digital rot?

[the WebWalker]

I use TY dvd+R8X - mid YUDEN000 T02. I made a copy of a movie in Feb 2009.
I watched it once back then, from the copy, no problem.
I pulled it out this week for a rewatch.
A short way in it froze for seconds then jerked forward, was ok for a while and then repeated freezing.
I have two dvd players oppo & lg. I switched to the lg and with similar hangs.

Is there any utilities than can 'test' this dvd and give me useful information?
tia

[jagabo]

Nero DiscSpeed. Run a Transfer Rate test. Look for a nice smooth graph. You can also run the Disc Quality test.

[the WebWalker]

I have Nero 4.06 and don't find Transfer Rate test tab
I use a Benq 1640 for all my burns.
Here is the DQ test results but don't know how to interpret.
Any other utils that analyse and give conclusions?

My concern is what about the other dvd copies??

[jagabo]

The quality test looks fine. The Transfer Rate test is on the Run Test menu. Or just press F2.

[the WebWalker]

here it is

[lordsmurf]

You cannot say that a disc has "rotted" or "gone bad" when it was never tested to begin with. The disc has more likely always been in this condition. Simply assuming a disc has changed over time is assumption, not scientific method.

What's more likely to have changed are the laser conditions on your various players, burners and readers.

This thread gives another good look at what PI/PO testing is limited. The TRT clearly shows errors while the other scan is supposedly clean.

Lots of people also fail to properly remember where/when they watched a DVD. So many many copy or author discs, and never actually watch them for years. By that time, your memory has betrayed you, and you remember wrong. You may have watched the assets on the computer or while it was recording. Or you watched the original DVD. But you just forgot.

Actual disc degradation is so rare that you should buy lottery tickets if your luck is that good.

[the WebWalker]

please read my opening post. I watched this copy, flawlessly, back on the origination date.

I won't read your post further as you didn't read mine.

[Noahtuck]

I guess I had better start buying lottery tickets!!

LOL!!

It may be rare, but it does happen, even with STORE BOUGHT OFFICIALLY PRESSED DVD's!!!

Therefore it tends to reason it can happen more often with manufactured writable media.

It is ridiculous to know/say it can happen with one type of digital optical disc media and not another.......

[jagabo]

With a transfer rate scan like that you should immediately copy the disc onto a new one. Or rip the original again.

[lordsmurf]

please read my opening post. I watched this copy, flawlessly, back on the origination date.
I won't read your post further as you didn't read mine.

Oh, I read your post. But what you're describing is either inaccurate (bad memory) or unfounded (no previous test results by which to compare against). Most all claims of "disappearing data" or "disc rot" are not backed by verifiable information. As is the case here.

Pressed DVDs don't really "rot" either. But quite a few are horribly made, and were bad the minute they were pressed. There's really only 4 verifiable common types of "rot":
- CD dye-eating bacteria that look like tapeworms
- Alloy breakdown in Laserdiscs
- Pit formations in DVD+RW, sometimes DVD-RW
- Decades-long exposure to a combination of humidity, light and/or heat

... and that's it.

I'm excluding poor storage and handling. Most "rot" is because discs were stored improperly. And that's not "rot".

People need to stop inventing things in their heads to explain their observations. That what ancient civilizations did. Pissed-off gods made it rain, drought, etc. This really isn't much different. It's not science.

[Des]

People need to stop inventing things in their heads to explain their observations. That what ancient civilizations did. Pissed-off gods made it rain, drought, etc. This really isn't much different. It's not science.

My pissed off god made my DVDs rot

To appease him or her I am throwing a VHS tape in the leaf shredder and then doing a dance.
Then buy a new leaf shredder...

--dES

[lordsmurf]

To appease him or her I am throwing a VHS tape in the leaf shredder and then doing a dance.
Then buy a new leaf shredder...

I once threw a VCR off a third-story roof, onto a brick driveway.

Splat.

[sanlyn]

Well....the last time I had a previously played disc that all-of-a-sudden-for-no-reason was playing like a bouncing handball, I pulled it out and used a microfiber cloth and alcohol to polished off the thumbprints I found. Seriously, though, I assume you probably looked for something like that. So if you've already tried it......let's move on to the next suggestion.

[johns0]

Thread moved to the media forum,not editing related.

[the WebWalker]

thanks - media forum
didn't know where to start so posted there
thanks again

[the WebWalker]

digital rot - media degradation - existence questioned

I, like most of us, have varied interests. When I need cd/dvd information I come here.

Lordsmurf chooses, for whatever reason to get on his crate.
He pontificates and choses to ignore a ligitamate problem.

I call him on it.

So he tells me I'm wrong and don't know what I'm doing or saying.

I looked at his profile. He seems reasonably competent in his field.

Why don't you start a sticky

" ROT
- CD dye-eating bacteria that look like tapeworms
- Alloy breakdown in Laserdiscs
- Pit formations in DVD+RW, sometimes DVD-RW
- Decades-long exposure to a combination of humidity and heat

... and that's it.

(caveat - storage) "

Why do I need to trot out my bona fides?
My methodology is sound.

So
Nero only tool?
test my disks before and after this burn?
No way do detect difference between bad burn & possible degradation (before & after)
Any guide/faq for interpreting Nero data
thanks in advance

[jagabo]

I run a transfer rate scan on any important discs. If it's nice and smooth, or only a few little bumps, I call it done. With Verbatim Datalife Plus discs I rarely have a problem. Mabye one in a hundred burns.

I do have a spindle of Fry's house brand discs that will scan fairly well immediately after a burn but will get worse over the next several hours. After a few days the last ~third of the disc will be unreadable. I've repeated this experiment many times. Worst $5 I ever spent!

[lordsmurf]

I do have a spindle of Fry's house brand discs that will scan fairly well immediately after a burn but will get worse over the next several hours.

This is almost always a case of drive overheating.

After a few days the last ~third of the disc will be unreadable.

This would merit further study, but storage conditions MUST be observed as well. Generally most unreadable discs are the result of mishandling. (Including non-obvious issues, such as microabrasions from wallets.) This is indeed a sign of a "poor disc", because it's easy to damage, but it's not synonymous with "rot" or any other term to discuss degradation.

Why do I need to trot out my bona fides?
My methodology is sound.

Because it's not sound. And without proper understanding of optical media, you're more likely to just guess at cause and effect, as opposed to properly observing and assessing what has happened.

[jagabo]

I do have a spindle of Fry's house brand discs that will scan fairly well immediately after a burn but will get worse over the next several hours.

This is almost always a case of drive overheating.

In this case it's not. I've observed this on several different drives. The drives have gone on to burn hundreds of Verbatim discs without any problems.

After a few days the last ~third of the disc will be unreadable.

This would merit further study, but storage conditions MUST be observed as well.

Yes, the two dozen discs I've tested from that spindle have all been so improperly stored they became unreadable after a day or two. NOT.

[jjeff]

Another data point to add.
A few days ago I copied a DVD on my computer to a low cost DL blank but ones I've had good luck with for the last several months. A day after recording I played the copy on one of my DVD players, one that generally plays DVDs(burnt and commercial) just fine but I've noticed tends to hiccup in areas that some of my other players play just fine.

Anyway the copy skipped and paused in several areas, when I played the DVD in another player it played just fine, I kind of chalked it up to a bad blank(even though at the time it verified just fine). The original was like new and played just fine.
Yesterday I played another copy(high quality Verbatim 2.4x DL blank) I had made maybe a year ago. I've played this copy several times on this player with the most recent being probably 6? months ago without issue. The DVD skipped and locked terribly and sometimes wouldn't even display the main menu I took the DVD out and played it in another player and no issue what so ever....

Guess what I'm trying to say is sometimes the problem can be as much player related as disc related. I don't have any DVD quality testing software(due to previous problems with Nero I refuse to ever install another Nero product on my computers) so I don't know how they would test but never the less I'm probably going to remove this player from my rack and install another one and I'll use these burnt DL discs as a test of player playability with "iffy" discs. Oh and I did try a cleaning DVD in this player and it made no difference.

As another member on this forum is fond of saying(and I'm kind of paraphrasing) DVD burning is a kind of voodoo science and at times like these I kind of agree

[lordsmurf]

I'm probably going to remove this player from my rack and install another one

That's really the best idea.
Sometimes players just flake out. Discs are too often blamed.

[nic2k4]

The biggest problem with no-name discs is the burner not having the proper burn strategy to handle them. Burning a disc with the laser power too low will result in "pits" that are partially formed and prone to degradation, if the power is too high the "pits" become too large and affect their neighbours. If anyone cares to blow a few discs and owns a Plextor burner (Liteon?), you can test it easily with the Varyrec feature. That's the reason for manufacturers recommanded media lists and updating the firmware (Verbatim and Taiyo Yuden are the best discs because they're used to design and calibrate the burn startegies).

There's one major cause for disc degradation you forgot to mention, sunlight (actually any UV source). Leave a disc exposed and within 3 months you'll see the dye colour has changed and you'll be lucky if it's readable.

[lordsmurf]

There's one major cause for disc degradation you forgot to mention, sunlight (actually any UV source). Leave a disc exposed and within 3 months you'll see the dye colour has changed and you'll be lucky if it's readable.

Yes, I did!

I knew there were 3, but had a brain fart. It's actually not just UV light, either, but most waveforms over a period of exposure. UV is just the quickest to do damage. Even IR can eventually ruin a disc.

If you want to kill everything, run a DVD 24x7 in a drive. The heat and light will kill the disc at some point. The drive will be hosed, too. These days, cheap drives will probably go first. It may take a few weeks. I've seen kiosks get trashed after just one road show.

Good catch.

[jjeff]

I'm probably going to remove this player from my rack and install another one

That's really the best idea.
Sometimes players just flake out. Discs are too often blamed.

It gets better. I got another player to swap it out with but for one last time I tried playing the two discs that had skipped previously in my older player but now both played just fine at first but after about 1/2 hr it started skipping again, after it started skipping both discs would skip badly and I even had problems with a burnt Verbatim AZO SL DVD. I tried both DLs and the SL in the replacement player and it's been playing fine for over 2hrs. So while being burnt(and not commercial) these discs may be slightly "iffy" but I put the major blame on the player.
I agree with your last point in that many times the disc gets blamed when the actual problem may be more player related It's one reason I've got more than a dozen different players, mostly Sonys with a few Pioneers(which tend to play most anything) a couple Samsungs(which can sometimes play discs that no player will) a Panasonic and an Oppo. The player I'm replacing is a Sony NS700H that I've been using regularly for several years and I'll put another spare 700 in it's place.

[lordsmurf]

the two discs that had skipped previously in my older player but now both played just fine at first but after about 1/2 hr it started skipping again, after it started skipping both discs would skip badly and I even had problems with a burnt Verbatim AZO SL DVD.

That's a heat issue. Without a doubt.
The DVD player's components are craptastic. I'd wager on the caps being at issue.

[the WebWalker]

back to my problem

Lordsmurf says "You cannot say that a disc has "rotted" or "gone bad" when it was never tested to begin with. "

True. But I do and can. I watched it back then, flawlessly.
Lordsmurf if you think me a liar, or incompetent, please move on.
I'd like to hear from anyone who has trouble with their archived dvd reads. You can see my original was created in feb 2009. First time I tried to access it. Is there additioanl 'hidden' information like the midi that can identify any manufacturing data?

If I process the input then the only thing I can think of left is age. (I still have my 33s in their special sleeves because I felt the original paper sleeves were too abrasive).

So is age not a factor?
Unless we're talking decades?
Anything specific to my media and hardware?

thanks for any help .

[jagabo]

We all know discs won't last forever, even if stored under optional conditions. So obviously, age is a factor. The question is how much of a factor with your discs that are only 3 years old. I have discs that are over 10 years old and still play and scan cleanly. They're mostly Verbatim Datalife, both + and - R (even a few DVD+RW), and I ran a transfer rate test on them after burning and verifying. I haven't tested every one of them but none that I have watch and tested have shown any problems.

The only failures I've had (aside from those Fry's discs mentioned earlier) are discs that were physically damaged or from my early days when I was using paper labels. All the discs with paper labels came back to life after removing the labels.

Nero DiscSpeed will tell you the manufacturer and media code (Disc Info tab).

[aedipuss]

worst case is the dvdr discs i use as nameplates on my mailbox. i burn hp lightscribe blanks and attach them out by the road. i've never had one last more than 6 months without falling apart. literally the discs split and the lightscribed top plastic piece falls off with the metal film attached. nothing else i can think of to do with the spindle of the lightscribe crap anyway. the hp lightscribe cds are even more useless and fade in a couple weeks outside, at least the dvdrs stay legible.

[lordsmurf]

But I do and can.

It's raining outside. I must have angered the rain god today.

If any old dumbass random conclusion works for, then just accept the fact that you pissed off the DVD god. You're essentially asking for a reason why X happened, but the fact is that you're assuming X happened at all.

When you're ready to talk actual science, I'll still be here.

I also have DVDs which were found to be bad. But it's always a case of (1) I didn't test that disc, and (2) I *think* I watched it, but it's been years, so I'm not honestly 100% certain that it's really the case. Assumption isn't science. In cases where I've been testing the discs for a decade, and have results to compare against, discs have barely changed, if any. More often, drive condition is the primary factor for variation.

@aedipuss: Extreme heat, rain, and humidity destroyed the disc bonding. Again, improper storage. But that's obvious.

[aedipuss]

@aedipuss: Extreme heat, rain, and humidity destroyed the disc bonding. Again, improper storage. But that's obvious.

whatta ya talking about? i gave them better treatment than any cmc media deserves