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  1. Member
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    Hi,

    I want to record some videos which are in fact training materials. Teh sound quality is very important.
    The recordings will take place both indoors and outdoors.

    The quality of the video, is less important (I want to upload them on youtube), however, I can assume that with a point and shoot photo/video camera the sound is not that great.

    I was thinking to buy some sort of microphones, wither wired or wirelless... Can you please recommend me a few?

    Now I have a photo camera, Sony DSC 7MP, quite old I would say (around 5 years), and I do not think that I can connect any microphone to this camera? or can I? I can find easily the exact model.

    I also have a friend that has a Canon video camera, if needed I can borrow it. It's still old, around 5-6 years.

    I can also buy a new camera. This will be my first ever more serious recordings, I'm a beginner, therefore I would like to start with an entry level equipment, not to "damage" too much my budget.

    Can you please help me find a decent not very expensive solution.

    Jimmyy
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    Hi,

    What I forgot to mention is that I want to record dialogues, therefore I need to be able to record more than one person talking.
    Indoors I could place a microphone on the table/wall... but outdoors I think I'll need something for each speaker.

    Thank you
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  3. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    What's your deadline(s)?

    What's your budget?

    What's your method of working (single/group, scripted/impromptu)?

    What's the workflow?

    What's your equipment (YES, EXACT MODELS)?

    After we know these, we can tell you more...
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    Hi Cornucopia,

    The deadline is within one month, but if needed it can be extended
    The budget (if it's only for the microphone 50-80EUR) , if it includes the camera as well 350EUR
    Method of working: scritped, and there will be interactions between the two actors (shaking hands...)
    I do not fully understand what you mean by workflow? it will be scritped, meaning that the actors are supposed to do what they are told to do. My aim is to make some educational tutorials where a student asks a teacher a question. I want to make 10-20 short movies of not more than 5 minutes.
    However, if the subject is about traffic, then they will meet and discuss on the street, if it's about cows they will meet on the field with some cows behind them... this is why I was thinking that I will need to single out what they are saying to avoid background noise...

    The point and shoot camera is: Sony DSCP200 7.2MP Digital Camera 3x Optical Zoom
    I'll ask my friend for the exact Canon video camera model and I'll write back asap.

    Thanks
    Last edited by jimmyy; 28th Jun 2012 at 18:20.
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  5. I'm a Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jimmyy View Post
    I do not fully understand what you mean by workflow?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workflow
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
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  6. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    The thing about the sound is that, even with very good quality video-centric cameras, audio is not optimally recorded.


    To record audio optimally, you need not just a good QUALITY microphone & recording system, you need it to be PLACED correctly. And correct audio placement is usually NOT correct placement for video. You really want the mike to be placed ~6-30 inches from the speaker(s)' mouths (and hopefully equidistant). This would make surrounding sound be of lower volume and distant sounding, yet keep the voices solid, loud & clear. To get this, you'd have to have one of these:
    1. Lavalier mike(s), either wired or wireless, attached to the talent
    2. Handheld/Podium-type mike, either handheld by the talent or mounted on a mike stand (noticeably visible!) in front of the talent
    3. Boom mike (usually shotgun type) held above, below or to the side of the talent
    #3 is most versatile, but you need an additional person to do the holding, and is a little more expensive.
    #1 is expensive if you go wireless, not bad if wired but quality is not as good unless you pay more
    #2 is the least expensive (not counting wireless here)

    Or there's a 4th option: buy a Zoom H2 field-audio recorder and have the talent hold that. Then you can set the current cam on a tripod and shoot, have the audio quality be good. All you will have to do is SYNC your 2 sources (cam with internal audio + H2 audio recorder sound). For that, I'd suggest using a clapper to start your scenes, and then match the start points of that loud sync clap on your editing timeline. This is known as "Double System" recording/editing.

    Scott

    edit: you'd have to practice & learn how to best hold it so it doesn't vary the loudness or perspective much, though.
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    Thank you Scott,

    What do you think about this microphone?
    http://www.hama.co.uk/portal/picType*abb/action*2599/articleId*28225452

    I was thinking as well at recording the sound separately and then resynchronising the video with the sound. Thank you for confirming, and for the additional details.

    I also do not know how to handle the fact that there will be two persons speaking, so I'll need to give each one of them a tie-microphone linked to two recorders which makes it more complicated afterwards to resynchronise...

    If I get two wireless mikes, connected to the same recording device , won't it work?

    Jimmyy
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  8. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Well, for a wired lav type of mike, there's little need to use a stereo mike if all you're getting is voice. The reason I suggested what I did is that it, in essence, functions both as the recorder and as a "wireless" mike (for a LOT less cost than the equivalent quality wireless).

    If you do want to go wired, I'd suggest a regular cardioid (uni-directional) lav, or 2 if you have 2 talents. But then you'd need a little mini-mixer to premix them (1 to each channel?) prior to input into either the H2 or the camera (an adapter may also be needed here). Another reason for just using the H2.

    Also, make sure your Editing software is capable of fine timeline adjustment of multiple audio tracks so you can do the slipping/sliding necessary to get the sync dead on.

    Scott
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    Hi Scott,

    With the H2 how should it happen, each tallent should hold it when they talk? or one of them in between?

    With the lavalier mikes, I checked a bit, it's not very cheap, I have to buy the mikes, but then also the receivers, and I guess there is another device where the receivers are transmitted.

    Thank you
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  10. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Like I said in the earlier post, they could pass it back & forth or do the interviewer "push-pull" between faces bit. And that would have to be practiced to not sound wrong.

    Or, since the H2 has tripod threads underneath, you could mount it on a tripod or mike stand and just put it between the talent(s).

    Is it too visibly intrusive? That's your call...

    About Lav mikes: yeah that' what I was trying to tell you. Decent quality = $$. I'd budget minimum $200 for a decent single wireless lav (incl. mike capsule& cable, transmitter & receiver). At my last production company, I used Sony UHF Diversity wirelsses using ECM77B capsules. Those were ~$1500 a piece. They were VERY GOOD, but not top-of-the-line.
    You'll see a LOT of Azden stuff on the market, most of it meant for ENG. I think it sucks. Probably not even on par with Audio-Technica stuff.

    If you had a separate boom op, you could conceiveably use the H2 on a boom (would need to be protected & windscreened, though)...

    Scott
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    Have you considered doing this indoors only? Those ourside-shots can be tricky with the weather, external noises and the number of people involved may attract a crowd who will make a noise, etc. The solution is to try green-screen where the background can be a still photo, or a movie . . .but the actors are indoors and lit/mic'd as required.

    First, though get the "indoor" scenes sorted.
    It may be easier to film the script of one actor, then the other (with the answers), the whole is then cut to make it appear as one take. This has the advantage the camera angles are suited to the subject. To make it a bit easier in Edit, you can resort to a scene /take number clapperboard - and Post #6 using the external recorder is a good idea and far easier to handle that a pro- mic on a stick, although you may prefer to have it clampted to a tripod to reduce handling noises, if someone is holding it.
    Watch audio levels - you can make them louder but once clipped they're fit for the bin.
    Good luck.
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    Originally Posted by jimpny22 View Post
    Have you considered doing this indoors only? Those ourside-shots can be tricky with the weather, external noises and the number of people involved may attract a crowd who will make a noise, etc. The solution is to try green-screen where the background can be a still photo, or a movie . . .but the actors are indoors and lit/mic'd as required.

    First, though get the "indoor" scenes sorted.
    It may be easier to film the script of one actor, then the other (with the answers), the whole is then cut to make it appear as one take. This has the advantage the camera angles are suited to the subject. To make it a bit easier in Edit, you can resort to a scene /take number clapperboard - and Post #6 using the external recorder is a good idea and far easier to handle that a pro- mic on a stick, although you may prefer to have it clampted to a tripod to reduce handling noises, if someone is holding it.
    Watch audio levels - you can make them louder but once clipped they're fit for the bin.
    Good luck.
    Thank you jimpny,

    You read my mind, this is exactly what I'm thinking of right now, if it's really necessary to do the scenes outside, because indoors there will be much less noise..., but there is a great added value of having the movies with the real background. I'm trying to make some educational materials, lets say one expert talking about the traffic jams or air quality in a particular city, or about how to cut roses, and it would make much more sense to ask him in the city, or in front of the actual situation, so that the viewer associates the subject discussed with the background image.

    I understand that I can take a picture and then I can make the green background transparent and that should look like the real thing, right? Is the quality good enough of these procedure with free tools? I assume that it can be perfect if you have professional tools.
    for filming the actors separately I think it's not really feasble, because I need them to interact (e.g. handshake), and I would like to have them both in the scene at least for some of them.

    I think I could do some of them indoors, but I think I would still need to do some outside.

    I do not worry that much about the other people crowding behind the camera, I can choose a place and hour which is less crowded.

    I'm thinking about building the boom mic myself, see my next post.
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    Hi Scott, jimpny,

    What do you think, can one build a boom mic byhimself?
    I checked a bit on the net, and it costs around 1000 EUR/$ a boom mic, and the do it yourself, you end up with most probably less than 100$/EUR
    I found this tutorial it by chance whie googleing...

    Jimmyy
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    Be careful here, this may sound harsh, it's not meant to!
    Beware of "Running before..." -some of this you will already know about..."
    May I suggest you give this outdoors with green screen a try - use family/friends for a 2-min take...When you come to EDIT you will realise what's missing and who made a mistake you didn't notice and tech details we all slip up on. (Ho-Hum).

    Roses - yes, good idea as we all know something about them, even if not expert.

    You need to manually focus. this avoids the camera "hunting" and makes a far sharper picture. Use whatever mic is available, with a dead-cat (Fluffy) round it if there is the slightest breeze. Try to make the background at least twice the filming distance and avoid other people "in-frame" - most cameras will need to have each scene refocussed and for any close up you may need a close-up lens to get really close (eg to the actual pruning).
    A rock-solid tripod is a must and you can tie a weight to the centre make it even better. Avoid cheapies, something aproaching £50 will be reasonably sturdy and high enough to be at eye-level. This can be a problem if the expert is quite tall.

    The audio outdoors will be so-so, but this can be fixed, if the actors used a script - so if you are using willing-helpers (eg Later-on, from the local Nursery, you may need a first visit to get to know them, take their words, edit amd so on, before going back on a suitable day. don't let them read the script, if possible as they will look at that, rather than the camera, which stands-in for the Presenter/Interviewer)
    You'll need Opening/Closing shots of the Interviewer and maybe a few where their face is hidden (so-called noddies) in case you need a bit of blank footage to cover a mistake (eg background interest)....speed the pace, or just shorten the "Expert" if they go Off-Topic. Try to keep them short to ease the Editing - this is about TECHNIQUE - not the Content, for now.
    [[Remember they are not Actors and you have to be patient to get their best into the camera - to show them at their best, etc.).]]
    Record the audio at the time* if possible while they are fresh (or before the filming?) and get in close for the best sig/noise ratio.
    +Your kit will determine how you do this, but the actual vid audio may be scraficed at the Edit stage.

    BTW record some Outdoor site audio to give any indoor recordings the correct sound - this will be difficult if there are cars about, or pepole talking. A budget way round this might be to call your Tutorials "Canteen Chatter" then it doesn't matter where you record the voice-overs.....

    Use software which allows Chroma-Keying and a reasonably large studio. The Presenter needs to several feet away from the green-screen and must not wear anything green! You must light the Presenter from the front/above and the screen from behind the Presenter (to remove any shadows). Ideally get proper green-screen material: it's matt and very bright (and not cheap). You will need quite a lot of it, as it must be larger than the camera angle (although some expensive programs will allow a runaround). Avoid creases (as in bedsheets! unless you can stretch it). Don't let the presenter wave their arms about, they'll break the frame and rapid movement can cause odd "tearing" effects.

    Wow! - That's a lot to start with and you asre hoping to stick to a Budget.
    May I suggest you join a Video/Filming Club - and soak up their expertise, etc......?

    PS
    *Boom mic.(post#13), . . . er yes, but who is going to hold it correctly?

    Good luck, + give it a try . . .
    Last edited by jimpny22; 8th Jul 2012 at 09:17.
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    Hi jimpny,

    thank you very much for your advices, they are welcomed.

    For the boom mic, do you mean that you need to have a certain experience to hold it? I always thought that you try to hold it from behind the camera, above it, as close as possible to the actors, so that it does not enter into the camera angle.

    I'll try to build one myself, just for fun, even if it doesn't work, let's see when I'll have the time to do it.

    I'm starting to understand that this is almost a full time job, even if I want to make 20 movies of 10 minutes each (20 lessons) to put them on a free website. But everything requires a certain amount of sacrifice time investement, isn't it?

    Jimmyy
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  16. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    A boom mike takes 2 strong hands (and arms and stiff back). Plus, it works best when approached from 45-90° off-camera-axis. If you had it on axis, you would see the boom pole in the shot unless you were holding the WHOLE POLE way overhead (that's hard work!). Unless your camera work is a simple, locked-down tripod shot, you would ALWAYS need a 2nd person. And STEADINESS is a must - this takes practice!

    I know this from years of experience in the field (with a sore back and great sound clips to prove it).

    BTW, if you are planning on building your own, you'll need to figure out how you're going to run the cable as well (pro poles are hollow and put the cable INSIDE). If you are going the H2 route, this is unnecessary though you may still want to consider a cable for headphone monitoring. Make sure your pole is built to hold the weight of a fully outfitted mike unit (with cradle, cage & sock/muff or supporting the weight of the H2, etc), also.

    Suggestion: get a hold of a flagpole waist harness, like you see the veterans wear in parades - this can help a LOT with weight distribution (an important concern) and with steadiness.

    Scott
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    Thank you both jimpny and Cornucopia for your useful answers.

    Coming back to my original question, I can get a hold of this camera Jvc gr dv500e, I assume that it is better than the photo camera sony Cypershot DSC P200, since the JVC is a camcorder(I hope that I used the right name), but it's still pretty old...

    What do you think?

    Thanks
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