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  1. Member
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    Hi!

    I am back again with a ghosting/frame blending issue for the VH gurus. This is for another restoration project. I was told that my last source was too far gone and I hope to have better luck with this one.

    Last time around Jagabo instructed me to provide a clip using Mpg2cut2, which I have done just below. I think this might be more salvageable than my last attempt. I have my fingers crossed!

    http://files.videohelp.com/u/183506/VTS_01_2.MPG

    I am dying to see this movie look better than this. I have some experience with virtual dub, and very little experience with avisynth. I mostly work in adobe for my video editing/improvement needs. I am here to solicit help of the gurus here, and pay for your help. I would be happy to upload the film in your preferred format, and will pay to learn how to fix this kind of thing (if it is indeed fixable). I am also happy to pay a guru to fix this for me. Please send me a message stating your terms, and lets see if we can get this fixed up. Thank you again for the help. The video Jedi here are strong!

    many thanks,

    hizzy
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  2. Mpeg2Source("VTS_01_2.d2v")
    Yadif(mode=1, order=1)
    SRestore()
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  3. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Mpeg2Source("VTS_01_2.d2v")
    Yadif(mode=1, order=1)
    SRestore()


    Try and do that in anything made by Abobe.
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    Why is this 25 FPS video sized at 704x480? Some history, please. Was the original PAL? NTSC? At any frame rate it's a mess, with dot crawl to boot. I'd just buy the DVD.

    So far:

    Image
    [Attachment 18499 - Click to enlarge]

    Image
    [Attachment 18501 - Click to enlarge]
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 07:09.
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  5. It was made from a PAL source, with field blending. There's nothing unusual about that. Yadif(mode=1).SRestore() restores the original 25 fps progressive frames. Do whatever you want from there.
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    One could make it look, mm, "better". But I don't think the O.P. is up to QTGMC + 8 other plugins + VirtualDub + AfterEffects color tweaks (and it's still a mess). He'll still be working this video in the rest home. I'd encode it as PAL progressive 25 FPS but 576 verical -- if I could get that far. The image is frame 8.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 07:09.
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    Jagabo, you are a genius! Where did you learn how to use these programs? This is much better!
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    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    Why is this 25 FPS video sized at 704x480? Some history, please. Was the original PAL? NTSC? At any frame rate it's a mess, with dot crawl to boot. I'd just buy the DVD.

    So far:

    Image
    [Attachment 18499 - Click to enlarge]

    Image
    [Attachment 18501 - Click to enlarge]
    Hi,

    This is a very crappy VHS rip of a rare film sent to me by a friend. There is no other exisiting DVD, sad to say. I have no clue why its sized at 704x480. It's how I got it. Are there any filters to remove dot crawl?
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    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    One could make it look, mm, "better". But I don't think the O.P. is up to QTGMC + 8 other plugins + 6 VirtualDub filters + NeatVideo + After Effects color tweaks (and it's still a mess). He'll still be working this video in the rest home. I'd encode it as PAL progressive 25 FPS but 576 vertical -- if I could get that far. The image is frame 8 of the original -vs- frame 9 of the work so far. And that took all morning. Time for brunch.

    Another learning experience.
    Hi!

    I am eager to try anything. I will run the AVI I make in avisynth through neat video and magic bullet colorista in premiere pro. Do you have any suggestions for the dot crawl? You guys are brilliant!

    Thanks!
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    Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    Jagabo, you are a genius! Where did you learn how to use these programs? This is much better!
    That wasn't jagabo.

    I started with a script similar to his:

    Code:
    MPEG2Source(vidpath+"VTS_01_2.d2v")
    AssumeTFF().QTGMC()
    sRestore()
    Then I extracted the frames of the first scene and used this:

    Code:
    
    # ---- extract the first camera shot + several more frames ---
    Trim(0,75)
    SmoothTweak(hue1=-15,hue2=10)
    Crop(8,0,0,-4)
    ColorYUV(off_y=8, off_v=-10, cont_u=-130)
    SmoothLevels(14,1.0,200,14,235,limiter=0,tvrange=true,smooth=200,dither=100,chroma=200,protect=6)
    SmoothTweak(saturation=1.2)
    AddBorders(8,0,0,4)
    Stab()
    # ---- clean up borders after running Stab() ---
    Crop(12,4,0,-8).AddBorders(8,4,4,8)
    RemoveSpots()
    FreezeFrame(61,61,60)
    LSFmod(defaults="slow")
    GradFun3(thr=1.2,mask=0)
    Dither_convert_yuv_to_rgb(matrix="601",interlaced=false,tv_range=true,cplace="MPEG2",lsb_in=false,output="rgb32")
    
    Followed in VirtualDub by Camcorder Color Denoise, Color Mill, gradation curves (with white balance settings imported from
    After Effects' Color Finesse, but I could have done it with Photoshop Pro). Then secondary gradation curve, the Color Tools histogram, and another run with NeatVideo. Then encoded with TMPGenc Plus 2.5.

    Still not satisfied with the results, but I can't get back to this until later today. Still a little problem to fix around frame 52 and 53, and some other stuff, and needs edge work (it's too fuzzy). I don't know what you could do with it in Premiere except play with the color and levels; IMHO it doesn't convert YUV to RGB properly or encode as well.

    Attachment 1: after the sRestore script, before color, levels, denoise, or anything else.
    Attachment 2: three or four hours later. All this for 61 frames of video.

    The 2nd attachment is just a start. This code and the filters used won't work in other scenes. Each is a different mess altogether. As I said, you'll be in a rest home before you finish.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 07:10.
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    Hi,

    Thanks for your help. Do you prefer QTGMC to Yadif?

    And thanks to both you and Jagabo!

    Hizzy
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  12. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    Thanks for your help. Do you prefer QTGMC to Yadif?
    It's not a question of 'prefer'. There's no question that QTGMC is much the better bobber and deinterlacer. If you've got the time, you should definitely use it. And if your computer isn't current, it'll make you wish you had a newer one.
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    I was going to use Neat video in premiere to remove noise and to fiddle with the sharpening, and then use magic bullet to correct the color/brightness.
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    Thanks for your help. Do you prefer QTGMC to Yadif?
    It's not a question of 'prefer'. There's no question that QTGMC is much the better bobber and deinterlacer. If you've got the time, you should definitely use it. And if your computer isn't current, it'll make you wish you had a newer one.
    I have a top of the line machine, but limited experience in avisynth. Will QTGMC make my brain implode? Thanks
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  15. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    Will QTGMC make my brain implode?
    No, it has a good thread at Doom9 about how to get it going and a download package with all the other needed stuff, and the included doc is one of the best ever written for AviSynth filters.
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    The doom9 thread on QTGMC: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156028 . Post #1 has the download and info. Also has links to spercial mods for use with MT, but if you're new to AVisynth don't go ape over MT just yet. Use plain Avisynth 2.5.8 for starters. Besides, most plugins won't work in MT mode.

    If you're using a 64-bit O.S., use only 32-bit versions of Avisynth and its filters. There are very few 64-bit plugins and they won't run faster in 64-bit anyway.

    That #1 scene still needs work: ragged edges, schizo histogram, a huge headache with blue and green that I don't think will ever look the way it's supposed to. It's one thing to have damaged tape with a malformed magnetic layer due to baking in someone's oven for 7 years, but the colorspace is fouled up and either the tape -player or the recorder (or both) don't seem up to the task. Recording bad tapes directly to lossy DVD is a big mistake to begin with, especially with so-so bitrates around 5K. But if the tape is gone, there's nothing to remedy that. One does what one can.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 07:10.
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  17. I would use Yadif() while you figure out what other filtering you need. Then switch to QTGMC() for the render.
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    I almost always use yadif for initial or quickie checking and testing. When other stuff is properly set up and tweaked (which sometimes takes a while), then the big guns get loaded. But with a good clean source, I get nice results with yadif, and it works well with non-noisy anime. This source, however, is anything but pristine.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 07:10.
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  19. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    I would use Yadif() while you figure out what other filtering you need. Then switch to QTGMC() for the render.
    Yeah, that's what I do too.
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    Hi!

    I just got QTGMC running and I'm rendering with it right now. It is INTENSE! Looks like it will take 5 hours on the slowest setting. I don't mind, lol. I'll use my laptop in the meantime. I am happy the ghosting is gone. After then render, I'm going to pop this into premiere pro to remove noise and fix up the color, but I am curious about the virtualdub plugins mentioned by sanlyn.

    Thanks again!
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    Is it possible to create a D2V file with audio? This might a stupid question, but once I get the video converted and fixed, won't the run time be different than the audio? If I am not mistaken, the video I uploaded was NTSC, but it is now PAL. AviSynth is working with the video, and will produce a PAL sequence. What will happen to the audio track that was demuxed by DGindex? Sorry if I am being obtuse.

    Thanks!
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  22. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    Is it possible to create a D2V file with audio?
    No. The D2V file is only an index file (it's plain text, you can view it with Notepad). The video frames are taken from the original MPG file when you use the D2V file in a script.

    Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    This might a stupid question, but once I get the video converted and fixed, won't the run time be different than the audio?
    No. The PAL video was converted to NTSC in such a way so as not to change the running time. You are converting back in a way that also doesn't change the running time.

    Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    What will happen to the audio track that was demuxed by DGindex?
    The audio will still be in sync.
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    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    There is no other exisiting DVD, sad to say. I have no clue why its sized at 704x480. It's how I got it. Are there any filters to remove dot crawl?
    704x480 is a valid encoded frame size for NTSC DVD 29.97 FPS -- but not for PAL 25 FPS. PAL would be 704x576. The m2v I submitted is PAL 720x576, 25 fps progressive. What is your desired final output -- NTSC or PAL? It's a tiny clip anywy, easy to fix for NTSC.

    All dot crawl filters are more or less (usually more) destructive. There are also dot crawl removal methods -- they are slow running and look a little weird when you see the code, and some methods use masking. Dot crawl remains in the m2v I posted. Annoying, but not so much that I would use more filters. There is such a thing as over-filtering.

    Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    I just got QTGMC running and I'm rendering with it right now. It is INTENSE! Looks like it will take 5 hours on the slowest setting. I don't mind, lol. I'll use my laptop in the meantime. I am happy the ghosting is gone. After then render, I'm going to pop this into premiere pro to remove noise and fix up the color, but I am curious about the virtualdub plugins mentioned by sanlyn.
    There was no "ghosting'. Those were blend and combing artifacts. It's the combination of QTGMC and sRestore() that gets rid of them. Neither of those filters does anything for "ghosting".

    You might find it difficult to fix the color with Colorista. Curves would be more effective. In any case, work with an RGB histogram and a pixel sampler to avoid total hysteria.

    The VirtualDub filters I mentioned, other than NeatVideo (which was applied last, in a separate run, and with very low settings):

    Camcorder Color Denoise (aka "ccd"):http://www.infognition.com/cgi/getfilter?id=220 . ccd's download has two versions. Use the "SSE2" version. Don't use both.

    ColorMill (like Colorista, but uses sliders instead of wheels): http://fdump.narod.ru/rgb.htm

    Gradation curves (as in Photoshop and Premiere Pro): http://members.chello.at/nagiller/vdub/

    CSAMP.EXE: free standalone desktop pixel reader (for VirtualDub and everything else):http://www.netreach.net/~gavin/gavsfreeware/csamp.htm

    TrevLac's ColorTools: histogram, vectorscope, and waveform monitor. Stick with the histogram (similar to Adobe's). The filter is attached as a .zip, below.

    With Vista and later, you might have to run VDub and filters in "Windows XP SvcPak 3" compatibility mode. Microsoft doesn't like it when you don't use their own hideous video software to make equally hideous videos.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 07:11.
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    704x480 is a valid encoded frame size for NTSC DVD 29.97 FPS -- but not for PAL 25 FPS. PAL would be 704x576. The m2v I submitted is PAL 720x576, 25 fps progressive. What is your desired final output -- NTSC or PAL? It's a tiny clip anywy, easy to fix for NTSC.
    Hi!

    I would like for the final output to be NTSC, if possible, but I don't have a preference really. How would you suggest I go about getting the frame size right? I have made a lagarith AVI of the movie, ready to bring into Premiere. Do I need to re-encode the movie in Avisynth again? Right now, its at 25 fps progressive. Sorry again for being obtuse, but how does the frame size being different effect the dvd?

    And I just want to add that QTGMC is INCREDIBLE! It takes a while, but it is simply amazing!!!!

    Thank you!

    hizzy
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  25. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    Right now, its at 25 fps progressive.
    You can keep it at 25fps, encode for 25fps (perhaps requiring disabling any DVD template in your encoder) and applying DGPulldown for 25->29.97fps when done to make it NTSC DVD compliant. That way the audio can be used as-is.

    Me, if film, I always slow it to 23.976fps for NTSC DVD and slow the audio as well.
    How would you suggest I go about getting the frame size right?
    Meaning what? That you want it 720x480? If so, add black to the sides:

    AddBorders(8,0,8,0)
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    Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    I would like for the final output to be NTSC, if possible, but I don't have a preference really. How would you suggest I go about getting the frame size right? I have made a lagarith AVI of the movie, ready to bring into Premiere. Do I need to re-encode the movie in Avisynth again? Right now, its at 25 fps progressive. Sorry again for being obtuse, but how does the frame size being different effect the dvd?
    Disc players expect video to be encoded according to defined standards so they can properly interpret aspect ratios, audio, colors, etc. BTW, a slight correction: you didn't encode the VOB in Avisynth, you actually de-coded it from VOB.

    Make it NTSC. The movie has already been through enough grief going from PAL to NTSC earlier. Some encoders resize for you. My TMPGenc encoder resized for PAL, but some encoders don't. I hear that motion looks smoother on TV at NTSC speeds than PAL -- that's what I've read, anyway, and PAL moves smoother if it's interlaced. Here, you already have NTSC 704x480. The less we do to this puppy, the better.

    Last night I did a quickie NTSC encode at 704x480 and posted it with the other two .m2v's posted earlier.

    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Me, if film, I always slow it to 23.976fps for NTSC DVD and slow the audio as well.
    I have sometimes tried that with a few videos but saw little difference. But in this case as I replayed other segments of the sample I kept thinking that it looked speeded up. So I made a copy of the sample with AssumeFPS(), encoded it that way, then used DGpulldown for 23.976->29.972. Voila! Now it doesn't have that quirky, cartoonish silent-movie motion. I think earlier processing likely speeded up for film to PAL.

    But DGPulldown can also flag it for 25->29.972 . Whew! It's a hassle trying to undo all the ways people can destroy a piece of video. But DGpulldown would come later. This is another reason why people process video and audio separately, then join at the end for final assembly or authoring.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 07:11.
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    Hi Guys,

    Well, sanlyn you are right about my encoder re-sizing. Adobe re-sized for PAL. The video looks waaaaaaay better now. QTGMC is brilliant. I have also applied neat video & magic bullet in premiere. It's not perfection, but its not the mess it was before.

    Manono or sanlyn - Sorry for being dense, but would I use DG pulldown after I have made all my corrections in adobe?

    Sanlyn - The VirtualDub filters you posted are very cool. I am playing around with them right now!

    Just to make sure I understand, would PAL have been the original format of the video?

    Thanks again!
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    I'd guess it was PAL VHS resized and otherwise screwed up to get 29.972 FPS NTSC. If you encoded as "MPEG for DVD", you can't use DGdecode. It should be .m2v with no audio. I know it sounds complicated, but the info headers in MPG describe it as program stream, whereas .m2v headers describe it as "elemental stream". Frankly I don't know what the fuss is about, but likely manono or jagabo, etc., can explain it.

    As it is, I've found nothing on any of my PC's that get any sound from your MPG sample. Another oddity is that several MPG editors refused to open the MPG. I can't worry about that anyway, I'm playing with the video only. My first step was revised to make the 25FPS AVI a 23.976 FPS AVI using AssumeFPS(23.976). Many encoders will look at 25 FPS as PAL and force you to treat it that way for MPEG-2 -- because 740x480/25FPS is not valid for MPEG2/DVD. However, both NTSC and PAL at 23.976 will be accepted by a lot of encoders that will add pulldown to bring the rate to 25FPS for PAL or 29.972 for NTSC, assuming the frame sizes are correct. It depends on your encoder. To get an m2v, TMPGenc and HCenc are more flexible.

    There are ways to fool encoders with Avisynth. I worked on an ancient 17.5 FPS tape transfer from 8mm film whose final output was destined for 25FPS PAL. In Avisynth I used AssumeFPS(25) and fed that avs script to HCenc. It gave me a 25FPS m2v that played very fast. Then I opened it with DGPulldown and specified the conversion as "17.5 -> 25". The final output worked perfectly. How that's done with Premiere, I don't know. Premiere users can chime in.

    I'm now working on your sample video at 23.976 FPS NTSC to avoid problems and resizing later. If I ever get anywhere with it I'll encode it with 3:2 pulldown in TMPGenc or HCenc. Or -- I could encode it in either encoder at 23.972 NTSC (both encoders will let me do that, if I specify m2v instead of DVD-compliant output), and add pulldown later with DGPulldown.

    I gave two editions of Premiere Pro a try over the years. I found it too restrictive and overly complicated, and very limited for cleanup and repair. Ended up with After Effects for what I wanted to do except for edit and encoding. There are easier ways to do the latter without Adobe or SONY. But that's up to you.

    Rather than charge through an entire video the first time out -- especially when you're learning something new and don't know what to expect -- it's better to work with a much shorter test sample. I usually work in 5 minute segments and rejoin later. I can keep the work files on an external drive and pull them back in as needed. Since you already have that big AVI that went thru QTGMC, you can pull off a few scenes as AVI and work from there to see how it goes. In my experience, running a single video as one huge chunk invites a nervous breakdown. If you have to change something or learn a better way, you're stuck.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 19th Mar 2014 at 07:11.
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    I am encoding my lagarith AVI in Premiere as NTSC with a frame rate of 29.97. Do you think it will be an abomination? It doesn't look to bad to my eyes.
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  30. Originally Posted by hizzy7 View Post
    I am encoding my lagarith AVI in Premiere as NTSC with a frame rate of 29.97. Do you think it will be an abomination? It doesn't look to bad to my eyes.

    It's a bad idea.

    Premiere will either duplicate (frame blend off) or blend frames (frame blend on) to make up the 29.97 whether you're coming from a 23.976p or 25p timeline sequence setting . The default is "on" so you just reintroduce similar blends that you worked hard to get rid of...

    The "best" options were laid out above: either slow down both video & audio to 23.976 and use soft pulldown flags to get 29.97 , or keep it 25 fps (with same audio), and pulldown flags as well to get 29.97

    Also, encoding wise, 29.97 interlaced (hard telecine) is the worst option, because it less efficient (25% more repeat fields than 23.976, for "nothing", so picture quality is worse - think of it as wasting bitrate)
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