Cinavia removal technique?

[Cienoway]

Your original file is a low-quality MP3. Nobody is interested in that. You claim you are too poor to buy a bluray disk. It is laughable.

And now you lie: you were NOT banned at Doom9. You were NOT suspended at Doom9. You are a simple liar and paranoid.

That original sample was from a long time ago, I admitted that at the time my code was buggy and the method was not polished. My more recent samples are way much better, as seem from links above. You practically removed every post I made at Doom9, which is effectively a ban of my posting priviledge there. Let it be clear, you were trying to protect Verance's corporate interest thus you will remove anything that really talks about the inherent weakness in Cinavia. Pure nonsense like "oh, Cinavia is forever un-breakable" will never be deleted, on the other hand.

I advice people to go find the watermark neutralizer package that the Russian guy posted, and study it. Any one take it seriously? Or no one cares about removing Cinavia any more?

[El Heggunte]

I advice people to go find the watermark neutralizer package that the Russian guy posted, and study it. Any one take it seriously? Or no one cares about removing Cinavia any more?

FWIW, his very-useful plugins for Foobar2000 are both freeware and open-sourced
However we cannot say the same about your "invention".

In fact, so far we only know that it sucks

[Guest34343]

My more recent samples are way much better, as seem from links above.

Your link above still points to a low-quality MP3. Are you delusional or just lying again?

[Cienoway]

My more recent samples are way much better, as seem from links above.

Your link above still points to a low-quality MP3. Are you delusional or just lying again?

The processed file is of the same quality as the original. Are you delusional or what? I already explained that the Cinavia code is Code 1, meaning it was probably recorded by a mic in a movie theatre, thus it can not be of high quality. I only has a small section of that file for fair use. You want high quality, then give me some high quality sample and I can process it.

[Guest34343]

It's our fault that you cannot demonstrate your invention properly. Classical narcissism. You need a reality check, my friend.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/narcissistic-personality-disorder/dLXQzaSiTuI/xMp9f82O_IoJ

[Cienoway]

It's our fault that you cannot demonstrate your invention properly. Classical narcissism. You need a reality check, my friend.

I did demonstrate my invention properly, right in front of an undercover FBI agent and Verance executives. It was demonstrated so well that they decided to execute a search and seized my computer and all that. If it did not work wouldn't they just laugh it off? Do you think I can openly commercialize my idea or just freely release the source code, with the investigation still going on? But I still have the freedom of speech to discuss the general idea and give people hints. I am not going to back off my civil liberty and shut up.

[Guest34343]

I rest my case.

[anon1000]

I did demonstrate my invention properly, right in front of an undercover FBI agent and Verance executives. It was demonstrated so well that they decided to execute a search and seized my computer and all that. If it did not work wouldn't they just laugh it off? Do you think I can openly commercialize my idea or just freely release the source code, with the investigation still going on? But I still have the freedom of speech to discuss the general idea and give people hints. I am not going to back off my civil liberty and shut up.

Why do you keep trolling us? Rather then get to the point…you have decided to circle jerk your audience and, procrastinate out the ass. You say the FBI is after you like in ‘Enemy of the State’. At the end of the day…you did this to your self. Who in their right mind would go to company directly…grandstand …attempt to intimidate a corporation and take them all high ground? Anybody? If you’re going to tell people how to break Cinavia….do it because you are a nice person and not because of resent towards the company. Corporations can terminate as they see fit. They don’t always have to have a reason. It’s their business. Get to the point. Stop wasting our time. Or you will be labeled as a hoax in the coming days. Personally I don’t care about Cinavia it’s a joke since day one. There are tons of ways to bypass Cinavia it’s not even funny.

[fritzi93]

Stop wasting our time. Or you will be labeled as a hoax in the coming days. Personally I don’t care about Cinavia it’s a joke since day one. There are tons of ways to bypass Cinavia it’s not even funny.

Too late about the hoax thing.

This is the wrong target audience. Everyone here knows Cinavia only affects backup discs (of a small number of movies) played on recently manufactured standalone players. Big deal. Yes, there are lots of other ways to play movies.

[Cienoway]

It's not a hoax. See the before and after audio sample and judge by yourself.

losers_orig.mp3 http://www.firedrive.com/file/62AC44298C5BF228
losers_0607a.mp3 http://www.firedrive.com/file/1B293008C53FD6EE

[Noahtuck]

Why don't you just kill yourself with a large rock ?!?!?!

[jagabo]

A little better than your last attempt but I'm still not impressed. The music especially sounds anemic and ratty. Are you using really crappy PC speakers? I prefer the half-tone pitch change method.

[Cienoway]

A little better than your last attempt but I'm still not impressed. The music especially sounds anemic and ratty. Are you using really crappy PC speakers? I prefer the half-tone pitch change method.

Pitch change is no solution, Verance only needs to start to detect Cinavia at changed pitch and you are back to square one.

My method guarantees that there is no solution Verance can get around it. They have to completely abandon current line of watermarking, go back to the drawing board twenty years ago and re-invent something completely different. Oh wait that can not be done either, you can not re-invent something some one else has already invented.

I played the files on a TV through a PS3. Sounds just fine and I don't hear any difference from the original. What is "anemic and ratty"? There is still plenty of room for improvements in my method, and I certainly have not shown the best I can do. I just feel it's good enough so there is no need to improve it any further.

[yoda313]

Ok just curious here - What about using miracast on a tablet and beaming it to a compatible bluray player?

Is the cinavia still recognized in that scenario?

I don't have any cinavia infected files to test with.

I have a nexus 7 tablet and the sony 3d bluray player model BDPS5200 that has miracast.

If you have a cinavia sample file I could test it and see if the player reacts to the cinavia under this scenario.

[Cienoway]

Let me give a little bit color on the "there is no solution Verance can get around it" part. That's because the watermark information is simply gone, not exit any more. Impossible to get back something that's lost forever.

Let's take pitch shift for one example. After the pitch shift, the watermark is still there. It's just not at the usual frequency that Cinavia detects. But there is only so many different ways you can shift a pitch, you either shift it down 5% or up 10% or something else. Knowing how much you shift, and or just exhausting all possible shifts, Cinavia can still be detected. So that's no solution.



Now let's say the watermark is a Rubik Cube. You know what a Rubik Cube looks like. It has six faces with six different colors, and 9 pieces on each face, for a total of 26 pieces. If you scramble it a few steps, the colors are scrambled. Can you recover the original uniform color pattern?

Now if you KNEW precisely how you scrambled it. It's easy, just reverse each precise step you rotated the cube, and it is recovered.

If you didn't know how the cube was scrambled, it's much harder. However each piece contains 1, 2 or 3 of different colors from the 6 possible colors. These colors on each piece provide enough clue (information) that allows you to take certain steps and finally recover the original.

Now, instead of six colors, what you have are digital bits. There are only two bits, 0 and 1. It started with each face having a uniform 0 or 1 bit. The bits on each face shows a regular pattern, like all 1s, all 0s, or 1 and 0 alternating. So that regular patterned bits are Cinavia watermarks. If you see recognizable bit pattern it is a Cinavia watermark. You have a 26 bits Cinavia watermark on a Rubic cube, which is way much simpler than the real Cinavia on BluRay discs. Now scramble it.

How can Verance recover the original Rubik Cube on such case? They don't know how you rotated the cube, thus can not revise your steps. They don't have six colors to provide they information. Each piece has only two possible bits, 1, and 0. And they look just like random bits. They simply do NOT provide enough information to allow a way to recover the original cube. There is zero information. Information is LOST. The watermark has not been erased in the sense that each original bit 1 or 0 marked on the pieces are still there marked on the pieces, the modification to the original audio remains there as the audio remains modified. There is at least some theoretical way of precisely rotating the cube to recover the original watermark pattern. If it is theoretically possible to recover the watermark, then the watermark is still there, not erased. But watermark extraction is to recover the information. There is zero information that can be possibly and practically recovered. So in the information retrieval sense, watermark is erased for good.

Theoretically, the Rubik cube is intact. The watermark is still there. There is a theoretical way of rotating the cube to go back to the original, and the watermark is recovered intact. But practically, it can not be done as there is ZERO information telling you how to recover the original. Theoretically, there is only a limited way you can rotate the cube. You exhaust all possible orientations, and one of them discloses the watermark precisely and intact. Practically it takes an astronomical time to do that. So it can not be done.

This is how Cinavia is defeated for good. No solution possible, just as you cannot recover a Rubik cube marked only with bit 1s and 0s. That is, not even a theoretical solution is possible for Verance. This could well pronounce the end of the entire audio watermark industry as we know it.

Audio watermarking with limited robustness is still possible. Think about Rubik Cube again. How do you watermark a Rubik Cube in a way that you can always recognize now matter how it's rotated. Simple. Just paint all faces with a color that only YOU use, no one else uses. I would call it rotation invariant Rubik Cube. But that is a totally different animal.

[jagabo]

And moving bits and pieces around has made the drummer sound incompetent.

[Cienoway]

And moving bits and pieces around has made the drummer sound incompetent.

The drummer is pretty competent IMHO. More competent than human ears. I can't hear anything incompetent in the drummer. Can you elaborate precisely where the drummer shows incompetence?

[Steve(MS)]

We don't need your stupid analogies, just stick to topic without all the extra bs.

Your new sample sounds remarkably like Ranger's.

[anon1000]

Your new sample sounds remarkably like Ranger's.

I beg to differ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW1ABKq6A0w

Ranger mutilates the audio at all times...all this guys doing is mutilating 40 milliseconds out of every second to render Cinavia undetectable.

[Steve(MS)]

You are referring to the old Ranger method, correct?

Looking at Cineoway's new sample plot spectrum and spectrogram reveals they are both doing the same thing fairly much to the audio.
Heavy EQ cuts on top end and somewhat heavy rolling off the low end.
Then they both are using some form of reverb or simulated reverb to mask cinavia on what is left.

I think if you listened closely to Ranger's newest method and Cineoway's, you can tell they are similar.

Neither one of them is what I would consider high def. or even high fidelity, still lower than FM radio quality.

Progress is good but I am skeptical because this guy has been lying from the start about a lot of things
and personally I wouldn't trust him from that standpoint.
It does cast a shadow on whatever he comes up.
He has been using forums to propagate his image in order to sell a product he claims he alone knows how to defeat
with no quality loss.
He drops out of sight for months then comes back on and starts all over, claiming once again a solution....that he supposed
to have defeated without quality loss months ago.

My estimation is he never worked for verance or any other of that idiotic stuff that supposed to have happened to him.
He just spent a great deal of time and perhaps has finally figured out a method (if he still isn't lying) to defeat cinavia
in order to make a few bucks off it.

He can't prove he worked for verance so neither can we.

[jagabo]

What he is doing was much more obvious in his previous sample. If you zoomed into the waveform you could see simple cuts and pastes. Some parts of the sound were cut out and other parts were duplicated (to keep the same overall running time). His latest example looks the same but he appears to be smoothing the joins -- maybe overlapping and crossfading. The cuts/pastes are obvious in the drum beats (amplified and band pass filtered to highlight the bass drum beats):



You can see that the beats fall at very constant intervals in the original (top) sound track. In the processed (bottom) track the intervals are irregular. It sounds like the drummer can't keep a beat.

[Cienoway]

My estimation is he never worked for verance or any other of that idiotic stuff that supposed to have happened to him.
He just spent a great deal of time and perhaps has finally figured out a method (if he still isn't lying) to defeat cinavia
in order to make a few bucks off it.

He can't prove he worked for verance so neither can we.

It sounds like a fairy tale to you but my entire life is suspended on this meaningless FBI investigation. It's not a joke matter. To prove you can just simply call Verance at 001-(858)-202-2800 and ask if they have a former employee being investigated by FBI for alleged trade secret leak. They will NOT be able to give a definitely NO for an answer, but will say things like no comment or I don't know.

It's ridiculous to claim DVDRanger solution looks similar to mine. I don't have a DVDRanger sample to judge. But publicly he claims to have to spend 3 hours to process each 30 minutes of audio clip. My method works a thousand times faster. There is no comparison.

Audio quality is not my concern. IMP the current method is already so good and totally acceptable to average audience so it is not necessary to polish it further, or release a high quality sample for every one to see. Much higher quality sample can be provided, but also at risk of exposing my own trick and causing me to lose value in my tricks. I am not going to give out anything better.

My Rubik Cube analogy makes perfect sense to any one with above average IQ. I hope it makes sense to Verance. They simply can not believe that Cinavia can be erased without knowing any trade secret information. But that is the truth, Cinavia can be erased blindly using a generic method.

[Cienoway]

What he is doing was much more obvious in his previous sample. If you zoomed into the waveform you could see simple cuts and pastes. Some parts of the sound were cut out and other parts were duplicated (to keep the same overall running time). His latest example looks the same but he appears to be smoothing the joins -- maybe overlapping and crossfading. The cuts/pastes are obvious in the drum beats (amplified and band pass filtered to highlight the bass drum beats):


[Attachment 25609 - Click to enlarge]

You can see that the beats fall at very constant intervals in the original (top) sound track. In the processed (bottom) track the intervals are irregular. It sounds like the drummer can't keep a beat.

Sound so easy. Just cut and paste. Some how nobody succeeded in removing Cinavia in the past 15 years according to Verance and according to folks here. So nobody knows how to cut and paste audio? You are making another fair tale. It is not as easy as you think. People are smarter than you think. You think no one has tried that before?

[jagabo]

Some how nobody succeeded in removing Cinavia in the past 15 years according to Verance and according to folks here.

No, many people have succeeded in removing Cinavia. And most of them sounded like crap. The flaws in your technique are obvious.

[Guest34343]

What happened to your "negotiations" with Slysoft? Did they figure out you are full of shit, or is the FBI investigation holding things up?

[El Heggunte]

................

Audio quality is not my concern. IMP the current method is already so good and totally acceptable to average audience so it is not necessary to polish it further, or release a high quality sample for every one to see. Much higher quality sample can be provided, but also at risk of exposing my own trick and causing me to lose value in my tricks. I am not going to give out anything better.

Which translates as: your presence in a forum like this is rather pointless

[Steve(MS)]

You can see that the beats fall at very constant intervals in the original (top) sound track. In the processed (bottom) track the intervals are irregular. It sounds like the drummer can't keep a beat.

Thanks, I didn't look at the waveform but was studying the graph views and noticed similarity to Ranger's.

I surmise that he is using a method, similar to reverb to further coverup the chops he is doing.
So that is why he cannot provide a better quality...because it would be impossible for him to do so.

He now has the chop and paste and the other method that completely destroys the background.

He is now debunked and not a cinavia master he claimed he was...just a simple in search of a buck.

[Cienoway]

You can see that the beats fall at very constant intervals in the original (top) sound track. In the processed (bottom) track the intervals are irregular. It sounds like the drummer can't keep a beat.

He is now debunked and not a cinavia master he claimed he was...just a simple in search of a buck.

I will let other people judge how good the audio quality is:
http://www.firedrive.com/file/1B293008C53FD6EE

I stand by that it is so good that average audience will not notice anything unusual or abnormal. There is no need for further polishing at this point. But further polishing can be done.

[yoda313]

stand by that it is so good that average audience will not notice anything unusual or abnormal.

I don't usually get involved in flame wars or pointless arguments in threads like this.

However coming to a tech heavy website like this and using a term like "average audience" is very strange. People here are anything but average. I'm not saying they are snobby here but much more demanding then most consumers.

And claiming audio quality is not your concern is a bit ridiculous too. Audio quality is always important.

It's kind of pointless to users here anyway since we can just use a wdtv or some other settop media player that doesn't respect cinevia.

I don't mean to be rude I'm just re-stating what others have said in a different way.

[Cienoway]

stand by that it is so good that average audience will not notice anything unusual or abnormal.

However coming to a tech heavy website like this and using a term like "average audience" is very strange. People here are anything but average. I'm not saying they are snobby here but much more demanding then most consumers.

And claiming audio quality is not your concern is a bit ridiculous too. Audio quality is always important.

It's kind of pointless to users here anyway since we can just use a wdtv or some other settop media player that doesn't respect cinevia.

I thought this thread is about Cinavia removal technique. There are plenty of ways of watching contents with no Cinavia detector present. But such discussion belongs to some where else. Here we talk about removing Cinavia from audio content. My method works and all you picky guys have not presented any alternative that works. Until we have multiple different choices of Cinavia removal method then we can pick and choose which one is better. For now, if you do not have an alternative, then don't complain.

I do encourage people to come up with their own Cinavia removal ideas.