I'm looking to achieve the most professional cinema-like look possible with the equipment I have or with minimal upgrades. I know my equipment is consumer grade, but I want to get the best results possible for now. I'm very new to this and would like to learn from those with experience.
Here's what I have:
Canon Vixia HF200
Sony Movie Studio 9 Platinum (probably will upgrade to the Sony Movie Studio 12 Platinum Suite to take advantage of the 64 bit version. Good idea?)
My computer has:
AMD Phenom II X6 1100T
16GB (4x4GB) Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600
GT 440 DDR3 1GB
or
GT 240 DDR5 512 MB (which is better for this?)
I've done some research, and this is what I know:
Record everything @ the highest quality possible - MXP (which is 1920 x 1080 resolution @ 24Mbps bitrate)
Avoid pan & zoom at all costs.
I know a little about setting the aperture to get a shallow depth of field and using manual focus.
So my questions relating to filming are:
Should I record @ 60i, 30p or 24p? (not sure if these are true frame rates or not, but my understanding is that they are all in a 60i container)
Should I manual white balance? If so, what is the best way? (the camera has auto, and several presets for types of lighting)
Should I use the camera presets for shutter speed/exposure? or learn what's needed and adjust manually?
For editing:
Files are AVCHD (.MTS) and seem to edit fine in movie studio.
Color correcting? Color balancing? How?
De-interlace?
Render @ a constant bitrate at or above the recorded rate (24Mbps)?
Render @ what frame rate?
Anything else I should do?
Thanks, I appreciate the input from those with expertise.
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Whew! I think you're asking for the contents of several manuals
. I can answer some of that, certainly not all of it.
The weak spot is SONY Platinum. There is so much free software available for editing and other corrections that get better results. As you seem to want to make different corrections, you should avoid working with compressed audio or video. Convert to lossless formats like AVI. There are plenty of lossless compressors around. Imagine that your video is in a compressed format such as JPG; every time you change and re-save, the file is recompressed and more data is lost. Soon you have lossy compression artifacts that are impossible to remove.
Going to 64-bit won't give a speed increase in itself. It just makes more RAM available over the 32-bit 3.5-GB limit. But a newer OS, even it's 32-bit, can handle HD formats better than something like XP. Anyway, 64-bit isn't a bad idea, but not absolutely necessary. Keep in mind that some filters, etc., will have to run in 32-bit anyway.
Sounds OK to me. You'll need an external hard drive in an AC-powered enclosure (with a cooling fan inside). There are plenty of these enclosures available.
Use as much in terms of manual operation as is practicable. Auto-aperture adjustments, especially in mixed lighting, will be your worst enemy.
60i = 30fps interlaced. Nothing wrong with interlaced video, and there are ways to work post-processing in that event, but you'll probably want 30p or 24fps. 24fps would make a smaller file and 3:2 pulldown can be applied later if you need 30fps output. That latter is the way many DVD's/BD's are made today. The interlace or 3:2 does show on computer playback, but not on TV. SOme would say 30p is the way to go.
Auto light balance works well only in "average" lighting situations where the lighting source(s) is consistent -- but in any moving scene, it seldom is. It depends on what you're shooting and how it's lighted. IF you shoot interiors, you should likely use a color temp setting for that. Fluoresecnt and neon are the absolute worst; some camneras correct better than others. A pro would use color filters and various forms of fill and reflectors, but that's not practidal for most users or for on-the-spot filming. However, "auto-white" is a terror; avoid whenever possible. A prominent object of different color entering the frame will throw off color balance, and such auto-whites tend to blast away highlights. I'll make a blanket statement and say that auto-white and auto-exposure are the pits. The damage can't be repaired.
Do they? Is the editing frame-specific, or key frame only? Is the entire video re-rendered for cutting, or smart-rendered (only the edited region is re-rendered). You can avoid that by cutting/joining in a lossless AVI format or using a frame-specific editor with smart rendering. MPEG/AVCHD video is not encoded with a complete image in every frame. The encoding is done in GOP's (groups-of-frames), where the only "complete" image is in a key frame; the other frames contain only partial images that track the changes between key frames. In a lossless conversion into containers such as AVI, every frame is a complete image (there are no key frames). Of course, that's why the working files are so large. Very large.
That's a world all its own. This can be corrected in the original (lossy) recorded format, but you're constantly re-encoding and re-compressing the results. And the color controls in products like SONY Platinum are seriously limited at best. Color and levels corrections are best done in lossless formats in a YUV (or YCbCr) colorspace or in RGB. There are dozens (hundreds?) of free color filters available for apps like Avisynth or VirtualDub.
IMO, that's not absolutely necessary. Your choice.
bitrate to be determined, and frame rate depends on how you've recorded, but there are standard frame rates for SD and BD. You can see some of the standard specs here: https://www.videohelp.com/hd .
Most would encode at multi-pass VBR, not CBR. You'll have plenty of high quality choices with many free encoders available.
Be patient. Especially at first. One step at a time.
Don't take this as Absolute. Many members here will chime in with more ideas than you thought were possible.Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 11:55.
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If you want a pro editing program for free, I would recommend you to check out Lightworks and use EyeFrame Converter to convert your files, if Lightworks do not support them natively.
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For "cinematic" look - 24p, all manual. Anything "auto" will be a disaster and 60i will look more "home videoish"
Lighting, set design, planning, stabilization and controlled shooting rigs are just as important for the "look" (often more important) than camera settings -
sanlyn said,
"The weak spot is SONY Platinum. There is so much free software available for editing and other corrections that get better results. As you seem to want to make different corrections, you should avoid working with compressed audio or video. Convert to lossless formats like AVI. There are plenty of lossless compressors around. Imagine that your video is in a compressed format such as JPG; every time you change and re-save, the file is recompressed and more data is lost. Soon you have lossy compression artifacts that are impossible to remove."
I've spent quite a bit of time researching this & am thoroughly confused. All this stuff about types of compression & losing data when cutting in the middle of keyframes or I frames is over my head.
I'm using Sony Movie Studio Platinum 9 (and/or a 30 day trial of Sony MS Platinum 12 which seems to work just the same, but has more/better render options)
(1) I import my AVCHD (.mts) files into MS 9 and edit them (drag, drop, cut, splice, add effects, music, sound effects, etc.) which seems to work fine. When I save the project, the file (*.vf) is less than 100kb for a 5 min. video. so it really isn't actually doing anything to the original files except creating a reference to them - right? No data loss? or does even playing these files uncompress & recompress the data resulting in loss of quality?
(2) The only problem I seem to have is that the preview is choppy - almost unviewable @ full 1920 x 1080, but still somewhat choppy @ 480 x 270 (same in version 12). (Note: the unedited .mts files play just fine @ full res on VLC Media PLayer) So in order to see what my edit actually looks like, I have to render it (to a .m2ts file) which plays fine (in VLC). Is this because Movie Studio has to do so much with the .mts file even to view it?
(3) It seems like I have 3 options: 1- continue editing w/ the AVCHD files. 2- convert files to another format & edit w/ those. 3- Create proxy files to edit with & swap them out for the .mts files for render. Which of these (or another way) results in the highest quality final product? (Note: Video was recorded @ 60i - 1920 x 1080 x 32 @ 24Mbps. A 1 minute unedited .mts file is about 180MB - when rendered (unedited) to a HD 1080-60i YUV file (.avi) the file is about 7GB (1 minute length). - I'm not worried about space, I have a couple of extra 500GB HDD & eSata)
I'm viewing this on a 24 inch HD monitor, so I have no idea what the quality will look like on a theater screen. Please help.Last edited by bweath; 27th Sep 2012 at 16:36. Reason: I guess I didn't do the quote thing right.
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the Canon Vixia HF200 is not a high enough quality cam and video from it is not acceptable at any tv station or film festival. so unless this is just a private showing somewhere you're wasting your time.
the highest quality is whatever the required format for showing is. just render once to that format and leave it alone.--
"a lot of people are better dead" - prisoner KSC2-303 -
That's not true. There are plenty of TV stations and film festivals that accept even SD materials (like DVD).
Yes, they may not like AVCHD, but if that's the case, convert a distribution copy of it to a format they'll accept.
However, you really should be upgrading cameras to something "prosumer" or Pro if you are serious about seeing your stuff on the big screen.
AutoFocus, AutoIris & AutoWhiteBalance can occasionally be useful even to pros, as long as you KNOW exactly how and why they work the way they do and can act within that knowledge to your advantage. Otherwise, they are restrictive at best and debilitating and corrupting at worst.
Assuming you stick with this camera for the present, sounds to me like you should do these things:- Shoot 1080p24, MXP. This will have to be ITVC'd in post (60i revert back to 24p) BEFORE any editing or processing for you to get the most out of your material.
- ALWAYS use a tripod/monopod/steadicam/table, etc. Unless you are specifically going for a "handheld, jerky" look (I hope not, I think it's passe now).
- Use LOTS of lighting, so the camera can use the lowest ISO setting and get the least noise, plus stop down the iris to get the sharpest image.
- If you can manual white balance, do so. The procedure is usually to point the cam at a true white object, Zoom in so it fills the screen, press & hold WB until it takes. That's it. Do this for each scene/lighting change.
- If you can manual ANYTHING ELSE, do so. To manual focus, point at the subject of interest, Z-in all the way, adjust the focus ring, and Z-out again to where you are keeping your shot. On the best cameras, this will maintain that place of focus, on worse cameras, it won't do a good job of maintaining that focus. Don't even try attempting to rack (change) a focus in the middle of a shot if you aren't already well-versed in that skill.
- I'm pretty sure you can't manual iris on that cam (most consumer ones can't), but to do it manually, you would open the iris until you got either a standard range of light values from full highlight (100% IRE) to full shadows (~0% IRE) with most objects in the middle of the range, or a particular "look", whichever one is most appropriate for your project.
- Pans are common and ok to do in film, but they have to be SLOW & STEADY. Tilts too (though less common). Zooms are much less common. Most film shoots prefer to use dolly/truck/crane moves. Those also must be slow & steady.
- Once you load the footage to your Hard drives (you'll need multiple), you should create an ITVC'd 24p ~Lossless intermediate file (either truly lossless HUFFYUV/Lagarith/etc, or visually lossless Cineform/DNxHD/etc). Then, only work with that 1080p24 format until your have created your master and are ready to make an additional distribution-type copy. Once you are back to 24p, you won't need (nor should you EVER) deinterlace after this. And you want to use AVI, MOV, MXF as your container format until you get to the distribution stage.
- SMS isn't really going to be up for the kind of job you are describing. You need to upgrade to Vegas Pro or similar (though at this time, I still would NOT recommend Lightworks - too buggy). Even then, you may still want to do some processing externally with AVISynth, etc.
- 24" monitor is too small for cinema work, but more importantly, you need a monitor that gives accurate representation of color values and light/dynamic range values. It is your REFERENCE. Everything stands or falls by how correct (or not) it shows things.
- If you're using a ~lossless format, you won't have to worry about the whole GOP thing and can cut wherever you like.
- Get more Hard drives.
- shoot double system (with good mikes in good locations) for good audio.
- pdr's bit about all the other factors being just as important is very true...
Last edited by Cornucopia; 27th Sep 2012 at 18:06.
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Thanks to sanlyn & Cornucopia for such detailed responses.
For clarification - right now I'm working on improving a 5 min.short I did for a 72 hour competition (1st film I've ever made). Hoping to gain some knowledge in case I do more of these competitions where all films are screened regardless of quality. I am more interested in writing/directing/producing, though. So for now I want to film some of my shorts to build a "portfolio". Hopefully then I can collaborate with a Director of Photography (with better equipment of course) & an Editor (with a better NLE program) once they see what I can produce. In the meantime, if something turns out really well, I might submit it to some small local festivals. -
I'll readily agree that the Canon mentioned isn't an XF300. But one has to start somewhere. I see where Canon's consumer-line lenses are pretty nifty, with great color and contrast. Some of the visual detritus I see broadcast on local PA channels is really awful (I shouldn't say some of it, I should say all of it). I see film students from NYU and Hoftsra running around with the cheapest gear imaginable, but go to their seminars and exhibits and you see how these kids learn to work miracles with that stuff. OTOH, I've seen wedding footage from so-called pro's that look as if they were shot with cheap Vivitar Super8 film cameras and edited with Scotch tape. I would contend that using "lesser" gear forces you to learn to be careful.
Never fear. It'll fall into place with time. Yes, some video editing methods can cause data loss. Some editors seek to avoid that by cutting only on I frames (an I frame is the first frame in a group-of-frames, or GOP). Yeah, even that sounds more complicated than it really is. You don't have to be an MIT video engineer to understand it. Here's a brief Wikipedia thingie that offers a simplified explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_pictures
The pro's avoid these cutting problems by working in losslessly compressed AVI (or with really expensive shop-grade, frame-specific editors). You can use lossless compressors like Lagarith or x264's lossless mode. Lagarith seems easiest to me. The advantage with uncompressed or losslessly compressed AVI is that all frames are key frames (complete images). The audio, too, is usually converted to uncompressed PCM (a .wav file) to avoid recompressing audio as well.
The data loss occurs when the effects are applied. During play, the original file is unchanged. I have to wince when I realize that effects would be applied with lossy compressed video and audio alike.
Yes. Spend $1000 USD on something like Premiere Pro (or spend similar for AfterEffects), and you get a similar preview, depending on how extensive the added effects would be.
Go with #2. You can add some stuff in Pinnacle, some stuff in AviSynth and/or VirtualDub if you wish, but work with AVI. Likely you'll need Avisynth to check and adjust broadcast-safe black/white levels; you likely won't need extensive color correction or denoising, but any of that is best done in AVI with Avisynth and/or VirtualDub. Finally, get a better and more flexible encoder, as the last step. Many of them are free.
By 24" I assume you refer to a CRT ? The gods were against me the day mine died (LCD's suck). I'd say that once you get some footage completed, audition on someone's bigger TV. Ideally, find someone with a projector setup that can play your video -- although most home projector setups I've seen are so godawfully un-calibrated that everything looks downright ugly. Even the resolution seems awful. Most theater setups are more properly configured.
Say, those are good notes from Cornucopia; it's making me feel as if I'm back in film class again.Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 11:55.
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Suggestions?
Actually I'm not even quite sure what you mean by this. Is this what Cineform, Lagarith and EyeFrame Converter are? -
Eyeframe is an encoder/transcoder/converter application. The others are codecs, compression-decompression algorithms. The former make use of the latter to convert from one type of compression (or uncompressed) to another.
Scott -
Now I get it. So, I've downloaded GoPro CineForm Studio - does this work well or is there another that's recomended for working with files in Movie Studio? I know Cineform is Visually lossless, so would it be better to go with something that converts to a true lossless format like Lagarith or Huffyuv? If so, what encoder would you recommend?
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You probably won't enjoy the performance of lagarith or huffyuv in vegas with your computer. Even at reduced resolution it will feel sluggish.
If you want to go lossless then at least use ut video codec or amv2. Decompression speed is about 10-20x faster than lagarith 2-4x faster than huffyuv. Low decoding latency is just about the most important consideration for lossless codecs when editing. It's about the only lossless codec that you can use (performance wise) in NLE's without feeling like you have to pull out your hair
Unless you zoom right in and go frame by frame, you won't notice the quality difference in cineform, especially if you use one of the higher settings like filmscan2 . Cineform will feel buttery smooth compared to lagarith or AVCHD
More HDD's were suggested earlier, but you need to put these media files on a non system HDD. -
So which would be faster, Cineform-filmscan2 or lossless (ut video codec or amv2)?
If lossless, what encoder is recomended?
Would one of my 500GB HDD's in an eSATA docking station work? And I only connect it when using the files for editing, right? -
cineform will be the fastest for editing. You can actually use it with older , slower computers. Your computer might be on the slow side to use ut video codec. AMV2 is faster than ut, but not free
Scott mentioned it earlier, but you have to IVTC 24p footage. Some of the newer consumer canon camcorders can record native 24p, but yours is "hard telecined" 24p in 60i. Vegas can't IVTC this footage. If you get cineform neoscene it can do it for you , or there are free methods with avisynth. You can use the avisynth to IVTC + free cineform version in vdub for example . However, there is a bit of a learning curve to learning basic avisynth
Try editing some sample clips to guage the performance and if it meets your needs or consider some hardware upgrades also (many people edit native AVCHD now)
Would one of my 500GB HDD's in an eSATA docking station work? And I only connect it when using the files for editing, right? -
Wow - 6-core 3.3GHz is on the slow side? What do editors use then?
What upgrades would be recommended? Faster processor? SSD's? GFX Card?
..and I thought editing in native AVCHD resulted in data loss and something worse when effects are added?
IVTC is basically a method of encoding that deinterlaces the 24p from the 60i container into a true 24fps so I can edit frame by frame in a lossless format?
Yes - very short, for now. The one I'm currently working on is only 5 minutes finished length. I'm working with less than an hour of total footage.
The other 3 that I have written will each be less than 10 minutes, so I assume the 2 - 500GB HDD's will at least get me through these? -
An AMD hexcore is significantly slower than an Intel hex from the same generation. A lot of it has to do with the code optimization and compiler used. Many programs are better optimized for Intel CPUs.
Most (serious) editors use workstations, usually dual socket (so dual hex, or dual octo now for SB-E)
You should ask the questions about what is required for submission (what format, what media) . Most places will have a list of requirements. It's that lossy encoding that causes most damage. (e.g. they might want it as a blu-ray disc, or a prores file). If this is real projection in a theatre, you need DCP. Vegas can't do that. You need other software in addition (you can still edit with vegas). If it's some homebrew projection you need to know how it's set up, what connections, how it's going to be played
You should be fine with your current setup using cineform or proxy workflow
Newer versions of vegas can use GPU assist if you have a newer GFX card, but it's mostly effects, scaling operations that are quicker, the actual decoding when you scrub is still largely CPU bound
IVTC is returing the progressive frames back, so every frame is a frame. It will be as if you shot real 24p. Your camera records it in fields, so it's "stored" as 59.94 fields per second. The process is only lossy if you encode with a lossy format - that's where any quality loss occurs
It's a hassle, that's why 24pN (native) is preferred
Yes - very short, for now. The one I'm currently working on is only 5 minutes finished length. I'm working with less than an hour of total footage.
The other 3 that I have written will each be less than 10 minutes, so I assume the 2 - 500GB HDD's will at least get me through these?
You can't use uncompressed YUV with a single HDD (as you did earlier with the 7GB file). I/O will become the bottleneck and you won't get realtime performance. You will need faster HDD's in RAID-0 or SSD's
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