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  1. Member
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    Does such a ripper exist? I can find tons of them that produce MP4, but not with the NTSC compatibility. At the moment, I am forced to rip then convert. This can be quite time consuming and annoying too.

    A one step process would be a nice program.
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    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    Does such a ripper exist? I can find tons of them that produce MP4, but not with the NTSC compatibility. At the moment, I am forced to rip then convert. This can be quite time consuming and annoying too.

    A one step process would be a nice program.

    Clarify what you mean by "NTSC compatibilty" . Your title says AVC(NTSC) - what do you mean by that?

    Do you mean playable on a regular NTSC DVD player ? Probably not , because AVC isn't compatible with regular dvd players
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    Does such a ripper exist? I can find tons of them that produce MP4, but not with the NTSC compatibility. At the moment, I am forced to rip then convert. This can be quite time consuming and annoying too.

    A one step process would be a nice program.

    Clarify what you mean by "NTSC compatibilty" . Your title says AVC(NTSC) - what do you mean by that?

    Do you mean playable on a regular NTSC DVD player ? Probably not , because AVC isn't compatible with regular dvd players
    To be honest, I don't know what it means. Here is what I do know, mostly from trial and error. To get my videos to play, they must be in the format that MediaInfo specifies as "AVC (NTSC)". What does MediaInfo mean by that? I don't know. it is empirically what works for me. I currently produce these files out of Xilisoft's Video Converter using the PS3 SD profile. The output in this format works great on all of my devices and renderers. But I have not been able to produce this directly from any ripper. They can produce AVC, but not with the added NTSC tag. I suspect it means some sort of compatibility issue with NTSC television equipment. But I play my videos on all sorts of renderers, from PCs to tablets, blu-ray players, etc. AVC (NTSC) usually works on all.
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    It probably means not resized , 720x480, just like the DVD, but re-encoded with AVC. Check with mediainfo on the dimensions

    The fact is different devices may require different specfications. You might need different versions of encoding settings and videos for different devices. e.g. some settings are compatile for PSP but not for ipod or some other device, etc...

    "ripping" is usually a separate step from "encoding" . The DVD comes as mpeg2 video (in VOB), not AVC. When you "rip a disc" you copy the contents to your HDD/SSD. Encoding it afterwards usually compresses it farther. You're looking to combine these

    I think DVDFab might be able to do what you want
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    It probably means not resized , 720x480, just like the DVD, but re-encoded with AVC. Check with mediainfo on the dimensions

    The fact is different devices may require different specfications. You might need different versions of encoding settings and videos for different devices. e.g. some settings are compatile for PSP but not for ipod or some other device, etc...

    "ripping" is usually a separate step from "encoding" . The DVD comes as mpeg2 video (in VOB), not AVC. When you "rip a disc" you copy the contents to your HDD/SSD. Encoding it afterwards usually compresses it farther. You're looking to combine these

    I think DVDFab might be able to do what you want
    I am using DVDFab for my ripping chores already. I have tried producing a vob file output, but Xilisoft cannot always handle the vobs presented by DVDFab. So generally, I have DVDFab produce a file using the ps3.h264.ac3 profile. This is always acceptable to Xilisoft, and it produces an MP4 that is AVC (NTSC) as output. It works for me. I don't have any ipods or PSP. I have iPad, PS3, assorted blu-ray players and iPhones. The MP4s in AVC (NTSC) format work well on all of them.
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  6. Member hech54's Avatar
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    I have an iPod Touch, my wife has an iPhone(both newest generations)...the "iPhone and iPod Touch" preset in HandBrake works perfectly for both. The best way to ensure that you get a playable m4v file to almost any device is to rip with DVDFab/DVDFabDecrypter with the "Main Movie" option and removing the unnecessary languages and subtitles....THEN convert with HandBrake.
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    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    Does such a ripper exist? I can find tons of them that produce MP4, but not with the NTSC compatibility. At the moment, I am forced to rip then convert. This can be quite time consuming and annoying too.

    A one step process would be a nice program.
    You are not correct in your understanding of what "ripping" means. Apparently DVDFab uses this term incorrectly which helps to feed popular misconception, but ripping ONLY means getting data off a CD, DVD or BD disc and onto your hard drive. That's it. It has NOTHING to do with any type of conversion. So technically speaking, no, there is no "ripper" on the planet that can do what you want because that's not what "ripping" is.

    Also, technically speaking AVC is NOT NTSC. So again you are using terminology incorrectly. I am guessing that what you are trying to tell us is that you want 29.97 fps video to be the output or perhaps 24 fps (although that is not NTSC either). Basically your best solution is do exactly what hech54 says.
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    Originally Posted by jman98 View Post
    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    Does such a ripper exist? I can find tons of them that produce MP4, but not with the NTSC compatibility. At the moment, I am forced to rip then convert. This can be quite time consuming and annoying too.

    A one step process would be a nice program.
    You are not correct in your understanding of what "ripping" means. Apparently DVDFab uses this term incorrectly which helps to feed popular misconception, but ripping ONLY means getting data off a CD, DVD or BD disc and onto your hard drive. That's it. It has NOTHING to do with any type of conversion. So technically speaking, no, there is no "ripper" on the planet that can do what you want because that's not what "ripping" is.

    Also, technically speaking AVC is NOT NTSC. So again you are using terminology incorrectly. I am guessing that what you are trying to tell us is that you want 29.97 fps video to be the output or perhaps 24 fps (although that is not NTSC either). Basically your best solution is do exactly what hech54 says.
    So that communications is possible, we must agree on the meaning of words. By "rip", I mean the process of taking data from a disc and transferring it to the computer. In my world, this process often contains a tranformation step. Usually from VOB to MP4... but not always. This mode of understanding comes from using DVDFab. When I first started in this, I used DVD Decrypter, and it just produced a copy of the DVD on my hard disc inside a VIDEO_TS folder. I haven't used anything other than DVDFab for this job in a long time, because it combines two steps into one, rip and transform.

    The usage of AVC and NTSC together is completely meaningless to me. They are simply repeated here from the MediaInfo display obtained from the output MP4 files from Xilisoft's Video Converter. I do not understand why MediaInfo describes these MP4 files in that manner, nor do I understand why this particular file type is the only type that I have found that works on all my devices. If you understand why MediaInfo says it, or why Xilisoft produces it, or why my devices like it, then it would enlighten me greatly. Here is a cut n paste from the MediaInfo display:

    Video
    ID : 1
    Format : AVC
    Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile : Baseline@L3.0
    Format settings, CABAC : No
    Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
    Codec ID : avc1
    Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
    Duration : 2h 7mn
    Bit rate mode : Variable
    Bit rate : 3 526 Kbps
    Width : 720 pixels
    Height : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 2.35:1
    Frame rate mode : Constant
    Frame rate : 29.970 fps
    Standard : NTSC
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Progressive
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.340
    Stream size : 3.14 GiB (96%)
    Encoded date : UTC 2012-06-14 23:25:45
    Tagged date : UTC 2012-06-14 23:25:45

    Please notice the line labeled "Standard", it says NTSC, and the line labeled "Format" it says "AVC". In the condensed/normal MediaInfo display, the tag is just given as "AVC (NTSC)". What this means exactly, I don't know, but it is what I need, determined from trial and error over several years of working with this stuff.

    So in essence what I seek is a replacement for DVDFab. One that is able to produce the same type of file output as is produced by Xilisoft. So that I can perform my work in 1 step, thus saving time and effort.
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    Was this a theatrical dvd (e.g. shot on film, Hollywood) ? If so, xilisoft probably got it wrong - you will probably notice it plays "jerky" and there are duplicate frames (film rate should be 23.976, and the DVD wasn't IVTC'ed)

    It's labelled NTSC for the reasons above - 720x480 like the DVD. AVC is just the compression used (h.264/avc)

    I don' t know of any 1 step rip and encode except dvd fab; maybe others know of other options
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  10. Member
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Was this a theatrical dvd (e.g. shot on film, Hollywood) ? If so, xilisoft probably got it wrong - you will probably notice it plays "jerky" and there are duplicate frames (film rate should be 23.976, and the DVD wasn't IVTC'ed)

    It's labelled NTSC for the reasons above - 720x480 like the DVD. AVC is just the compression used (h.264/avc)

    I don' t know of any 1 step rip and encode except dvd fab; maybe others know of other options
    Actually, the input to this process was an old DVD, that was in 59.97 fps on the DVD itself. When I ripped it with DVDFab, I asked DVDFab to drop the fps to 29.97. Xilisoft just took the output from DVDFab, which was already in the 29.97 fps and already in 720x308. Xilisoft converted to 720x480 and added letterboxing. The final result plays smoothly, the file from DVDFab is jerky and often stutters. The jerkiness and stuttering of the playback of the file from DVDFab is the reason I started looking for a program like Xilisoft's. I have tried several video conversion programs, and this is the one that works for me. At first, I thought it was the fps or pixel dimensions or bitrate, and I fiddled with these inside DVDFab for a long time, but nothing worked smoothly on playback. But once I started using Xilisoft, the output started playing smoothly and I was able to use much higher bittrates than before. Before using Xilisoft, I was limited to very low bitrates, I thought it was network congestion on my LAN. But with Xilisoft the output can be as high as 6000 kbps, and still no LAN congestion. In fact, some videos spike to 31 mbps smoothly on the output in NTSC format.

    The NTSC tag means more than just the fps or pixel dimensions. I can produce the same fps and pixel dimensions from DVDFab, even the letterboxing can be done in DVDFab... but the output is never tagged as NTSC. I believe the NTSC has also to do with the interlacing procedure... but I am a complete novice at understanding NTSC. Also, the output of Xilisoft is anamorphic, but the output of DVDFab is not, but this is not the complete story, just something I have observed.
    Last edited by Bootstrap; 15th Jun 2012 at 14:46.
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  11. Member hech54's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    Actually, the input to this process was an old DVD, that was in 59.97 fps on the DVD itself.
    What?
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  12. Member
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    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    ... but I am a complete novice at understanding NTSC....
    Yes, you are ...

    BTW there is no such thing as 59.97 fps DVD video. It's either 25 or 29.97.

    Forget xilisoft or whatever the hell it's called. Use dvdfab hd decrypter (the free part of the program, which is the part that actually works well) with the dvd-9 out setting to a video_ts folder. While I often use ripping to describe ripping/encoding, really that part is the ripping part.

    Then use handbrake or vidcoder to get h.264 (which is what mediainfo means by avc ... NTSC has nothing to do with it).
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  13. Member
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    Originally Posted by hech54 View Post
    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    Actually, the input to this process was an old DVD, that was in 59.97 fps on the DVD itself.
    What?
    Yes, I have many very old DVDs. And, at first, I didn't believe it either. When I first ran into it, the rip played back very funny, it would go fine for awhile, then stutter quite badly. I used MediaInfo to look at it, and it was 59.97 fps. I then looked at the vob on the DVD with MediaInfo, and bingo... it was 59.97 also. Then I started looking at some other old DVDs, and sure enough, around 20% of them were 59.97 fps. So now I just have DVDFab convert all rips to 29.97, instead of letting it produce "Same as source".

    By the way, the majority of my old DVDs are 29.97 fps. I have yet to find any of the old ones at 23.xx. Yes, newer DVDs and BD, they are almost always 23.xx, but I have been collecting DVDs for a LONG time. I remember when The Matrix first came out on DVD and crashed many DVD players because the helicopter scene had too high a bitrate.
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    Originally Posted by Hoser Rob View Post
    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    ... but I am a complete novice at understanding NTSC....
    Yes, you are ...

    BTW there is no such thing as 59.97 fps DVD video. It's either 25 or 29.97.

    Forget xilisoft or whatever the hell it's called. Use dvdfab hd decrypter (the free part of the program, which is the part that actually works well) with the dvd-9 out setting to a video_ts folder. While I often use ripping to describe ripping/encoding, really that part is the ripping part.

    Then use handbrake or vidcoder to get h.264 (which is what mediainfo means by avc ... NTSC has nothing to do with it).
    I believe strongly that you are wrong. You might be correct about current DVDs... I am not sure.

    I am happy with the programs that I use now, they produce good quality videos for my use. I was hoping to find something that would streamline my workflow. Perhaps it doesn't exist.

    I know what AVC and NTSC mean... although I am not any sort of expert. Google is my friend, and wiki a close second! Anyone can look them up. But what does MediaInfo mean when it tags a video "AVC (NTSC)"?

    If I knew the answer to that one simple question, then perhaps it would help me understand exactly what I am looking for. And wouldn't that be grand!
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    Originally Posted by Hoser Rob View Post
    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    ... but I am a complete novice at understanding NTSC....
    Yes, you are ...

    BTW there is no such thing as 59.97 fps DVD video. It's either 25 or 29.97.

    Forget xilisoft or whatever the hell it's called. Use dvdfab hd decrypter (the free part of the program, which is the part that actually works well) with the dvd-9 out setting to a video_ts folder. While I often use ripping to describe ripping/encoding, really that part is the ripping part.

    Then use handbrake or vidcoder to get h.264 (which is what mediainfo means by avc ... NTSC has nothing to do with it).
    Here is the MediaInfo display from a recent DVD rip that I put thru my process...

    Video
    ID : 1
    Format : AVC
    Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile : Baseline@L3.0
    Format settings, CABAC : No
    Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
    Codec ID : avc1
    Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
    Duration : 2h 13mn
    Bit rate mode : Variable
    Bit rate : 3 518 Kbps
    Width : 720 pixels
    Height : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 2.35:1
    Frame rate mode : Constant
    Frame rate : 23.976 fps
    Standard : NTSC
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Progressive
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.425
    Stream size : 3.29 GiB (96%)
    Encoded date : UTC 2012-06-15 17:00:13
    Tagged date : UTC 2012-06-15 17:00:13


    Please note it is AVC, NTSC, and the fps is 23.976...

    Not 25 or 29.97. This was a rip from a recent DVD that I own, X2.

    Now, to find one in 59.97, you have to go back quite a few years, an actual DVD that I own that is in 59.97 is the movie "Clue". There are others, but that is the only one I can recall at the moment, because I recently worked on it.
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  16. I don't think there's such a thing as a 59.97 frames per second DVD. I'd be interested to see an example of one.

    The MediaInfo from your recent encode doesn't make sense to me. It's probably labelled NTSC due to being 720x480, but how can the display aspect ratio be 2.35:1?? If letterboxing was added back during the process, shouldn't it be 16:9? Maybe I'm missing something......

    For example:

    ID : 1
    Format : AVC
    Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile : High@L4.1
    Format settings, CABAC : Yes
    Format settings, ReFrames : 8 frames
    Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
    Duration : 1h 53mn
    Bit rate : 1 272 Kbps
    Width : 720 pixels
    Height : 364 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 2.35:1
    Original display aspect ratio : 2.35:1
    Frame rate : 23.976 fps
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Progressive

    The above to me makes sense because the back bars have been cropped to leave 720x364 which is around 2.35:1. If your video displays correctly at 2.35:1 with a 720x480 resolution there must be some weird resizing going on.

    All your players should play an MP4 correctly regardless of the resolution. They may not display MP4s which use non-square pixels correctly (I don't know) but that may be a different issue. What happens when you try to play encodes which aren't labelled as NTSC by media info on your devices?
    I think there's probably something odd going on with your process. I rip DVDs to my hard drive and convert them to MP4 or MKV while removing the black bars so I end up with all sorts of resolutions, none of them labelled NTSC, but all of my standalone devices happily play them.
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  17. Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    Please note it is AVC, NTSC, and the fps is 23.976...

    Not 25 or 29.97. This was a rip from a recent DVD that I own, X2.

    Now, to find one in 59.97, you have to go back quite a few years, an actual DVD that I own that is in 59.97 is the movie "Clue". There are others, but that is the only one I can recall at the moment, because I recently worked on it.
    First you say you're a novice and then you proceed to argue things about which you know nothing?

    First, all NTSC DVDs output interlaced 29.97fps. That's Frames Per Second. Another way of putting it is that they output 59.94 (not 59.97) Fields Per Second (which is actually more correct). They're the same thing. But film - the stuff running in a movie theater - runs at 24fps. To go from film speed to broadcast or DVD repeated frames or fields are added. For DVD it's in the form of flags (think of it as a kind of software) which tell the player how to output these repeated fields. It's called 3:2 (or 2:3) pulldown. Ordinarily a movie for DVD is encoded as progressive 23.976fps with 3:2 pulldown added to output interlaced 29.97fps. It's possible to remove the pulldown and get back the 'source' 23.976fps, hence your 23.976fps 'rip' from DVD. For the ones that show as 59.94fps, I suspect it's from 'hard-telecined' movies, where the telecine is encoded into the movie.

    As you're a fan of Google and Wiki, you can look up all these terms - pulldown, telecine, and the like.
    Last edited by manono; 15th Jun 2012 at 15:40.
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  18. Member
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    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    I don't think there's such a thing as a 59.97 frames per second DVD. I'd be interested to see an example of one.

    The MediaInfo from your recent encode doesn't make sense to me. It's probably labelled NTSC due to being 720x480, but how can the display aspect ratio be 2.35:1?? If letterboxing was added back during the process, shouldn't it be 16:9? Maybe I'm missing something......

    For example:

    ID : 1
    Format : AVC
    Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile : High@L4.1
    Format settings, CABAC : Yes
    Format settings, ReFrames : 8 frames
    Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
    Duration : 1h 53mn
    Bit rate : 1 272 Kbps
    Width : 720 pixels
    Height : 364 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 2.35:1
    Original display aspect ratio : 2.35:1
    Frame rate : 23.976 fps
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Progressive

    The above to me makes sense because the back bars have been cropped to leave 720x364 which is around 2.35:1. If your video displays correctly at 2.35:1 with a 720x480 resolution there must be some weird resizing going on.

    All your players should play an MP4 correctly regardless of the resolution. They may not display MP4s which use non-square pixels correctly (I don't know) but that may be a different issue. What happens when you try to play encodes which aren't labelled as NTSC by media info on your devices?
    I think there's probably something odd going on with your process. I rip DVDs to my hard drive and convert them to MP4 or MKV while removing the black bars so I end up with all sorts of resolutions, none of them labelled NTSC, but all of my standalone devices happily play them.
    Well, I will sell you the DVD of Clue... $20 ought to be enough. I will look for it later and post the MediaInfo display from one of its vobs.

    As for the MediaInfo display that you think doesn't make sense, it was from an "anamorphic" DVD, where they store the 852x480 in 720x480 by scrunching it up. If you were to playback that video on a non-anamorphic renderer, then it would look all stretched in the vertical direction. All good widescreen DVDs are anamorphic like that. The non-anamorphic widescreen DVDs are really grainy and pixelated. So anyway, on an anamorphic video, the pixel dimensions are DVD standard 720x480, but the real aspect ratio is given to the renderer, so that it will know how to correctly restore the original images.

    The whole idea of "anamorphic" comes from the old film cameras, which had special lenses to squeeze a widescreen video into a normal size film frame. Of course, projectors had to have a reverse lense to reproduce the correct widescreen image on-screen. When DVDs came along, the same sort of trick was done digitally to squeenze widescreen into the 720 pixel width allowed by DVD standard.

    With HD, this all became obsolete. Everything is just standard dimensions, like 1280x720 or 1920x1080, etc. No need for anamorphic schemes anymore. And, naturally, video designed for playback on a computer, like web video, never had any real restraint on pixel dimensions.
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    What causes it to play or not play on a certain device is usually the encoding settings like CABAC, baseline profile, b-frames, reference frames etc... not NTSC, or anamorphic . In fact resized square pixel display with PAR1:1 is more compatible than anamorphic encoding on more devices. There is a higher chance the device won't play it properly with anamorphic encoding . Again, the reason why mediainfo says "NTSC" is because of 720x480 frame size - this has nothing to do with compatiblity on devices that play AVC.

    You're using "baseline" profile which prohibits b-frames and no CABAC - it's bascially the lowest form , lowest quality of AVC and should be compatible on any device that plays back AVC . The exception is the PSP, which doesn't support CAVLC) . See if you can adjust DVD Fab to use "ipod" settings - because those are really low as well

    AVC or mpeg4 part10 is a huge specification, you can have hundreds of different kinds and settings. The higher the profile e.g. high profile, the less limitations on the encoding settings - As you go higher up the "food chain" with more advanced features and settings, fewer and fewer devices will be compatible
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 15th Jun 2012 at 16:16.
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    Please note it is AVC, NTSC, and the fps is 23.976...

    Not 25 or 29.97. This was a rip from a recent DVD that I own, X2.

    Now, to find one in 59.97, you have to go back quite a few years, an actual DVD that I own that is in 59.97 is the movie "Clue". There are others, but that is the only one I can recall at the moment, because I recently worked on it.
    First you say you're a novice and then you proceed to argue things about which you know nothing?

    First, all NTSC DVDs output interlaced 29.97fps. That's Frames Per Second. Another way of putting it is that they output 59.94 (not 59.97) Fields Per Second (which is actually more correct). They're the same thing. But film - the stuff running in a movie theater - runs at 24fps. To go from film speed to broadcast or DVD repeated frames or fields are added. For DVD it's in the form of flags (think of it as a kind of software) which tell the player how to output these repeated fields. It's called 3:2 (or 2:3) pulldown. Ordinarily a movie for DVD is encoded as progressive 23.976fps with 3:2 pulldown added to output interlaced 29.97fps. It's possible to remove the pulldown and get back the 'source' 23.976fps, hence your 23.976fps 'rip' from DVD. For the ones that show as 59.94fps, I suspect it's from 'hard-telecined' movies, where the telecine is encoded into the movie.

    As you're a fan of Google and Wiki, you can look up all these terms - pulldown, telecine, and the like.
    This has all gone quite a bit afield from my purpose in this thread. That was to find a single step that could replace my current multiple steps. Since nobody has made any suggestions in that regard, the rest of this is pointless.

    I have stated many times, I am a novice in this area. Thru trial and error I have found a workflow that gets results that work for me. I don't need to understand, I don't want to understand, pulldowns, fields, interlaced, telecine, etc, etc. I just want to produce my videos faster and more efficiently. Currently it takes me around 1 hour to go from a DVD to an MP4 that is usable on my renderers. That is all I am interested in.
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  21. locotus
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    Plato:
    You are a philosopher, Thrasymachus, I replied, and well know that if you ask a person what numbers make up twelve, taking care to prohibit him whom you ask from answering twice six, or three times four, or six times two, or four times three, `for this sort of nonsense will not do for me,'--then obviously, that is your way of putting the question, no one can answer you.
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  22. Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    This has all gone quite a bit afield from my purpose in this thread. That was to find a single step that could replace my current multiple steps. Since nobody has made any suggestions in that regard, the rest of this is pointless.
    Uh-huh. Sure. You're conveniently ignoring hech54's reply. Ordinarily conversion programs don't include decrypters with them because in some countries (such as yours and mine) the very act of decrypting is illegal. It's almost always at least a 2-step process. DVDFab can because it's based beyond the reach of the MPAA. Therefore you won't find too many 1-step processes, except for DVDFab, maybe, although I certainly wouldn't ever use it for anything other than decrypting.
    Thru trial and error I have found a workflow that gets results that work for me.
    Friends don't let other friends ever use anything produced by Xilisoft. For example, if it or you converted any of your movies on NTSC DVD to 29.97fps, then you got the framerate wrong and degraded the final quality more than necessary. Movies aren't filmed at 29.97fps.
    I just want to produce my videos faster and more efficiently. Currently it takes me around 1 hour to go from a DVD to an MP4 that is usable on my renderers.
    You're complaining about it taking an hour from start to finish? You won't find anything faster, I don't believe. Unless you want to make XviD AVIs, maybe. XviD encodes faster than does the more efficient h264. Since you seem pleased with your current results, as flawed as your process is, stick with it.
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  23. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2012
    Location: USA
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    For the record, I do not use Xilisoft's program to change fps. As much as possible, I keep the fps as is from the DVD or BD. The only time I had to change it was when the DVD contained an odd rate, like the 59.xx rate I mentioned above, but then I did the fps change in DVDFab. But this whole discussion of fps is beside the point. I don't care about fps or Xilisoft or DVDFab. These are just tools. I would like a better tool.

    As for there not being many rippers that can transcode videos... well, I have 2 on my system, one by DVDFab and one by WinX, and I have read the ads for quite a few others. Almost all of them can produce various file output formats, I use MP4, and almost all of them will produce MP4. Some I have found can produce MPEG2. But none, so far, that can produce the AVC (NTSC) mixture that works for me.

    The strange thing is, the ripper doesn't have to decrypt the video! The WinX ripper that I use, the free one, works only with non-DRM media. I do not use DVDFab to break the DRM. I know it could, but it is not necessary. I use other tools for that purpose, when necessary... for fair use. I have paid for all of my DVDs and BDs. If the MPAA doesn't like what I and others are doing, why don't they sue someone? Instead they go after mega download sites. They don't sue people like me, because if they lost, it would break the DRM law. And "fair use" would most surely break it. They had a real hard time stopping the flood after they lost the lawsuits over music CDs.

    The best advice I could give the MPAA is to lobby for a tax on technology that could be used to violate their copyright. This was done with cassette tapes. It was tried with blank disc's too, but everyone figured out that data discs worked just as well. They should tax any technology that could abuse copyright. Such as media servers and UPnP renders for a start. And give the proceeds of this tax to the copyright holders.
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  24. Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    As for there not being many rippers that can transcode videos... well, I have 2 on my system, one by DVDFab and one by WinX, and I have read the ads for quite a few others. Almost all of them can produce various file output formats, I use MP4, and almost all of them will produce MP4.
    You probably don't know it but WinX and others of its ilk are Chinese (hence the decrypting and converting), steal the work of others, attach a pretty GUI, and then sell it to the ignorant. No one with any sense uses their products, especially when the open-source programs on which they rely are already available for free.

    I don't care about fps...
    You should, since by ignoring it and getting it wrong you might wind up with jerky-playing video, lower quality than necessary video, or both.
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  25. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2001
    Location: Deep in the Heart of Texas
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    Bootstrap, here's how I see things:

    You're traveling down the road and you ask for "a quicker set of directions than the one I already have been using, even though it gets me there". The person(s) you're asking ask you where you came from. Your answer is, "I asked this farmer how to get to here and he said 'take a left, go down to the big rock and veer right, then keep going until you see the brown cow, then take the fork to the left".

    The problem with directions like that is that there is to real, good absolute point(s) of reference. So you can get lost, even when you redo your trip from the same starting point. What happens at night? What happens when the cow moves?

    Do you see where I'm going with this?

    A few tips: DVD ***ONLY*** has 2 Aspect Ratios - 4:3 and 16:9, and it ***ONLY*** has 2 true storage dimensions on it - 720x480 and 720x576 (not counting 1/2D1, etc which are extremely rare for any Movies) and it ***ONLY*** has 3 framerates - 23.976 (film rate), 29.97 (ntsc rate) and 25 (pal rate) with NTSC and PAL being interlaced or progressive. BTW, it really only has 2 rates, the 23.976 is derived when ITVC'ing the 29.97 (in software).

    So there is NO way to have 59.97 on ANY DVD. There is NO way to have 720x364 (or similar) on ANY DVD. Any numbers like these that you've been getting have been the result of SOMETHING already having done some kind of conversion.

    And that's the problem: without the understanding behind the conversion(s), you're letting these softwares do things behind the scenes to the detriment of the quality and compatibility (and possibly time also).

    I would suggest you let a ripper do what it does best: RIP. To a DVD Vob file(s) without having ANY conversion done.
    Then, you use a really good freeware CONVERTER (like HandBrake, MEGUI, etc) to get it to your final output version (in ONE shot, not 2 or 3).

    But, you also cannot expect to have it be a one-size-fits-all sort of method. Because DVDs will give you multiple sizes (like I mentioned above). The steps involved in one of those options should NOT be used with some of the other "sizes".

    You also need to decide about your priorities. Is it: 1st-Singleclickstep,2nd-Quality or is it: 1st-Quality,2nd-LessSteps ?

    BTW, no matter which software(s) you end up using, you WILL be doing at least ONE conversion step, mainly because you are starting out with MPEG2/VOB files and ending up with AVC/MP4 files. As I said, it's best if this is JUST one generation of conversion, to maintain the best quality. However, since you are still doing a conversion, your time will NEVER be simple, quick & dirty. There will always be some encoding time. An Hour is pretty reasonable.

    Now, to just get the "reference points" right...

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  26. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2012
    Location: USA
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    As for there not being many rippers that can transcode videos... well, I have 2 on my system, one by DVDFab and one by WinX, and I have read the ads for quite a few others. Almost all of them can produce various file output formats, I use MP4, and almost all of them will produce MP4.
    You probably don't know it but WinX and others of its ilk are Chinese (hence the decrypting and converting), steal the work of others, attach a pretty GUI, and then sell it to the ignorant. No one with any sense uses their products, especially when the open-source programs on which they rely are already available for free.

    I don't care about fps...
    You should, since by ignoring it and getting it wrong you might wind up with jerky-playing video, lower quality than necessary video, or both.
    The WinX products that I use (2 of them) are:

    a.. Totally free!
    b.. Do NOT do any decryption or DRM defeating.

    I do not know about the other products they offer... perhaps they are scum. But the free ones are good and useful.

    Even though I do not care about fps, I try to keep it as close to the original as I can. If I run into poor quality (usually audio sync issues), I try to change the fps and that often results in a re-sync. Sometimes, not very often, I find it impossible to regain sync, then I give-up.
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  27. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2012
    Location: USA
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Bootstrap, here's how I see things:

    You're traveling down the road and you ask for "a quicker set of directions than the one I already have been using, even though it gets me there". The person(s) you're asking ask you where you came from. Your answer is, "I asked this farmer how to get to here and he said 'take a left, go down to the big rock and veer right, then keep going until you see the brown cow, then take the fork to the left".

    The problem with directions like that is that there is to real, good absolute point(s) of reference. So you can get lost, even when you redo your trip from the same starting point. What happens at night? What happens when the cow moves?

    Do you see where I'm going with this?

    A few tips: DVD ***ONLY*** has 2 Aspect Ratios - 4:3 and 16:9, and it ***ONLY*** has 2 true storage dimensions on it - 720x480 and 720x576 (not counting 1/2D1, etc which are extremely rare for any Movies) and it ***ONLY*** has 3 framerates - 23.976 (film rate), 29.97 (ntsc rate) and 25 (pal rate) with NTSC and PAL being interlaced or progressive. BTW, it really only has 2 rates, the 23.976 is derived when ITVC'ing the 29.97 (in software).

    So there is NO way to have 59.97 on ANY DVD. There is NO way to have 720x364 (or similar) on ANY DVD. Any numbers like these that you've been getting have been the result of SOMETHING already having done some kind of conversion.

    And that's the problem: without the understanding behind the conversion(s), you're letting these softwares do things behind the scenes to the detriment of the quality and compatibility (and possibly time also).

    I would suggest you let a ripper do what it does best: RIP. To a DVD Vob file(s) without having ANY conversion done.
    Then, you use a really good freeware CONVERTER (like HandBrake, MEGUI, etc) to get it to your final output version (in ONE shot, not 2 or 3).

    But, you also cannot expect to have it be a one-size-fits-all sort of method. Because DVDs will give you multiple sizes (like I mentioned above). The steps involved in one of those options should NOT be used with some of the other "sizes".

    You also need to decide about your priorities. Is it: 1st-Singleclickstep,2nd-Quality or is it: 1st-Quality,2nd-LessSteps ?

    BTW, no matter which software(s) you end up using, you WILL be doing at least ONE conversion step, mainly because you are starting out with MPEG2/VOB files and ending up with AVC/MP4 files. As I said, it's best if this is JUST one generation of conversion, to maintain the best quality. However, since you are still doing a conversion, your time will NEVER be simple, quick & dirty. There will always be some encoding time. An Hour is pretty reasonable.

    Now, to just get the "reference points" right...

    Scott
    I have no idea, but you could be right. If I ever indicated the actual physical aspect ratio on a physical DVD, then I apologize. I have no knoweldge of such things.

    The MediaInfo that I posted previously was from an MP4 that I created by ripping a DVD. Of course, it was the result of much processing, as you say. Here is another:

    Video
    ID : 1
    Format : AVC
    Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile : Baseline@L3.0
    Format settings, CABAC : No
    Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
    Codec ID : avc1
    Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
    Duration : 1h 38mn
    Bit rate mode : Variable
    Bit rate : 3 518 Kbps
    Width : 720 pixels
    Height : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 2.35:1
    Frame rate mode : Constant
    Frame rate : 29.970 fps
    Standard : NTSC
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Progressive
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.340
    Stream size : 2.43 GiB (96%)
    Encoded date : UTC 2012-06-14 06:32:58
    Tagged date : UTC 2012-06-14 06:32:58


    Please note the aspect ratio is the "Display" aspect ratio, and is 2.35 to 1. I explained in the previous message that this was the ratio needed to reconstruct the image stored in an anamorphic frame, with a physical aspect ratio of 4:3 or 16:9, I don't recall which (it could have been either, because I cropped this rip in DVDFab, so hard to tell what the original aspect ratio was).

    We are talking about "apples" and "oranges". It is quite pointless. The original point that I made was concerning this aspect ratio being compatible with the NTSC format (as you can see in the MediaInfo dump above). NOT what could be or could not be on a DVD... 2 different issues, I think. We seem to be confusing them in this discussion.

    Oh yes, almost forgot, concerning ripping to vob files... been there, done that. That is essentially where I started. Problem is that I have had trouble transcoding some vobs, so rather than deal with that issue, DVDFab presented an easy solution, just rip to MP4 direct. And I did that for several years... a one step operation. But then my family installed several UPnP clients, and the iPad was the only one that could smoothly handle all the MP4s I had created... around 400 of them. So I started looking for a way to transcode these existing MP4 into something more friendly to blu-ray players and such. They seem very picky. At first MPEG2 seemed the best format, but for some reason, I had alot of audio sync issues, the mp2 files would play fine on a Sony blu-ray, but be out of sync on my iPad (using GoodPlayer). So I tried the PS3 profile in Xilisoft (one of 100s of programs I tried), and it produced the file whose MediaInfo dump is shown above. It has this weird AVC (NTSC) tag that I don't understand. But it WORKS!

    Now I was hoping to get back to a 1 step operation, like before UPnP entered the picture. I could go with on-the-fly transcoding, but it uses more cpu power than I want to dedicate... I tried it with Serviio, and it works, just chews up horse power.

    So I am not really interested in the internal workings of DVDs, sorry. I am, you might say, a lay man. And I just want to play my videos on the UPnP renderers in the house. I found a way to do it, and now I am looking for a way to streamline and make the process more efficient. Thats all.
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  28. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2008
    Location: Near the Beach
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    If there's a program like you're looking for: I would not be interested, nor would I use it.
    For me ripping and encoding are 2 processes, and I feel like raping my DVD drive, forcing it to read while feeding an encoder.
    So, rip it fast to your HD, and then encode it correctly (just start with different presets).
    btw. I also would never use a program that encodes and burns in one process.
    But maybe I'm just too fussy
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  29. Member
    Join Date: Jun 2012
    Location: USA
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    Originally Posted by NoBuddy View Post
    If there's a program like you're looking for: I would not be interested, nor would I use it.
    For me ripping and encoding are 2 processes, and I feel like raping my DVD drive, forcing it to read while feeding an encoder.
    So, rip it fast to your HD, and then encode it correctly (just start with different presets).
    btw. I also would never use a program that encodes and burns in one process.
    But maybe I'm just too fussy
    Actually, at one point, I did burn alot of backup DVDs... many many moons ago. The trick was on me, when I went back to get them years later, many of the burns were bad. A waste of my time and money. But it did teach a few lessons, like the value of good media!

    I don't mind re-coding... (except I wish I could do it in one step), when I do my first rip, I select a high bitrate and pixel dimensions as big as will get the most detail without the letterbox included. This gives me the leanest most detailed mp4 that I know how to produce. Then I plug it into the final production program and ask for about half the bitrate of the first rip. Since my target bitrate (to keep my lan happy) is around 4000, I try to rip at 8000, but many DVDs don't have that kind of bitrate, especially older ones. So I take the highest rate I think I can get. As someone here said, it is not a set it and forget it process. I am always tinkering and changing how I work. Always trying something new, trying to push the envelope.

    Actually I just did a rip today, a new DVD with a good detailed movie on it, lots of action, so lots of bits. I did the rip into an mp4 at 8000 and it took me about 35 minutes. Then I did the final production, upscaling to 720p, and it took around 50 minutes. This on an i7-920 oc'd to 3.5ghz. So about 1.5 hours for a 2.5 hour movie that was pushing the envelope on a DVD9. The result looks great to me, on my living room TV.
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  30. Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    Well, I will sell you the DVD of Clue... $20 ought to be enough. I will look for it later and post the MediaInfo display from one of its vobs.

    As for the MediaInfo display that you think doesn't make sense, it was from an "anamorphic" DVD, where they store the 852x480 in 720x480 by scrunching it up. If you were to playback that video on a non-anamorphic renderer, then it would look all stretched in the vertical direction. All good widescreen DVDs are anamorphic like that. The non-anamorphic widescreen DVDs are really grainy and pixelated. So anyway, on an anamorphic video, the pixel dimensions are DVD standard 720x480, but the real aspect ratio is given to the renderer, so that it will know how to correctly restore the original images.
    I wouldn't be trying to look clever by offering to sell anyone a clue if I were you. First..... you need to at least convince the mark you own one and so far I don't think anyone in this thread is buying.
    I fully understand anamorphic video. DVDs have two aspect ratios. 16:9 and 4:3 (which includes any black bars). The resolution is always 720x480 (NTSC). Yet after your convoluted process you appear to have ended up with a 720x480 encode with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio. The only way the final display aspect ratio should change is if you crop some of the video. What's left (720x364 for example) will be stretched out on playback in exactly the same way as the original DVD (the shape of the pixels hasn't changed) and will therefore have a different display aspect ratio (2.35:1 for example).

    Unless you're doing some particularly odd upscaling which increases the vertical resolution without increasing the horizontal resolution to achieve 2.35:1..... or something like that. Is that it? Are you removing the black bars and stretching what's left back out to 480? That'd make sense I guess.... if the conversion software is clever it might change the pixel aspect ratio rather than let you make a mess of the display aspect ratio.... although if that's what's happening I'm not sure what the point of the resizing might be. Or why MediaInfo labels it as NTSC.

    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    So I tried the PS3 profile in Xilisoft (one of 100s of programs I tried), and it produced the file whose MediaInfo dump is shown above. It has this weird AVC (NTSC) tag that I don't understand. But it WORKS!
    Personally I think it's more likely you were originally using the wrong AVC level or doing something else odd which your media players don't play. Maybe using the PS3 setting you began enforcing encoder restrictions which the standalone players like. Can you post the mediainfo from an encode they won't play? Standalone devices, even Bluray players, are just as unlikely to display anamorphic MP4s correctly as they are to display them properly. We have a couple of Bluray players in this house as well as a couple of TVs with built in media players and only one of the Bluray players displays anamorphic MP4s correctly. Chances are it's the fact your current encodes use an AVC level of 3.0 with one reference frame which lets all your devices play your encodes and the "NTSC" label isn't actually relevant.

    These days, if you encode using standard x264 settings with an AVC level of 4.1 you should be pretty safe when it comes to standalone devices. Older players may require a lower AVC level. The final resolution doesn't matter. Anamorphic video should play but may or may not display correctly. You're basically saying you're unable to encode video in the same way the rest of us do and be able to play it on your devices while the rest of us can, and you seem to be looking for different ways to re-invent the wheel as a result.

    Originally Posted by Bootstrap View Post
    So I am not really interested in the internal workings of DVDs, sorry. I am, you might say, a lay man. And I just want to play my videos on the UPnP renderers in the house. I found a way to do it, and now I am looking for a way to streamline and make the process more efficient. Thats all.
    Which would be to do it the way most people do it. The DVDFab converter is not considered to be particularly good but it rips DVDs fine. You'll invariably come across the odd "problem" DVD when encoding, but 99% of us rip the DVDs to our hard drive and most convert the vob files to MP4 or MKV with a program such as MeGUI, Handbrake, ffcoder, Ripbot or HDConvertToX. Look up the supported media types for your devices and go with the "lowest common denominator" AVC level. Use either anamorphic encoding or convert to square pixels if your playback device doesn't support non-square pixels. That's all you should need to do and it works for the rest of us. Encoding a DVD twice while resizing it twice, as it appears you might be doing, well it's hardly the optimum way to do it. Not to mention encoding using a particular bitrate.... nobody does that anymore. These days it's all quality based encoding.
    Last edited by hello_hello; 16th Jun 2012 at 02:30.
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