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  1. I am trying to re-edit a clip from a Russ Meyers movie that I ripped from my DVD. I did the editing in Pinnacle Studio 12 and it played great in Pinnacles's preview window.

    When watching the newly edited clip with windows media player I see a "flash" at many of my edits. I then load the clip into VideoRedo so that I can look frame by frame. What I see looks like an interlaced frame or two at each of the bad edits. I can chop them out but that will be laborious because I have a lot more editing to do on similar projects.

    I thought I could solve my problem by using Pinnacle Studio 12's ability to de-interlace. I ran the source clip through and deiterlaced it (I thought). But the results were no different after editing.

    One thing that would be helpfull would be if I could open a clip in Pinnacle Studio 12 or VideoRedo and see a list of the clips characheristics. I would know if I had succesfully deinterlaced it and if this was my problem. But I don't see this information in either of those programs. Is it there and I missed it. Is there another program I can get to inspect my clips?

    I'n not inexperienced with these programs. This is a new wrinkle that I have never had to deal with. Maybe I just wasn't using interlaced source material so I never encountered it.

    This interlacing artifact doesn't show up on all players but that isn't s a solution for me. I want the final video to look good on Windows Media Player and any other player I happen to use.

    Thanks
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  2. Movies, by definition, are progressive to begin with. It shouldn't need deinterlacing. An IVTC, maybe, if NTSC, but not deinterlacing. I don't know what you did to create interlacing, but surely there's a better solution than just blindly deinterlacing it. Can you post a sample, 10 seconds or so from the source, a section with steady movement?
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  3. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Even a 10 sec sample from a RM movie could be 'interesting'

    But I wonder if you are cutting on B or P frames assuming your rip is mpeg2. There are mpeg2 editors that guarantee a cut on an I-frame.
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  4. I'll try a few experiments today and post a sample or two tonight if I figure out how. I think Russ Meyer's movies were rated X in their day but they are between PG and R by todays standards.

    If your correct and my source is not interlaced maybe it is being introduced when I edit in Pinnacle Studio 12. I found a setting about project settings and it was set to NTSC Interlaced. I changed it to NTSC progressive. But I'm not completely suire what that setting means. That's why I want to do some tests and see if it effected the outcome or not.

    I'm sure what I am looking at is an interlace artifact. I can look at the frames in VideoRedo and see one or three frames that contain two different pictures interlaced (Every other line is one picture and the other lines are the other picture).

    One played in some players this shows up as a sort of flash at each edit that is jarring. It is not difficult to just snip out the bad frames but it is time consuming on a big project.

    If I make the edits with VideoRedo instead of Pinnacle Studio 12 this doesn't happen but VideoRedo is just cut and join. No changing speed, reversing clips or other effects. And no ability to edit the audio track seperately.
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  5. So just for completeness here is my workflow
    1) Rip DVD with DVDdecripter
    2) Convert VOB to mpg with VideoRedo
    3) Edit in Pinnacle Studio 12
    4) Play in Windows Media player and notice flashes
    5) Play in VideoRedo and after a flash, go back frame by frame until I find the obviosly interlaced frames at the border between two edited clips
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  6. Member DB83's Avatar
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    You have been around here long enough to know the tools to determine if your source - the ripped mpeg - is interlaced or not.

    But just to remind you run it through mediainfo and that will tell you. You would want to keep your project settings the same as the source as well as the field order.

    Now a word or two about RM dvd's. A lot of words have been written about poor encoding on some releases so the issue you have may well be intrinsent and difficult to correct.

    Why would the edited clip play ok in some players, including your editor preview, is down to whether they are automatically de-interlace and even the method they use for that.

    So adjust your project settings and try again. If the issue persists then I still believe the problem rests with your choice of editor. You are not describing intelace artifacts as I would expect to see them ie a combing effects. You also admit that the issue does not happen with VideoRedo which, I do believe properly cuts on an I-frame.
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  7. I've been editing for quite a while but I haven't had this problem very often. It has happened once in a while and I just manually chop out the bad frames. I'd like to solve the problem once and for all and not have to deal with it over and over again.



    Here is the 10 second clip. I don't know if you can learn anything from it on youtube. The glitches show up when I play it in Windows Media Player and in VideoReDo. The bad frames are at 2.12, 5.14, and 6.17
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  8. Click image for larger version

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    Here is a screen grab of the bad frame in VideoRedo
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  9. Woops. I'll redo that screeng grab. Hang on.
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  10. Click image for larger version

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    If you look closely you can see that this is not just a garbled frame. It is two pictures interlaced. One picture is the girl in the car and the other is the gas station attendant.
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  11. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Pls upload the 10 second clip here. Youtube is no good as it should already be de-interlacing.
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    Your youtube clip has other problems, there is a bad edit and it has every 5th frame repeated (jerky playback). As manono said above, you should IVTC, not deinterlace it as this is a film source . Notice the youtube video is 29.97. Film rate should be 24p (or 23.976) . There is probably nothing wrong with the DVD, probably only what you did to it in pinnace (deinterlace)

    Your screenshot of videoredo shows a combed transition. If this was before your edit - This DVD was probably encoded interlaced instead of progressive. There is a cadence break right on the scene cance. The solution is to IVTC with adaptive methods like avisynth TIVTC before you do anything else to it

    Also, making edits on on DVD video when it hasn't been IVTCed (ie 3-2 pulldown hasn't been removed), you run the risk of causing those combed transitions (it might be from the studio, but you run the risk of adding them) unless you IVTC beforehand. When you IVTC, true progressive frames are returned, so you can edit where ever you want. If you don't IVTC, you risk breaking the 3-2 cadence and might end up with a combed tranistion if you don't cut exactly at the right spot .
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  13. Member DB83's Avatar
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    But just to eliminate the possibilty of an error on the original dvd it would be useful (in my eyes) to upload two clips. One pre-edit and one post-edit.
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  14. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    If you don't IVTC, you risk breaking the 3-2 cadence and might end up with a combed tranistion if you don't cut exactly at the right spot .
    Right, that was my original thought - that he was editing as video and breaking cadence. But at that point I didn't even know if he was PAL or NTSC (coulda been PAL with mis-aligned fields, maybe?). And that's why a sample is needed. Is this hard telecine? Probably, but just guessing. Soft telecine opening as interlaced 29.97fps in Pinnacle? Or what?
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    But just to eliminate the possibilty of an error on the original dvd it would be useful (in my eyes) to upload two clips. One pre-edit and one post-edit.
    ^Yes absolutely . Those 2 clips will definitively indicate what is going on. As you mentioned youtube is next to useless as the clip has been deinterlaced and resized.

    The question is whether or not the original DVD was encoded interlaced (hard telecine) or progressive (soft) . On older DVD's that use hard telecine, you will often see telecine breaks that look like combing right at the scene change - this is done by the editor and left there by the studio. You hardly ever see this on newer releases because they are almost always progressive and edited while they were progressive
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  16. http://youtu.be/bSO-gC_8VcY
    So I'm getting the impression that I just need to IVTC (Inverse Telecine) before I edit in Pinnacle Studio 12. Here is a short clip of my source material. It was ripped with DVDdecrypter and then converted to mpg with VideoRedo.

    In my first clip I posted one of the clips has been "folded" if I'm using the term correctly. I reversed the clip and butted it up next to itself. Russ Meyer was known for his choppy editing. I'm trying to undo that by chopping out extranesous shots and extending the clips of the main characters by folding, repeating, and slowing down. Just a pet project purely for my own enjoyment.
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  17. Member
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    Originally Posted by presto View Post
    http://youtu.be/bSO-gC_8VcY Here is a short clip of my source material. It was ripped with DVDdecrypter and then converted to mpg with VideoRedo.


    You can't use youtube for uploading unprocessed samples because youtube re-encodes, and sometimes deinterlaces
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  18. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Is it hard to read English ?. The request was to upload the samples here. YT has already altered them so they are of little use except what has already been established.

    Upload them here and we can use our own tools to see what can be done.
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  19. Sorry about that. It's not a question of reading English. I wasn't sure how to upload a clip and then I saw the button right above this window. The button says Insert Video and then it says that Youtube is acceptable so I tried it. It seemed to work and people were commenting on the first clip so I uploaded a second.

    Ok, Now I'm using advanced and I see the attatchment symbol so I'll try that.
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  20. Your source is hard telecined. You need to IVTC if you want no interlaced frames in your output.
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  21. I know I'm a totaly newb to some of you. Basically I've been PLAYING with editing for a long time so I have a certain amount of knowledge but not a very detailed understanding of pal, ntsc, frames etc. I usually just use VideoRedo and have no problems. I use Pinnacle Studio once in a while and have a few problems but not much.

    So now I want to inverse telecine my source and see if that solves my problem. I'm reading about Inverse Telecine and getting a lot of theory but haven't yet found exactly how to do it. I don't mind reading but any help in getting started would be appreciated.

    So far I can't find inverse telecine in Pinnacle Studio 12 or VideoRedo. It might be there but I haven't found it yet.
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    Originally Posted by presto View Post
    So far I can't find inverse telecine in Pinnacle Studio 12 or VideoRedo. It might be there but I haven't found it yet.
    videoredo can't do it - so you can stop looking there

    I don't use pinnacle, but some NLE's can IVTC (in some it's called "remove 3:2 pulldown or remove 2:3 pulldown") , but the problem is they are usually non-adaptive - they assume a fixed cadence. You can be left with combed frames

    I would use avisynth's TIVTC for this, then import at as progressive 23.976 source
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  23. The best method is to use DgIndex to create an index file then an AviSynth script to perform the IVTC:

    Code:
    Mpeg2Source("filename.d2v") # the index file
    TFM() # match fields to make progressive frames
    TDecimate() # remove duplicates, 1 out of every 5 frames, leaving 23.976 fps
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  24. Thanks all. That gives me a good start.
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  25. So far I'm looking at AVIsynth but it looks like a steep learning curve. I found Hardbrake and was excited to see that it had inverse telecine and a nice page explainging the whole thing. But it only outputs in mp4 and mkv. I don't know how using mp4 will effect things and Pinnacle Studio 12 doesn't even accept mkv.

    If any one knows of a program that does IVTC without a lot of steps let me know.
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  26. jagabo already gave you most of it. Install AviSynth. Open the DVD VOBs in DGIndex and save out a project file (a D2V) with Video->Field Operation set at the default 'Honor Pulldown Flags'. Get TIVTC and stick the DLL in your AviSynth plugins folder. Get it here:

    http://avisynth.org/warpenterprises/

    Create that script he gave you in Notepad and change the extension from TXT to AVS. Try and open it in VDub (File->Open Video File) and report any error messages it gives you. The best place to learn how AviSynth works is by reading the extensive documentation included in the DGMPGDec package which includes DGIndex and the needed DGDecode.dll.
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  27. Member DB83's Avatar
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    I can not reproduce your edit since the original source does not have the correct frames.

    I loaded the clip in to my editor of choice - UleadMediaStudio Video Editor V7 - and take a look at the frame when there is a cut. If Pinnacle does not show this then it does you no favours.

    I have done a quick 'n dirty edit - you can even hear double audio in it. I removed the garbage frames at single-frame edit.

    I do not think most editors IVTC but at frame level and I-frame cutting (Ulead does this) you should get away with it with resource to avisynth etc.
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  28. By the way, even the original video has frames where one field comes from one shot and the other from the next. For example:

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  29. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Indeed. I think you have the same frame as mine which also came from the original video.
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  30. Thanks DB83 and jagabo. For some reason these interlaced froameds really jump out at me at the edits when viewed in Windows Media Player. I have been looking through the settings in Pinnacle to see if I can cause it to cut at the Iframes but I dont' find that setting. I have used Ulead in the past but I think the way Pinnacle does things is more intuitive.

    Last night as an experiment I deinterlaced using handbrake and saved as mp4. Pinnalce studio handled mp4 a little strangely as far as editing. I would make cuts and then the clip wouldn't contain what it should. SO....I had Pinnacle output the video as mpg. I then put the mpg back into Pinnacle and it handled it fine. When I made a few sample edits and looked at them in Windows Media Player they did not have those fflashes at the edits. So that pretty much solves my problem.

    I'm sure this sounds like a messy solution to you (and it is) but it seemed to work for my needs. I'll continue to try to learn about ITVC. Thanks for all the help.
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