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  1. Member
    Join Date: May 2004
    Location: Brazil
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    Today I was reading a Videomaker article on video storage, which has been a serious concern for me when I make the cross away from tape-based video cameras, and one storage media they mention is bluray.

    What I wonder is how reliable they are. Can anyone comment about it? Any brands in particular? Better ways to burn-in BD-R?

    They are usually 25GB in size for single sided discs, and 50Gb for double-sided. As were talking here about video that may be lost forever, storage options have to be well evaluated.
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  2. Member
    Join Date: Jan 2012
    Location: North America
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    You can also add in the quality of the Burner Unit to this mix of questions: some models of some products work better with certain kinds of disk-blanks than others, so "quality of burn" isn't just a "disk-quality alone" issue.

    CDs hold 700Mb (let's just use rounded figures for this example). DVDs use the same 5.25" disk for 4.3Gb of data. BluRay holds 25Gb.

    All in the same dimensions. This means that the laser for each is burning a finer and finer set of data-points. As the fineness and precision-requirements increases, what's the natural likelihood of errors? It goes up, too. So BluRay Disk Manufacturing suffers a much higher standard for production than any predecessor media.

    But there have been bad-burned CDs with their larger-wavelength lasers. So, the quality of the burner vs quality of any disk remains a consideration - not just one technology vs. another.

    Dual layering adds in another level of complexity, because 'authoring' issues - selecting a break-point - has occasionally been a factor, too. So you have Burner Quality, Disk Quality, Burning Software issues AND User Skill issues.

    "Bad Burns" are one thing. I should be able to discover a Bad Burn by an immediate playback, or perhaps tests across a few different players. "Deteriorating Disks" is the real bug-a-boo, where - for whatever reasons - the data-film in the disk can be physically (warped, poor storage) or chemically altered (the petrochemistry of the plastics vs metaloids vs glues vs production methods).

    Despite all the marketing proclamations and 'supporting studies' manufacturers cough up, no test or claim changes the fact that disks in someone's collection can alter over time for any number of reasons.

    Without a superior back-up strategy, the dangers of putting 'all the eggs in one basket' remains in effect. There isn't going to be one perfect solution. Two or three backups will always be more secure than only one, and choosing different media for each alternative seems the wisest choice because there's no telling which Player will be available for sale in 10 years, much less 20 - and lose playback ability and the backups are useless.

    Of course, there's always that nagging fungus, too.
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  3. Member
    Join Date: May 2004
    Location: Brazil
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    Thanks for your comments that spread up the variables... and maybe making me more paranoic!

    I have also had my learning curve on this burning questions, particularly with DVDs, both in SL and DL shape. So I certainly understand what you are talking about.

    The burning program was a big deal, and for DVDs I solely use IMGBurn now. For media I have standardized on Verbatim, particularly for DL types. One issue now is that even Verbatim may have different origins too, so right now I'm not sure what DVD media to pick or which I might get here in Brazil.

    What other large-size media would you suggest to upload video from camera memory sticks?
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  4. Member
    Join Date: Feb 2013
    Location: Toronto, Canada
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    Of course, there's always that nagging fungus, too.
    That's an issue that will plague all media forever.

    For BD use Falcon Pro "Smartblu", Value - Enterprise -etc are a no no, or Verbatim HTL. Back it up on different media. HDD are cheap now a days. Don't burn at warp speeds and IMGBurn is still the burning sw of choice.
    Is he gone?
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  5. Member
    Join Date: Aug 2006
    Location: United States
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    There was a French study regarding BD-R longevity and only Panasonic's BD-R media passed the tests. See http://club.myce.com/f33/french-study-bd-r-archival-329441/
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  6. Member
    Join Date: May 2004
    Location: Brazil
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    Dark storing places, or at least away from direct sunlight are issues too.

    Haven't had any problems with fungus, which in the past had been a problem with tapes.

    Pity we can't get Falcon products in Brazil, and they do not ship that from USA to Brazil. Never found them on eBay shipping from China, where shipping could be less than from the USA.

    IMGBurn can be used to burn BD-R media too?

    Perhaps next year I might buy a BD burner, as media is getting reasonably priced too, though maybe just the ones you mention are a no-no.
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  7. Member
    Join Date: Feb 2013
    Location: Toronto, Canada
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    Looks like Falcon Pro --Smartblue-- is the way to go. Still should use a second backup media.

    Try http://www.blankmedia.ca/default.html Don't know if they ship to Brazil but you can check

    Just checked and they don't,sorry.

    Falcon Pro might be called Smartblue in the US
    Is he gone?
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  8. Member yoda313's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2004
    Location: The Animus
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    [="gonca"]Still should use a second backup media.[/quote]

    Absolutely.

    Harddrives are the way to go (or ssd too but per gb is still pricey compared to platters).

    2tb and up are very reasonable now. Or you can get multiple 500gbs too depending on how large your projects end up being.

    If you want to be super careful buy multiple drives from multiple brands. Spread your risks out on any one drive failing.

    And you could consider online storage for finished projects - like authored dvds/bluray. THough that will take gigs and gigs but offsite storage will be the ultimate backup protection. But you shouldn't rely on any one method of course. And read the fine print on web storage sites of what your rights are for your file retrieval and the like.
    Donatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?
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  9. Member
    Join Date: Aug 2006
    Location: United States
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    Originally Posted by carlmart View Post
    IMGBurn can be used to burn BD-R media too?
    Yes. I use it and it works just as well for BD-R as for DVD and CD.

    Originally Posted by carlmart View Post
    Perhaps next year I might buy a BD burner, as media is getting reasonably priced too, though maybe just the ones you mention are a no-no.
    Pioneer burners are highly recommended. I have a Pioneer BDR-208M burner myself.
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  10. Member
    Join Date: May 2004
    Location: Brazil
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Pioneer burners are highly recommended. I have a Pioneer BDR-208M burner myself.
    What media are you using?

    This may sound atypical to some, but I find optical media more reliable than magnetic one. That's why I prefer DVDs (SL & DL) for storing my film videos.

    Unfortunately film videos are getting larger and can't be put on any DVD. So I'm considering BD media as a logical option.

    But at the same time I'm involved in films of mine, and as I said I will be entering the "memory stick routine". Such routine involves uploading the stick files to a larger holding system, and I wonder what precautions should be taken from then on. E.g.: never using the original storing vehicle on your editing, perhaps, and having several backups.

    Magnetic HDs are certainly an option, probably the most the most affordable now. But I know there are other optical and magnetic large capacity storing options. I'm not sure BD-R is a completely reliable one for first generation backups. By 1st generation I mean those made immediately after uploading the mem sticks.
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  11. Member
    Join Date: Nov 2003
    Location: West Texas
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    I've been using Falcon BD media (Smartblu brand) with no issues. My burners are a Pioneer 207MBK and an older LG, the GGW-H20L.

    Avoid Ritek/Ridata media, as they have proved to be unreliable. I had six of them that went from perfect scans to unreadable in three years. And many others have reported the same type of behavior from that manufacturer.

    But like everyone else in this thread, I'd advise not to use any one type of storage for important data. An external hard drive (or several), dedicated to backups only could be used in addition to optical discs.
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  12. Member
    Join Date: Aug 2006
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    Originally Posted by carlmart View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Pioneer burners are highly recommended. I have a Pioneer BDR-208M burner myself.
    What media are you using?

    This may sound atypical to some, but I find optical media more reliable than magnetic one. That's why I prefer DVDs (SL & DL) for storing my film videos.

    Unfortunately film videos are getting larger and can't be put on any DVD. So I'm considering BD media as a logical option.

    But at the same time I'm involved in films of mine, and as I said I will be entering the "memory stick routine". Such routine involves uploading the stick files to a larger holding system, and I wonder what precautions should be taken from then on. E.g.: never using the original storing vehicle on your editing, perhaps, and having several backups.

    Magnetic HDs are certainly an option, probably the most the most affordable now. But I know there are other optical and magnetic large capacity storing options. I'm not sure BD-R is a completely reliable one for first generation backups. By 1st generation I mean those made immediately after uploading the mem sticks.
    I'm using Verbatim 25GB BD-R (regular, not LTH media). It burns beautifully but fared poorly in the French longevity tests I mentioned. I plan to get the Panasonic 25GB BD-R media that did well in the French study as a Christmas gift to myself.

    Even the best DVD+R DL (Verbatim) does not have as long a lifespan as their single layer DVD-R or DVD+R discs. You should consider using a second form of backup as insurance for dual layer DVD discs.
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  13. Member
    Join Date: Jan 2012
    Location: North America
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    (My comments about Fungus are 99.999% jokes. If the disk is sealed so poorly that spores can actually grow, I'd expect the layers to fall apart in my hand as I lifted the disk from its container.)

    Originally Posted by carlmart View Post
    ...I find optical media more reliable than magnetic one...
    I'd argue this point because of the nature of the data film chemically bonded into petro-chemical plastics and I think this is a formula that creates 'reactivity' eventually.

    But the other point is "How much do I store in one hard-drive as opposed to 100 or 1,000 disks?" Suddenly, one hard drive's ability to lose a massive amount of data makes it a risky proposition, indeed - regardless of the magnetic surface's longer projected life with decades of supporting experience. "Do I want to lose a 100 disks of backup, or lose a few disks intermittently?"

    And the same concerns about "finding a replacement player in 10-20 years" can be leveled at hard-drives. I'd be hard-pressed to find a working computer that used MFM-connectors or ISA slots, although this was available PCs into the '80s ("Compaq 386/33 - fastest PC ever! Now, get three external 300Mb hard drives!! All for the low low price of $23,000!")

    Now, to really add some confusion..

    There are many writings that argue "Some of those earlier BluRay Burners are better than today's latest crop."

    There is the constant drumbeat that "the optical market is dead" so consumers perceive that manufacturers are now aiming to take the money and run: use the cheapest parts and lowest quality because everything is Short Term now.

    I'll read reviews of the latest burners and some writers will say, "The latest Pioneer 208 series is excellent, but I've got the same media that burned better on the 207 and even better on the 206 series." And this has been echoed along other manufacturers, too - and Pioneer has earned a solid reputation as among the best burners.

    So there are market-forces that are making drive-manufacturers use cheaper, less-quality parts. And those same forces hammer at the media-makers, too. "Why bother buying the materials for a 10-25 year lifespan disk? These will all be replaced in 5 years anyway!"

    The fact is - there's a risk in moving in any of these directions. But as the American movie industry has seen for 50-60 years, leaving old film stock on nitrate and spending nothing by making no decisions has a risk, too.
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  14. Member
    Join Date: May 2004
    Location: Brazil
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    No, I'm not thinking of using DVD DLs as backups for my media. If necessary, I might use SL types, but video files are getting larger and larger, so they would rarely fit a DVD SL.

    These Panasonic 25Gb types might serve, even if it's still small compared to mem sticks. Remember most HD cameras are using 32GB or 64Gb types, usually two of them, and cameras like the Blackmagic CC carry SSDs inside, up to 500Gb if I'm not wrong.

    New recording forms in un-compressed RAW shapes, give just up to 20 minutes of RAW video on a 64Gb stick. So you get the picture.

    My problem, as an independent filmmaker, is how to backup those mem cards and go on shooting.

    Now, for my home videos I will continue to burn mkv files in DVD (both SL and DL) and I'm considering BD-Rs too. For now it seems as if the Falcon media is a more affordable option. The question would be how to get it.
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  15. Member
    Join Date: Jan 2012
    Location: North America
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    I think "hard drives" is your answer. Much faster file-transfers. A much higher theoretical life-span that DOES have decades of experience to prove their points. And the price for a 2Gb HDD - Toshiba's for $75 (plus maybe $30 for an external USB3 case). That's a great value.

    If I stay with 2Tb drives as my upper limit, then I have ensured myself of maximum compatibility across all computers I might connect to. Capacities over 2Tb require special drivers, or newest motherboards using 64bit OS's.
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  16. Member
    Join Date: May 2004
    Location: Brazil
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    It certainly is a great value, and quite probably the best option. Redundant backup, say x2 or x3 of the originals should probably be enough.

    As was done in films, you don't store all the negatives, only the assembled ones, in this case the final edit.

    So the master originals can be used on another project.
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