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  1. Nobody want's to hear random pitch modulation in their movie soundtracks. And the human ear is very sensitive to pitch changes because it's a large part of speech.
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  2. So the question still remains...which solution sounds better: the pitch shift -13 or Cienoways solution:

    http://www.putlocker.com/file/2A4D0EDC91FF4FBE (Pitch shift -13) recent homebrew using Audacity. Turns out he removed his link.
    Last edited by anon1000; 3rd Dec 2013 at 11:03.
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  3. Why would you upload an audio sample as an EXE file?
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  4. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Why would you upload an audio sample as an EXE file?
    This website seems tricky ...click on the bottom right side you will see another link to dl.
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  5. Renegade gll99's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Why would you upload an audio sample as an EXE file?
    You probably know this by now but the site uses the download filename plus the exe extension when you click on their more prominently placed free downloader program. They deliberately make it easy to click on the wrong box when you read quickly.
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  6. Yes, I went back and got the right link. Thanks.

    So a two semitone pitch shift was enough to foil Cinavia? That sounds better than Cienoway's random drop/dup method. Some people won't like that much pitch shift though.
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  7. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    So a two semitone pitch shift was enough to foil Cinavia?
    Yep, it breaks Cinavia. Pitch shift does the trick.
    That sounds better than Cienoway's random drop/dup method.
    The reason he got notoriety is because he hyped it pretty bad…even made claims it won’t hurt the audio. Thus the commotion.
    Some people won't like that much pitch shift though.
    Well for now, it is what it is.
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  8. Originally Posted by anon1000 View Post
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    So a two semitone pitch shift was enough to foil Cinavia?
    Yep, it breaks Cinavia. Pitch shift does the trick.
    If you pitch shift back to normal is Cinavia detected again?
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  9. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by anon1000 View Post
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    So a two semitone pitch shift was enough to foil Cinavia?
    Yep, it breaks Cinavia. Pitch shift does the trick.
    If you pitch shift back to normal is Cinavia detected again?
    Yep.
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  10. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by gll99 View Post
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Why would you upload an audio sample as an EXE file?
    You probably know this by now but the site uses the download filename plus the exe extension when you click on their more prominently placed free downloader program. They deliberately make it easy to click on the wrong box when you read quickly.
    This is a fairly common tactic with some filehost / cyberlocker services. They try to steer you to their proprietary downloader. CNET got blasted by many former users, after switching to a scheme like that for their downloads. I don't know if they still do that, because I immediately shunned them as a download source. There are always plenty of alternatives around that don't pull that shit.

    Downloading any EXE you're not sure of -- particularly for something that is not supposed to be an executable file, and from a site you're not sure of -- opens the door to all sorts of trouble on your system. They have to be assuming we're freaking idiots, or desperate to obtain something. In that situation, always tell them FY, and keep walking.
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  11. There are reports you can use PSN or any movie streaming provider in conjunction with a DVD recorder & a video stabilizer to bypass Cinavia completely. Since these providers don't use Cinavia restrictions. Do you think this would fly? Movies aren't free. This or course is desperate measure for those dealing with Cinavia infested machines.
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  12. Obviously, if you record a source without Cinavia then you'll have a recording without Cinavia.
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  13. Member
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    Ha ha ha.
    Very funny...

    I believe no-one for that kind of sources....
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    So where can I get this pitch changing program or w/e?

    I'm not a computer or audio engineer and I don't know how cinavia works other than creating audio watermarks. It seems like there should be a few easy fixes that wouldn't compromise audio at all.

    The first and easiest option I can think of is to add another inaudible sound over the watermarked areas, therefore corrupting the watermark so it is not recognized. The higher the frequency of the added sound the more it should cover up the watermark.

    The PS3/blu ray players may be set to look for a very specific audio code embedded in other audio, maybe even on a certain channel, so the above method may not work.

    If that's the case it should be relatively easy for a skilled person to look through the audio data and find the frequency/pitch/tone/pattern of the cinavia program Then once they know what to look for, code a program to take that specific audio data out.

    If the above is the case, a good solution for people who choose to actually rip movies is as follows;
    Someone designs and engineers a piece of electronic equipment that blocks out all sounds that are beyond the limits of human hearing (blocking out the cinavia audio watermark). Then this device would go between the computer that the data is being stored on, and the external blu-ray player, acting as a filter.

    Cinavia really does seem pretty solid, other than the options I listed you would have to physically alter your playback device to interfere with the cinavia frequency.

    Best bet is to buy a blu-ray player that doesn't support cinavia while you still can. And even then I can see them creating a system that wont allow their movies to be played on anything that doesn't support cinavia protection.
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    The simplest way: address the detector issues. Those "without detector" play the disks just fine. Those "with", fail.

    But this is still circumventing, not "defeating", not "removing", not "beating".

    Circumventing.
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  16. Originally Posted by codecobalt View Post
    So where can I get this pitch changing program or w/e?
    Use Audacity. Import the MP3 from the original video source by simply demux/extracting the audio from the source video in question...simply go to effects "change pitch" using the slider adjust to the left -13.000. Export & Save to mp3 and done. Use a program to merge audio source back to video using Virtualdub Mod 1.6.0.0 Use Direct Copy for super fast merging.
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  17. Originally Posted by codecobalt View Post
    I'm not a computer or audio engineer and I don't know how cinavia works
    That's pretty obvious.
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    jagabo
    Re: How to remove Cinavia protection?
    Originally Posted by codecobalt
    I'm not a computer or audio engineer and I don't know how cinavia works



    That's pretty obvious.
    My solutions seem pretty reasonable to me. It seems like the simplest way would be to add an inaudible frequency throughout the movie corrupting/distorting the audio watermark. Benefit is there would be no loss in audio quality.

    Only real challenge would be finding the range of frequencies cinavia uses, is it a very high frequency, or low? Assuming they arn't using a single flat tone and instead some sort of inaudible pattern you could just cover it up.
    Last edited by codecobalt; 14th Dec 2013 at 18:24.
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  19. Originally Posted by codecobalt View Post
    I think if the problem of people circumventing cinavia by using a player without a detector persists or grows, cinavia will simply code their movies/discs to not play on anything that doesn't support cinavia protection.
    They already do -- it's called AACS (encryption) and and BD+ (virtual machine obfuscation). See how well that worked out?
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  20. Did you confirm the pitch shift solution?


    Originally Posted by codecobalt View Post
    I think if the problem of people circumventing cinavia by using a player without a detector persists or grows, cinavia will simply code their movies/discs to not play on anything that doesn't support cinavia protection. It'd be pretty simple to do. would pretty much be a small batch file at the beginning of the disc to scan the machine for the necessary software. If its not found, playback immediately stops.
    Common sense would tell you if you use a Cinavia free machine...you won't have this problem.
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    Common sense would tell you if you use a Cinavia free machine...you won't have this problem.
    I don't see how this is common sense. Cinavia would make it so that the discs they protect check to ensure the player has cinavia protection, if it does not have cinavia protection the disc would not play. the player wouldn't matter at all, it would be data on the disc that would determine playback. So the disc would check the hardware for a code or specific software before it begins playback, if the disc is unable to find the code on the machine it doesn't allow further reading of the disc. Similar to how on some DVDs/blu-rays you can't skip past certain parts such as previews or go to the menu, the disc would essentially lock itself.

    So again, it wouldn't matter if the machine was cinavia free, because it wouldnt be the machine or even the audio watermark determining whether the disc is playable or not. It would be opposite of the traditional "hardware checking to see if it can play the media" and the disc/data would be deciding if its playable on that hardware.

    So you download cinavia protected media, either burn it to a dvd/blu-ray or put it on USB, and intermittently the media uses the current form of cinavia to ensure that the hardware responds correctly, if the hardware doesn't respond as expected (muting audio/stopping playback. This check could be done in 1/100th of a second, so quick that the watcher wouldn't even know it happened.) then the media knows that it is being played on a machine that doesn't support Cinavia and stops itself.

    And no I haven't confirmed the pitch shift solution. for the one file I have which also has a bit of cinavia protection I get the error in audacity; "Is an advanced audio coding file. Audacity cannot open this type of file. you need to convert it to a supported audio format.

    Which I could do, but I'm expecting I would experience a lag between audio and video on the finished project.
    Last edited by codecobalt; 14th Dec 2013 at 20:50.
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    Last edited by El Heggunte; 14th Dec 2013 at 21:11. Reason: it's no use
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  23. Originally Posted by codecobalt View Post
    I don't see how this is common sense. Cinavia would make it so that the discs they protect check to ensure the player has cinavia protection...
    Cinavia doesn't control every hardware manufacturer in the world. The Blu-ray/AACS license only requires Cinavia detection on players manufactured in the last few years. Cinavia was not included in the original Blu-ray/AACS license. So older players have no way to detect Cinavia. Cinavia can't force everyone in the world to update their old players. Even if they did (and you can be assured there would be a huge uproar and lawsuits would be flying everywhere) they can't force the manufacturers of non Blu-ray players to detect and enforce Cinavia.

    I'm sorry to be blunt, but your understanding of these issues is so shallow it's laughable. It's like telling a rocket scientist that the best way to build a rocket is to make one that's light, generates lots of thrust, and doesn't explode on the launch pad. That's trivially obvious to them.

    The scientists and engineers who developed Cinavia studied signal processing and stegenography for years. They are likely much smarter than you. They thought of all your simple bypass techniques on day one and developed a system which isn't easily defeated without seriously effecting the audio quality.

    Many people looking to defeat Cinavia are likely much smarter than you too. If it could be defeated by simply "add(ing) another inaudible sound" or "find(ing) the frequency/pitch/tone/pattern" it would have been done long ago. You really think you're the first person to have thought of those attacks?

    Originally Posted by codecobalt View Post
    And no I haven't confirmed the pitch shift solution. for the one file I have which also has a bit of cinavia protection I get the error in audacity; "Is an advanced audio coding file. Audacity cannot open this type of file. you need to convert it to a supported audio format.
    Install the ffmpeg source plugin and Audacity can import the audio directly from just about any media file.

    http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=FAQ:Installation_and_Plug-Ins#How_do_I_...ort_Library.3F
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    Originally Posted by codecobalt View Post
    I don't see how this is common sense. Cinavia would make it so that the discs they protect check to ensure the player has cinavia protection, if it does not have cinavia protection the disc would not play. the player wouldn't matter at all, it would be data on the disc that would determine playback. So the disc would check the hardware for a code or specific software before it begins playback, if the disc is unable to find the code on the machine it doesn't allow further reading of the disc.
    The protection you describe is not Cinavia. Cinavia is a watermark. It is up to the player to check for it. A player that does not have Cinavia implemented will play a Cinavia infected disc just fine. A disc can't "check". A disc is a bunch of 0's and 1's, that is all. It has no computer chip logic to do such a check.

    Originally Posted by codecobalt View Post
    Similar to how on some DVDs/blu-rays you can't skip past certain parts such as previews or go to the menu, the disc would essentially lock itself.
    That is Prohibited User Operations / User Operation Prohibition. It's a one bit flag. It is totally up to the player whether or not to respect the flag. In no way can the disc "lock" itself and override the logic of the player.
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    Again its not about whether the hardware has cinavia. I don't get how you're not understand this i've put it in the simplest terms I can 2 times, and will try to simplify it ever more this 3rd time.

    And keep in mind, this is not the current system, but if copyright infringement continues to be a problem and people are bypassing cinavia by using older hardware that doesn't have the software to detect the Cinavia audio watermark. There are steps Cinavia can take to PREVENT their protected media from playing on hardware that has no cinavia protection.

    So, read closely and maybe even re-read.

    Cinavia currently works by outputting an inaudible sound that tells SUPPORTED hardware to mute/stop the playback. This current method requires the HARDWARE to have specific software installed.

    If Cinavia so chose, they could add to the technology that they already have. Using the current Cinavia (audio watermark), they could do a check to see whether the HARDWARE supports cinavia. If the hardware detects the watermark they know the hardware is an approved device. If the hardware doesn't detect the watermark they know it's "UNSUPPORTED" hardware and the disc wont play on it, as they'll only allow playback on SUPPORTED HARDWARE.

    So basically they'd tell manufacturers, you're going to use our Cinavia protection, or everyone who buys your hardware is going to be pissed off as it won't be able to play any DVD or blu-ray protected by our audio water mark whether they purchased the protected material legally or not.

    Get it? If not you're seriously thick skulled. You seem to think its all hardware dependent when in actuality the protection can be used by hardware, the data itself, or even both.

    And everything electronic is a series of 1's and 0's. The disc would simply need run an audio watermark and if nothing happens it knows the machine doesn't support cinavia and stops playback

    So disc starts and runs a program like this.
    Run Cinavia watermark detection.
    X = cinavia protection supported on this machine
    Y = Cinavia protection not detected
    If X, allow playback
    If Y, stop playback.

    The machine has no control over that.

    Logic really isn't the issue. It's a yes or no question. If X go to this directory, If Y go to another. And ALL players have internal memory and storage, no matter how small.

    The disc wouldn't need to do any computation, it'd write to the players flash memory, the player would do the computing and the disc would act 1 of 2 ways depending on the response. Just like a boot disk, it doesn't do any computing, but gives the hardware a series of simple yes and no questions to answer.

    I've also been talking about the use of cinavia in the future this entire time. If piracy is as costly as they make it seem, it may be very possible in our near future for discs to have the ability to actually compute, especially such small tasks. I bet the technology to put a microchip along with some flash memory in a blu-ray disc already exists, it may even be powered by the high RPM that the discs spin at, not needing an independent power source.
    Last edited by codecobalt; 14th Dec 2013 at 23:11.
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    Originally Posted by codecobalt View Post

    The disc would simply need run an audio watermark and if nothing happens it knows the machine doesn't support cinavia and stops playback

    So disc starts and runs a program like this.
    Run Cinavia watermark detection.
    X = cinavia protection supported on this machine
    Y = Cinavia protection not detected
    If X, allow playback
    If Y, stop playback.

    The machine has no control over that.
    So you are saying a watermark is a computer program that can execute if/else statements without player involvement.


    Originally Posted by codecobalt View Post

    Get it? If not you're seriously thick skulled.
    Yes, I got it. And I like my thick skull, it keeps nonsense like this from penetrating my brain.
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    codecobalt, really you don't know what you are talking about.
    Please study up on this for a nice long time so you will be better informed.
    Your logic is seriously flawed on different counts.

    Hardware equipment or software players without BD license will play cinavia audio with the video all day long and won't break a sweat.
    BD players that are older than 2012 likely will play the infected watermark and doesn't give a shit about cinavia...unless it is one of those brands/models
    that could be updated in order to detect it.
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    codecobalt wrote
    If Cinavia so chose, they could add to the technology that they already have. Using the current Cinavia (audio watermark), they could do a check to see whether the HARDWARE supports cinavia. If the hardware detects the watermark they know the hardware is an approved device. If the hardware doesn't detect the watermark they know it's "UNSUPPORTED" hardware and the disc wont play on it, as they'll only allow playback on SUPPORTED HARDWARE.
    First: Lets suppose this happened and all BD producers bought in to Cinavia protection. It would mean a new category of discs like 3D where you need an approved player to play the discs. So now the new discs would have to be clearly marked or they would get thousands of returns from people who own the millions of older players on whose players the new discs would not play. The returns would be a massive pain for them. Just imagine the lost sales for those who don't see the sense of having to buy a new machine when all their older discs play fine.

    Second: Even if all new BD discs contained some type of java code that would run on load to verify the presence of a Cinavia detection routine on the player (doubtful it could do that but lets just suppose) how would they know that the copied disc had Cinavia in the 1st place if somehow it was removed. One would think that if you could circumvent Cinavia you could also bypass the checking routine too. If new players only accepted Cinavia discs and Cinavia discs wouldn't play on older players then everyone would need to keep an older player for their existing pre-Cinavia collection. It would be much too confusing and irritating for the average consumer to keep track since up til now these discs are poorly marked.

    That said, it might not be too far fetched in in some future incarnation ie... BD 4K /8K they could decide to adopt a new standard which would not be backwards compatible. With a fresh start anything is possible but the more hurdles they put in place the less likely they would win early adopters and it might take 15-20 years before it becomes more than a niche market. Hardly worth the effort when backwards compatibility and mass production / sales which drop the price point are often what cause people to move up. ie... Why buy a DVD player today when BD players can be had for just a bit more and they are backwards compatible with both technologies. Besides by that time it is doubtful Cinavia will survive. Who knows if even disc technology will survive.
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    So you are saying a watermark is a computer program that can execute if/else statements without player involvement.
    I'm saying that blu ray players have cpu's and memory, and that yes blu-ray discs can run programs on a machine. Just like knoppix or another live boot disc works on your computer only much simpler and requires far less computing power. An example would be the disk loading a tiny .bat file to the memory, and run it using the hardwares cpu and memory to check the hardware compatibility. This micro OS would determine whether to play the file or not depending on the data it recieves. Seeing how Cinavia has been gaining widespread support by all major manufacturers I don't feel it is far stretched for a cinavia protected disc to require the ability to ensure that the player supports cinavia before allowing the media file to be played. Cinavia has gained control of the market for video protection and can/will be able to tell manufacturers "Allow our discs to access the internal memory of your hardware and run our checks to verify it is a legit copy. If you don't allow our discs to verify themselves, the discs wont be playable on your devices and you can go screw since your hardware wont be able to play any current movies. Our blu-ray discs require access to the CPU and memory to decrypt data. Is that in the immediate future? No. Is it entirely possible? yes.



    Also, my main point of all of this was to find out if anyone has tried to simply add a static inaudible frequency to a media file in order to disrupt/corrupt the audio watermark? (What I mean is say cinavia looks for this audio frequency "iilliilliiill" and by playing a static inaudible sound over the entire movie cinavia only ever sees "llllllllllllllllll" in the frequency it's looking for. It seems like it'd be a much better way than changing the pitch and with no audio distortion.

    However the point i've been having to argue is that even if we find a solution to the current cinavia, the battle is far from over. They will keep adapting just as we must. And with Cinavia gaining control over the manufacturers they will have more and more ability to affect manufacturer's decisions.

    And gll, I dunno where you live, but goodluck returning an opened disc of anytype in the U.S.

    how would they know that the copied disc had Cinavia in the 1st place if somehow it was removed
    They wouldn't, DRM will be a battle for a very long time and I'm not psychic. But for media that never had cinavia protection there wouldn't be any check since the start of the disc wouldn't have something like a .bat file trying to ensure the presence of cinavia, and the video would play as normal.

    That said, it might not be too far fetched in in some future incarnation ie... BD 4K /8K they could decide to adopt a new standard which would not be backwards compatible. With a fresh start anything is possible but the more hurdles they put in place the less likely they would win early adopters and it might take 15-20 years before it becomes more than a niche market. Hardly worth the effort when backwards compatibility and mass production / sales which drop the price point are often what cause people to move up. ie... Why buy a DVD player today when BD players can be had for just a bit more and they are backwards compatible with both technologies. Besides by that time it is doubtful Cinavia will survive. Who knows if even disc technology will survive.
    There's no reason that players wouldn't be backwards compatible, if there is a cinavia check on the disc it is run, if theres not a check, it plays back like normal. As for the comment about people already owning BD players, there are firmware upgrades and if someone doesn't see the need to buy a new player, let them be content with what they already own/old DVD's cinavia wouldn't make money off that anyways. Eventually theyll want the new stuff. Most BD players are capable of much more than the current firmware allows, and the ability to run a simple if/else program wouldnt require much computing power. And a move from discs would actually be a great advance for rippers with the ability to easily add processing power to the data.

    I'm not saying this is exactly what is going to happen but this is going to continue to be a long and dirty battle and expect every trick to be pulled out.
    Last edited by codecobalt; 15th Dec 2013 at 00:20.
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    A discussion I haven't seen yet but probably will rear it's ugly head is why not modify the hardware of several players directly to turn off Cinavia - sounds like an easier path to follow than all the file processing resulting in f****d up audio presently being discussed. For me I have an old BD player without cinavia that plays everything just fine....
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