of audio and video, but for DVDs MakeMKV can rip a movie or episodes to a single MKV containing the original video and audio. Personally I rip/re-author DVDs with DVDShrink (AnyDVD running in the background decrypting if need be) and re-encode with x264 to reduce the file size.
For Bluray I use AnyDVD to decrypt while ripping with MeGUI's HD Streams Extractor. It'll rip the video to a single MKV and the audio/subtitles/chapters etc to individual streams. It'll also convert the audio to another format while it's ripping if you want it to. Once it's done I re-encode the video to reduce the file size (often resizing to 720p), but whether you re-encode or not it's easy enough to combine the extracted streams into a single MP4/MKV.

You can of course burn MP4s/MKVs to disc, but if you only want to rip the movie etc and have no interest in the DVD/Bluray menus, I can't see the point in creating a DVD/Bluray compliant video disc these days.

[usually_quiet]

Are there specific roadblocks to playing burned discs &/or back-ups on a PS3 that I need to be aware of?

You would know better than I what kinds of encoding parameters to use so your PS3 can play the discs. Other than that, there is just Cinavia (for Blu-Ray backups and much less commonly DVD backups), but as I mentioned earlier, there are many releases old and new that don't use it.