I admit, the more I read, the more confused I'm getting. I am trying to convert my VHS to DVD and either I have the worst DVD player or more likely, its me. After using Roxio convert to capture the VHS in MPEG2 format with 720x480 4:3 format, it plays fine on a computer (with media info stating its 720x480 4:3 but displays in viewer as 640x480 which is confusing) so I used FFMpeg to clean and tweak it to the same dimensions and aspect, then used AVS4YOU to convert to DVD with menus.
When I played the burned DVD on my Blu_ray player (DVD dead ATM), no matter whether I choose standard, fill or overscan, the image always fills the whole screen. After reading that I needed to change the IFO files for Pan & Scan and auto letterboxing, I used IFOEdit to fix and reconverted. Same issue. Even tried without using ffmpeg but the same issue occurs.
This is probably very basic for the experts here but, as I mentioned earlier, the more I read aboutand"... resizing to 768x576 for correct viewing at 4:3 or 1024x576 for 16:9..."
I admit, I'm lost as to why 2.35:1, 1024x 576, etc. Any help would be appreciated as to how I can get the letterboxes to display, which I assume I need for a 4:3 movie on a 16:9 screen. A good site that explains this as well as how or why I might want to convert this to 16:9 and maintain aspect of ???? would be a help also."...720x480 resized to 16:9 and then letterboxed to 2.35:1 to maintain the same
aspect ratio ..."
If this sounds confusing, I admit, I am. Help Please.
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Last edited by Budman1; 8th May 2013 at 18:08. Reason: additional inf
What's confusing? 640x480 is a frame with a 4:3 aspect ratio. If you display it on a 16x9 monitor it will display as 4:3 with side pillars. If you display it on a 4:3 monitor it will fill the screen (well, almost. 4:3 movie sizes actually vary a bit, so some slight bordering will be implemented to fill the complete 4:3 screen without damaging the movie itself. What most people refer to as 4:3 old-format movies weren't really 4:3. Instead of 4:3 (or 1.333333:1, officially), most were 1.35:1, which is slightly wider than 4:3).
DVD has a standard 720x480 encoded frame size (NTSC). There are a few variations (like "half-frame" 352x480). A DVD can be encoded with only two display aspect ratios: 16:9 or 4:3. Those two display ratios are designed to handle everything from old square 16mm film to modern CinemaScope and wide Panavision (2.35:1). The only movies made today that are actually 16:9 are TV movies and TV programs. Most wide screen movies are wider than 16:9, so they will display with a letterbox of various thickness to accommodate the movie frame without distortion or cropping.
As for making originals and graphics to fit those encoded frame sizes and their display aspect ratios....yes, you can go nuts figuring those out, so I consult my Adobe manual or After Effects Help or find a website that tells me what I need to know.
BTW, anything with a "576" vertical dimension is likely to be for PAL, not NTSC.
Last edited by sanlyn; 8th May 2013 at 20:31.Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end. -- Henry David Thoreau
The conversion was all 720x480 4:3 as is DVD standard. The problem is playing on my 16x9 TV it fills the screen without any black pillar bars (but plays correctly on a PC) and some distortion occurs, no matter what setting I choose. As far as I can find out, this TV only has an aspect settings of Standard, Fill and OverScan. Since the Standard and Fill are pretty much the same, with only a slight difference, it appears that the TV always zooms to eliminate Pillar bars and I can find no settings that will change that.
The proportions, now that I look closer, do not appear to be too disproportionate but I may have lost some of the borders from the original video. Could this be the fact that I am forced to play with a Blu-Ray player ATM which I can find no setting to change either.
Manono, your suggestions were something I will delve deeper into, possibly with new, better equipment. Sanlyn, your answer contained a LOT of information and references in such a short response. I envy your concise method of writing and it cleared up much for me.
Your blu-ray player is most likely displaying it as 16:9,check to see if there's a setting for 4:3.I think,therefore i am a hamster.
Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end. -- Henry David Thoreau
Okay, after more research, I'm posting a short video in VOB format ripped from the first one of the DVD. I am also posting an image of Media Player and Virtualdub simultaneously. Virtualdub shows what my TV shows and Media player shows correct??
This is the short video, it is 12mb but resides on GoDaddy so shouldn't take long to download and is only 30 seconds. I ripped directly from the vob so no recoding occurred:
This is Media Info if needed:
Complete name : C:\Users\Bud\Desktop\McLain\McLain Folder\Disc1\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_1.VOB
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 1 024 MiB
Duration : 14mn 36s
Overall bit rate : 9 796 Kbps
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=15
Duration : 14mn 36s
Bit rate : 9 400 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.908
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
Time code source : Group of pictures header
Stream size : 980 MiB (96%)
I changed the Pan & Scan and letter boxing DUE to this problem. My TV shows incorrectly with and without these options. Also VirtualDub and Media Players show differently as well. This is what has originally puzzled me.
Last edited by Budman1; 8th May 2013 at 22:38. Reason: Response to unupdated response
Don't try too hard to understand unless you really want to get into the tech aspects of aspect ratios.
720x480 = standard NTSC dvd
720x576 = standard PAL dvd
in order for the player to display the dvd right there are flags that tell the player which aspect ratio to display it (the movie)at. For PAL if it's 4:3 it'll display the video at 768x576 and in mediainfo it'll still say 720x576, if it's 16:9 it'll display the video at 1024x576 and still in mediainfo say 720x576.
For NTSC if it's 4:3 it'll display the video at 640x480 and in mediainfo still say it's 720x480, if it's 16:9 it'll display the video at 720x405 but in mediainfo still say that it's 720x480. It all has to do with Original aspect ratio and Display aspect ratio.
Anamorphic 16:9 dvd will display the video at 853x480 and still say it's 720x480 in mediainfo. again original aspect ratio and Display aspect ratio. if that helps ? that's what I understand I hope I'm close at least ?
Last edited by Wolfen; 8th May 2013 at 23:22.
Did you try seeing if your blu-ray player is set up properly to play 4:3 720x480 video?Nothing is going to help you if your blu-ray and or tv is not set up right to play 4:3 video,I just played the short clip you uploaded on my blu-ray player and it plays with the proper ratio(black pillars on the sides).I think,therefore i am a hamster.
But you probably know all that. In case it's unclear, do this in VirtualDub:
- With a video open, right-click directly on the image. Not on a menu or other area, but on the image itself.
- On the right-click, you'll get a popup menu.
- On the left of the popup menu are reduce/zoom sizes.
- On the right side of the menu are aspect ratios.
- Scroll down the list of aspect ratios and left click on "4:3 (TV)"
But if you already know that, then let's go to your TV. The three image size controls you mentioned earlier are those found on your TV remote. I'll bet if you point your Tv remote at the TV and click the TV's "Menu", you'll find an icon or menu item, somewhere in the thousands of menus that controls "Screen" or "Display". Therein you'll find controls for controlling overscan on/off or pixel amount, Auto-Full on/off, Auto Letterbox on/off, etc., etc., and 4:3 display defaults, and lots of other stuff.
Or go into your DVD player menu and find something that let's you control the TV display size (4:3, 4:3 Letterbox, 16x9, etc.). Some of these DVD player menus were designed by unemployed comedians who are trying to take out their frustration and rage on average consumers. So rather than TV Display, you might have something like "Output Display" or "Playback Settings" or some other odd title designed to confound you.
SOmewhere on your TV and/or player, you have controls for the way your vids are displayed.
Thanks for the sample. It's 4:3 and it plays that way on everything I throw it at. Or, "it plays that way on everything at which I throw it."
Last edited by sanlyn; 8th May 2013 at 23:31.Our inventions are wont to be pretty toys, which distract our attention from serious things. They are but improved means to an unimproved end. -- Henry David Thoreau
It's one thing for a VOB to be 4:3, which this is, but most (but not all) players get the DAR from the IFOs and not the VOBs. Below is a picture of what it would look like if it were really 16:9, wider than your picture on the left above. Maybe there's some odd picture extension that was added to it. Or maybe it's being played as 1:1 (720x480).
Again, make sure both your DVD player and your TV are set up correctly. I have no idea what AVS4YOU is, but there's at least one other glaring error in that DVD. You managed to encode it as progressive 29.97fps. That's something that should never be done with film sources. In every five-frame cycle there's a duplicate frame..
Last edited by manono; 9th May 2013 at 04:08.
Oops. Manono beat me to it, so I had to change this post. I noticed it when I saw the stuttering motion (watch the guy walking across the room around the table and toward the left when the clip starts). After a while you see the stutter when heads and shoulders move. I got suspicious when I saw the shimmer on the picture frame edges on the back wall. Apparently 50% of the original fields were discarded ? ? Maybe the O.P. still has the tape.
Last edited by sanlyn; 9th May 2013 at 00:06.
Bingo! Thanks to everyone for the assist, especially the information you gave that I was lacking on aspects and their usage. After attacking the remotes and the menus, like everyone told me to, I finally found a setting in the Blu-Ray Player that sets my TV video. It was in Wide 16:9 format and if I set it to 16:9 squeeze it shows correctly.
There was a wealth of information, I think I actually understand, from all who responded. You seem to know this stuff by heart while my head just got fuzzier from trying to absorb all the web site info. Looks like everything is okay and I won't have to "... Throw it at Something..." now, but I was ready to. Not Really LOL.
My only defense in taking so long to find the menu is that my Wife's TV is one our son found. A large flat panel that was a bargain?? and has very few menu items. And our Blu-Ray player is one I was sent to find at 9:00PM when our DVD player broke and the only place open was Wally Market.
Thanks again for the help and great information as always.
One more quick question if I may... When is it necessary to deinterlace? I had previewed it and noticed the interlacing that looked odd during frame by frame examination. I know this is normal but this is not noticed on a TV right? When is it necessary to use a deinterlacing filter?
And don't throw away that tape you made the sample from.
If the original is interlaced, you should have a good reason for deinterlacing. Sometimes they are temporarily deinterlaced for filtering, then reintelaced. There's a proper way to do it -- and some very improper ways. The vid Manono mentioned should not have been deinterlaced. It should have been inverse-telecined if you wanted progressive playback. But with standard DVD there's really no reason for it: your player or TV will deinterlace anyway. Admittedly, Avisynth has deinterlacers that are better than your TV, but it would involve cleaning up and re-encoding the video. Unless you have a ton of time on your hands, it's best to let your players do the walking.
You're right, interlaced/telecined vido does not play in deinterlaced mode on a PC, unless you have a player that will do it for you. If you brought this vid up in VirtualDub, VDub does not deinterlace or remove telecine. On most DVD players or TV, it's difficult to see those effects. However, if you do see those effects on your TV....well, you already know the prescription for that one.
Last edited by sanlyn; 9th May 2013 at 00:18.
Great, got that logged away too, really appreciate the information. Since these DVD's are for my sisters collection of old VHS, guess I better go buy some more dual layer DVDs. The good news is, this is my new, Alienware computer and converting/burning is much faster now, even faster than my XPS 9100 so I'll have time to transcribe all this information for later while it does its thing, just in case, (too many lunches, naps, projects, etc. and I might forget).
Thanks a ton to everyone that responded.
Not sure what's meant there, I was referring to as-yet unprocessed recordings, apparently made with a DVD recorder from tape (? ), not to video reprocessed/deinterlaced later with the AVS Converter software (which I'd suggest should be avoided. There are better, and free, choices). In this case I'd suggest that the original, undecimated, telecined recording would be preferable to the one submitted.
Last edited by sanlyn; 9th May 2013 at 06:59.
Oh, in that case I misunderstood what you were saying. In any event, I'd still never encode hard telecine myself. And if doing more than one or two tapes, and if he cares about quality, I would think it would be in the best interests of the person doing the capturing to learn how to do the whole process better than it was done here.