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  1. I'm trying to do the following;

    Record all home videos from VHS and 8mm tapes via firewire using Vidi on Mac which saves as a .dv file with interlaced image, which all files are then converted to an mp4 file (or mkv, I'll explain later) using the h264 codec at 4500kbps for near lossless compression and AAC audio encoding, thus ideally allowing me to play these movies back in stock operating system applications without codecs installed (Quicktime in OS X or WMP in Windows), a 2nd Gen. WDTV (not the Live version) and eventually a Boxee Box. However, I'd like to incorporate Cover Art for all of my movies (which I will be making myself since theyre home movies).

    I don't care for compatibility on phones, tablets and especially the AppleTV.

    The problems I'm facing are numerous, I've tried googling everything online but there is simply too much to research and its driving me NUTS. I've lurked this forum many times but now I'm hoping someone can shed some light on my issues;

    1) When recording with Vidi and opening the saved .dv files, the video is displayed differently across all my Mac based applications; VLC displays an interlaces image 720px x 480px with black bars on the left and right and the actual image centred as 640px. Quicktime 7 Pro displays the image at 640x480 but its interlaced, and Quicktime X displays the image as deinterlaced but its SLIGHTLY cropped. The original VHS recordings have about 3px of a black bar on the left side, which I'm guessing is due to an odd feed from the VHS player. But why do the others not crop, while Quicktime X does AND deinterlaced?

    2) Using Handbrake (on Mac) to convert my movies using High Profile however adjusted to
    -h264 codec
    - 4500kbps video encoding bitrate (2-pass encoding)
    -MP4 container
    - audio set to AAC (faac) @ 160kbps,
    -anamorphic as none and the video set to 640x480
    -chapter markers turned off
    -constant frame rate & same as source
    The outputted video file gives me audio and video out of sync. The audio sync gets worse as the video continues to play (if its a 2 hour video, it goes out of sync by a few seconds).

    However, using the SAME settings but changing it to an MKV container, the audio is PERFECTLY in sync, but the problem is now I cannot embed my own Cover Art and compatibility across platforms is greatly diminished. What could Handbrake be doing with the MP4 container that causes my audio to go out of sync?

    3) Seeking (fast forwarding) in MP4 is awful. No matter what the bitrate is, or how complex the compression is in MP4, seeking through the final outputted videos is pretty lousy, not so much in Quicktime but definitely in VLC. Here's what happens: in a 2 hour long video, clicking to any point in the movie, lets say for example, going directly to the 30 minute mark of the movie, causes the video to pause for a split second, play the audio for split second (but no video) and then play the same split second of audio AGAIN but with video and the video plays as normal. When clicking and holding onto the marker to seek (scan) through the video, it lags quite badly. In the raw DV format, seeking is instantaneous... but more impressive is how fast seeking executes in the MKV container using the same codec. Why does the MP4 container offer such poor seeking in comparison to MKVs very fast seeking? Is there a workaround or is this just a downfall of MP4?

    4) When using iFFmpeg (on Mac) to encode my movies, both MKV and MP4 containers have all my audio perfectly in sync, but now I can't set the bitrate to 4500kbps, it only recognizes 256, 512, 1024, 2048 and so on. Truthfully, at 1024 the quality is great none the less, but I'd like adjust it to EXACTLY at 4500kbps just like in Handbrake. However, when I set it to manual there are two options; one of the multiple of twos and then an input box to specify the bit rate. No matter what I set it to, it always applies the first selection from the predefined list of bitrates. Is there a golden rule or something that h264 videos must be encoded in exponent values of 2? I just downloaded Xvid4PSP for Windows and it has the same issue, I'm not seeing a direct/custom bitrate input??? (I should mention, Xvid4PSP does not seem to want to import my .dv recordings, can someone suggest software that WILL convert from DV?) The other problem is, that while my audio is in sync, the video plays back slowly on my WDTV (where as with Handbrake encoded files, the video played smoothly, but audio is always out of sync with MP4 but with MKV from Handbrake audio is always in sync).

    5) Pixel Format. What is this? Using the 'default' settings in iFFmpeg, the outputted video file renderes as a complete grey screen with minimal detail from the actual movie. However, changing it to RGB24 or YUV420p renders the video just fine. Is there a 'standard' Pixel Format setting which will give cross platform compatibility? Why would default not work??

    6) Comparing still frames from the original .dv files to the encoded/compressed files, I am noticing image quality IMPROVEMENT! For some reason in all applications; VLC, Quicktime 7 Pro and Quicktime X the .dv files produce a slightly blurry and typically CROPPED image. But when I compress the files to MP4 or MKV, the 640x480px output shows a sharper image and the 3px black line on the left side. I've taken screen captures from a number of sources using the SAME frame and everytime I convert the image quality is always better. WHY are the originals blurry and cropped when played back but the end result is actually better??

    7) Going back to MKV, the official Matroska website states that images can be embedded as cover art. I've downloaded the sample movie file they provide and while using Perian in OS X, the cover art DOES show up when viewing the files. Of course, adjusting these is not possible like with MP4 where the cover art can be added simply through itunes. Therefor, if MKVs can support cover art, is there a simple application that can INSERT the cover art without encoding, muxing or anything of the sort? Logically speaking, it should be done more or less, or exactly (to be honest) just like regular audio MP3 files; open MP3 software player, open library of music, edit ID3 tags and insert cover art by copy/paste or other means. Why is it NOT this simple in MKVs? Matroska states this container has the future in mind. So why does it and the community fail so badly to bring forth such a simple solution to such a simple feature?

    Thank you INSANELY for any help on any of my issues! Its a long thread, but hopefully someone can shed some light on these questions!
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  2. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    A couple of thoughts:

    1. DV from home VHS & 8mm is supposed to be interlaced. The only reason you should be deinterlacing would be if your player/display combination couldn't handle it correctly (rare these days). Deinterlacing incurs loss through guessing. Why do it, since your player/display is probably going to be doing it anyway? (usually better)

    2. Just so you understand, h.264 @ 4500kbps is nowhere near "lossless". Visually it might be totally acceptable to you, but that signal is compressed 35:1 compared to Uncompressed 4:2:2 SD video, and is 5.6:1 compared to DV-compressed 4:2:0/4:1:1 video. There IS loss. Enjoy it, but understand you're not getting a free lunch, there are compromises being made.

    3. So, you've run across the problem with players on Macs that don't make clear what they're doing with the AR (aspect ratio). Not surprising. They're notorious for adding to the AR confusion. Know this - DV never uses square pixels (unlike h.264 which often does). NTSC DV video is anamorphic 720x480, which has a Storage AR of 3:2 (which you can ignore for now), but a Pixel AR of 10/11 which gives you the equivalent 4:3 Display AR that would normally be given by a square-pixelled 640x480 image. In quicktime, it uses the weird nomenclature of "classic aperture" vs. "production aperture" vs. "clean aperture" vs. "encoded pixels aperture". If you want the correct Display AR with NO cropping, you should use "Production aperture". QT7 defaults to one way (production) and QTX another (clean), which is why you're getting mixed messages. Plus, none of them are totally correct, because QT reports that those "equivalent" 640x480 square pixels are ACTUALLY what's existing (which is patently false).

    4. So, you SHOULD have a few pixels on L & R edges that are blank (to be expected) and it SHOULD be interlaced.

    5. Why are you using High Profile for SD material? Normally, that would/should be used for HD material. Likely, you want MainProfile@MainLevel (3.1?)

    6. Start testing these settings out with other non-Mac players/displays to make sure you're getting what you really need.

    7. Seeking is mainly a function of GOP size (I-frame placement). You're likely using too long of a GOP length. Try a Closed GOP with between 15-30 frames max. and see if your seeking problems go away. Note: Mkv has features that might ease the difficulty of Long GOPs, but the main problem here is the long GOPs not the container. This can sometimes be helped by Remuxing (which updates the indexing).

    8. Compare apples to apples - Take your VHS and display it on your TV. Then take your DV capture and display it on your TV (through a player that DOESN'T deinterlace). Then take your h.264 and display it on your TV. That's how you make a good comparison.

    9. Send us a few text outputs from MediaInfo/MediaInspector that show your DV source and your variously-encode h.264+AAC files.

    10. Pixel format could mean a number of things, but from your context I'm assuming it's referring to ColorSpace (aka "RGB24", "YUV 4:2:2", "YUV 4:2:0", etc). NTSC DV material is 4:1:1 (different from but equivalent to 4:2:0) and h.264 is usually 4:2:0. So that's what you want to go with. That actually OUGHT to be the default.

    11. Did a simple google search of "MKV insert cover" and got this: http://tehparadox.com/forum/f85/adding-cover-art-mkv-movies-208240
    which pretty much explains that even though you can insert them via MKVToolnix/MKVMergeGUI, WDTV doesn't support cover art embedded in MKV's anyway, only MP4. Though they also mention the "jpeg thumbnail in the same folder" workaround...
    Wasn't that hard to look up.

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  3. I'm a Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
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    Moved to the mac forum where you can get more help.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
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  4. Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    A couple of thoughts:

    1. DV from home VHS & 8mm is supposed to be interlaced. The only reason you should be deinterlacing would be if your player/display combination couldn't handle it correctly (rare these days). Deinterlacing incurs loss through guessing. Why do it, since your player/display is probably going to be doing it anyway? (usually better)
    That's a good point, but seeing the DV results in Quicktime the image is automatically deinterlaced with a blurry image. VLC doesn't deinterlace by default, I have to set it to deinterlace, and even then it still doesnt do it. When I change the deinterlace mode, the video image becomes larger and turns completely black. This is evident in Windows as well on VLC. Windows Media Player nor Windows Media Centre recognize my DV files.

    2. Just so you understand, h.264 @ 4500kbps is nowhere near "lossless". Visually it might be totally acceptable to you, but that signal is compressed 35:1 compared to Uncompressed 4:2:2 SD video, and is 5.6:1 compared to DV-compressed 4:2:0/4:1:1 video. There IS loss. Enjoy it, but understand you're not getting a free lunch, there are compromises being made.
    Comparing it to the original files images as well as whats recording on screen via Vidi, there is of course loss, but its not at all noticeable during play. I'd have to pause the movie and compare the same frames. I looked at smoothing in wood textures and grass detail. The difference is almost none and I'm willing to live with that kind of loss. Of course, I'd prefer a compressed non-lossy file, but I'm sure that would open up another can of worms with compatibility. I say that because all of the file conversions I'm making are for my parents. Ultimately they will be able to play all the movies on any of their devices without a hitch (mainly macbooks, a WDTV and the Boxee Box which I'm planning on buying them).

    3. So, you've run across the problem with players on Macs that don't make clear what they're doing with the AR (aspect ratio). Not surprising. They're notorious for adding to the AR confusion. Know this - DV never uses square pixels (unlike h.264 which often does). NTSC DV video is anamorphic 720x480, which has a Storage AR of 3:2 (which you can ignore for now), but a Pixel AR of 10/11 which gives you the equivalent 4:3 Display AR that would normally be given by a square-pixelled 640x480 image. In quicktime, it uses the weird nomenclature of "classic aperture" vs. "production aperture" vs. "clean aperture" vs. "encoded pixels aperture". If you want the correct Display AR with NO cropping, you should use "Production aperture". QT7 defaults to one way (production) and QTX another (clean), which is why you're getting mixed messages. Plus, none of them are totally correct, because QT reports that those "equivalent" 640x480 square pixels are ACTUALLY what's existing (which is patently false).
    Okay, that makes sense. Would you say that using Handbrake (or other) and disabling anamorphic and converting it to square pixels would be fine while cropping it to 640 pixels in width? This is what I want, a normal digital copy of my videos without any anamorphic, AR issues. I just want a 640x480 video, that just like a 640x480 jpeg.... except with frames and audio. I'm probably being overly simplistic with my explanation and disregarding some technical details I may be unaware of, but ultimately the videos should be a fairly straight forward solution.

    4. So, you SHOULD have a few pixels on L & R edges that are blank (to be expected) and it SHOULD be interlaced.
    Ok, but as mentioned, depending on the software used, deinterlacing isnt perfect, and who knows if the WDTV or Boxee Box will display interlaced video as deinterlaced.

    5. Why are you using High Profile for SD material? Normally, that would/should be used for HD material. Likely, you want MainProfile@MainLevel (3.1?)
    Will this still give good results without much loss?

    6. Start testing these settings out with other non-Mac players/displays to make sure you're getting what you really need.
    Already doing so with other converters and players in Windows. A friend of mine has a Boxee Box, once I find a solution that works just fine across all my own current devices, the final step will be trying out at my friends house on his Boxee Box.

    7. Seeking is mainly a function of GOP size (I-frame placement). You're likely using too long of a GOP length. Try a Closed GOP with between 15-30 frames max. and see if your seeking problems go away. Note: Mkv has features that might ease the difficulty of Long GOPs, but the main problem here is the long GOPs not the container. This can sometimes be helped by Remuxing (which updates the indexing).
    Thanks! I'll definitely give this a shot.

    8. Compare apples to apples - Take your VHS and display it on your TV. Then take your DV capture and display it on your TV (through a player that DOESN'T deinterlace). Then take your h.264 and display it on your TV. That's how you make a good comparison.
    Not an easy task comparing direct frames, pausing a VHS tape will cause the image to jitter a little bit. Theres also no way to screen shot it. What I typically do is screen capture the same frames from my converted files and compared them to the original frames. If it looks clean, its a pass.

    9. Send us a few text outputs from MediaInfo/MediaInspector that show your DV source and your variously-encode h.264+AAC files.
    The odd thing about this, is that most of the time VLC doesn't display the media info. I could use Quicktime I suppose. I'll need to boot into OS X though (currently on the Windows side).

    10. Pixel format could mean a number of things, but from your context I'm assuming it's referring to ColorSpace (aka "RGB24", "YUV 4:2:2", "YUV 4:2:0", etc). NTSC DV material is 4:1:1 (different from but equivalent to 4:2:0) and h.264 is usually 4:2:0. So that's what you want to go with. That actually OUGHT to be the default.
    I see, so its safe to keep using YUV420p? I've been doing so for all my conversions with iFFmpeg since....

    11. Did a simple google search of "MKV insert cover" and got this: http://tehparadox.com/forum/f85/adding-cover-art-mkv-movies-208240
    which pretty much explains that even though you can insert them via MKVToolnix/MKVMergeGUI, WDTV doesn't support cover art embedded in MKV's anyway, only MP4. Though they also mention the "jpeg thumbnail in the same folder" workaround...
    Wasn't that hard to look up.

    Scott
    The problem with adding photos next to the file (or inside a folder) is that the cover art doesnt display in the thumbnails on the video. In the end I'm stuck with a movie file and a jpeg, one with the cover art and one with a blank icon image of VLC (my default player).

    I've tried using MKVToolnix for MKV files, but I have no idea if I did it right. Basically I added the photo as an attachment and started muxing. File seems to play alright, but I don't see an icon. Also, I didn't see an option that stated 'cover art' or anything of the sort (I'm assuming its named differently?)

    THANK YOU TONS! Holy crap, your response was/is stellar
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  5. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    don't crop to 640x480, resize from 720x480 anamorphic pixels to 640x480 square pixel format(1:1).

    something is wrong with your system if vlc deinterlace mode shows black screen. vid card problem? windows on osx problem?

    download and use the program "mediainfo" it's free. test mode make it easy to cut and paste the output here.
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  6. Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    don't crop to 640x480, resize from 720x480 anamorphic pixels to 640x480 square pixel format(1:1).

    something is wrong with your system if vlc deinterlace mode shows black screen. vid card problem? windows on osx problem?

    download and use the program "mediainfo" it's free. test mode make it easy to cut and paste the output here.
    Here's some information about my DV files;



    I don't see any settings in Handbrake or iFFmpeg to resize to 1:1...??
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  7. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    1:1 is also called square pixels. it's the normal pixel aspect ratio of h264. so don't crop to 640 from 720, just resize, keeping the aspect ration at 4:3. handbrake probably doesn't give any options for par.
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  8. Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    1:1 is also called square pixels. it's the normal pixel aspect ratio of h264. so don't crop to 640 from 720, just resize, keeping the aspect ration at 4:3. handbrake probably doesn't give any options for par.

    Well, I Handbrake does have these settings;



    However, no matter what I do, any file encoded using the MP4 container is constantly giving my audio sync problems. It seems as though MKV via Handbrake is giving me the best and most reliable results.
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  9. aBigMeanie aedipuss's Avatar
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    put cropping to custom and make them all 0. display width should be 640 par width 640 that makes it (1:1). not sure why par height says 710, it should be 480.
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  10. Originally Posted by aedipuss View Post
    put cropping to custom and make them all 0. display width should be 640 par width 640 that makes it (1:1). not sure why par height says 710, it should be 480.
    Well, that works however my audio is completely out of sync when using Handbrake and the MP4 container. I'm getting ridiculously frustrated with all of this jive.

    MKV works brilliantly from Handbrake, but doesnt display any cover art, isnt compatible with a lot of software and hardware and does not display thumbnail previews in OS X unless using Perian which needs MKV files to be opened by default with Quicktime (so VLC isnt the default application).

    MP4 from Handbrake is a complete mess.

    I've tried using a multitude of presets with iFFmpeg and thats another tragedy which isn't even reliable. The problem with it that I've found now, is that while it DOES give me correct audio sync and actually good seeking capabilities, most of my videos jitter in frame rate. This is true in Quicktime and even more true on my WDTV. Its almost the same thing that happens when you take a 30fps video and convert it to 24fps. While the frames are correct, it has that weird skipping effect. This is pretty much the same problem I'm having with iFFmpeg no matter what the codec or container. The weird thing is, SOME of my DV recordings *do* playback just fine after theyve been converted to MP4/h264 via iFFmpeg. However, some is not reliable and I need a reliable encoder.

    I have about 20-30 home movies I need to digitize and convert to a universal MP4 format with minimal image quality loss with a reasonably small file size. Ie; currently a 30 minute video @ 640x480 from VHS is sitting around 800mb after conversion set to 4500kbps. I'm fine with that size, although I *know* it could be smaller.
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  11. Member
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    You probably want to bob deinterlace instead of single rate and throwing away half the fields (59.94p instead of 29.97p) - motion will be smoother. That's how it will look when viewed directly from the camera hooked up to the TV , very smooth. That might explain what you are calling "jitter". AFAIK Handbrake still can't do this

    DV is usually noisy, you can compress it more if you pre process with some denoising

    There aren't as many options on a mac, but you can try avidemux as a GUI (yadif 2x bob filter) . ffmpeg as command line can call yadif bob as well, I don't know if iffmpeg or ffmpegx can
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  12. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    You probably want to bob deinterlace instead of single rate and throwing away half the fields (59.94p instead of 29.97p) - motion will be smoother. That's how it will look when viewed directly from the camera hooked up to the TV , very smooth. That might explain what you are calling "jitter". AFAIK Handbrake still can't do this

    DV is usually noisy, you can compress it more if you pre process with some denoising

    There aren't as many options on a mac, but you can try avidemux as a GUI (yadif 2x bob filter) . ffmpeg as command line can call yadif bob as well, I don't know if iffmpeg or ffmpegx can
    These are the settings in iFFmpeg:





    I haven't been using YADIF as I'm unaware of its use or its existence (until now) but for the time being I was using the 'regular' deinterlace call found here:



    It looks like a 'regular' deinterlace, maybe thats whats causing it? I should probably try encoding with out that call, and then again with YADIF (though I don't know what settings to use).

    I should mention, that while I'm doing nearly all of my recording and conversion through Mac OS X, I do have windows on my laptop in another partition, so if theres a better/more reliable solution to converting in Windows, I can definitely give it a go.

    Thanks!
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  13. Member
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    "1 frame for each field" should give you 59.94p . You can check the results with mediainfo (or mediainfo mac). Visually, the motion will be much smoother (like the original)

    DV is always BFF (bottom field first), although if you leave it on "auto" it should be ok

    I should mention, that while I'm doing nearly all of my recording and conversion through Mac OS X, I do have windows on my laptop in another partition, so if theres a better/more reliable solution to converting in Windows, I can definitely give it a go.
    There are many you can try on windows - they will usually get DV correct because it's CFR. Handbrake (mac or pc version) sometimes does some funny VFR conversion if you don't specify otherwise . e.g. ripbot, megui, staxrip

    If you want to get more fancy, there are slower, higher quality bob deinterlacers, but you have to learn a bit of avisynth e.g. QTGMC. (yadif and "regular" deinterlacers like jes deinterlacer on mac, or mpegstreamclip do a poor job of interpolation, and leave "jaggie" artifacts)

    Most people don't use a 2pass encoding with a set bitrate unless you need a specific filesize - They use 1 pass CRF encoding. This allocates proper bitrate for the quality specified. Do a search on rate control methods, it's discussed to death

    I mentioned prefiltering earlier- this can improve your bitrate requirements substantially

    The other option is to encode it interlaced, 720x480 as the original , and let the player or device do the deinterlacing on the fly. It depends on how you plan to watch it
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  14. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    "1 frame for each field" should give you 59.94p . You can check the results with mediainfo (or mediainfo mac). Visually, the motion will be much smoother (like the original)

    DV is always BFF (bottom field first), although if you leave it on "auto" it should be ok

    I should mention, that while I'm doing nearly all of my recording and conversion through Mac OS X, I do have windows on my laptop in another partition, so if theres a better/more reliable solution to converting in Windows, I can definitely give it a go.
    There are many you can try on windows - they will usually get DV correct because it's CFR. Handbrake (mac or pc version) sometimes does some funny VFR conversion if you don't specify otherwise . e.g. ripbot, megui, staxrip

    If you want to get more fancy, there are slower, higher quality bob deinterlacers, but you have to learn a bit of avisynth e.g. QTGMC. (yadif and "regular" deinterlacers like jes deinterlacer on mac, or mpegstreamclip do a poor job of interpolation, and leave "jaggie" artifacts)

    Most people don't use a 2pass encoding with a set bitrate unless you need a specific filesize - They use 1 pass CRF encoding. This allocates proper bitrate for the quality specified. Do a search on rate control methods, it's discussed to death

    I mentioned prefiltering earlier- this can improve your bitrate requirements substantially

    The other option is to encode it interlaced, 720x480 as the original , and let the player or device do the deinterlacing on the fly. It depends on how you plan to watch it
    Well, I tried using YADIF, and while my results seem to be smooth on the computer, both in VLC and in Quicktime, I'm still getting really jittery results on the WDTV. I've tried non-interlaced as well, and a bunch of other presets along with the MKV container. I also tried using older binary of FFmpeg without success. Given that its still having problems EVEN WITH the MKV container, I have a suspicion that its got something to do with either the iFFmpeg encoder or the WDTV itself. It is after all a first (maybe 2nd) gen player from years back, I don't expect it to play back everything perfectly, which is why I am going to be purchasing a Boxee Box. However, that does not mean I should omit compatibility with poorer hardware/software. What is very strange though is that my WDTV has never played an MP4 file with correct audio sync, but with iFFmpeg it plays the videos perfectly in sync but with jittery frame rate. Its very odd.

    I've uploaded my results if anyone is willing to help out and take a look at my files.

    These are 20 second clips, which include the MP4 results from iFFmpeg and Handbrake along with the original DV. Each file has its corresponding info file take from MediaInfo which gives all the specs on the converted files as well as the original DV recording (unedited 20 second clip) from Vidi.

    www.ungraphic.com/video

    You mention to not deinterlace it though depending on how I watch my videos. As with all things being digital now, these movie files will be played directly, as in, opened from VLC, Quicktime on a computer or played on a Boxee Box or other solution on an HDTV. Quicktime 7 doesnt deinterlace automatically, but Quicktime X does. VLC has issues with deinterlacing, sometimes crashing and sometimes not recognizing interlaced content. That said, deinterlaced would be best.

    This is my first time taking on such a task with video, I had no idea it would be this complicated for something that one would think would be so simple. I'm used to converting movies from my digital point and shoot cameras as well as dSLR where none of this interlaced or frame rate issues have ever been present, all my content appeared as a normal 640x480 or 1920x1080 pixel content without any anamorphic or other crap to deal with. Basically I was assuming content to be sized just like regular jpeg images; what the image is sized it will be rendered AS SUCH from any device/software and will scale accordingly. It *should* be this obvious with video content. I do hope these complications won't be evident in the future with everything going digital, theres absolutely no reason why things would continue to be so messy.... oh yeah, and the whole PAL/NTSC crap needs to go too. With the existence of digital TVs, theres no need for that mess either. I just hope I don't run in to any NEW problems when I get around to capturing my content from my 8mm Video8 tapes!

    /rant
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  15. Member
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    can you upload a small sample of "jittery frame rate" ? EDIT: whoops, didn't see the link... I 'll have a look

    is it forward/back/forward/back ? because that is just wrong field order

    or is it slightly choppy motion , not silky smooth - that would be 29.97p vs 59.94p .


    This is my first time taking on such a task with video, I had no idea it would be this complicated for something that one would think would be so simple. I'm used to converting movies from my digital point and shoot cameras as well as dSLR where none of this interlaced or frame rate issues have ever been present, all my content appeared as a normal 640x480 or 1920x1080 pixel content without any anamorphic or other crap to deal with. Basically I was assuming content to be sized just like regular jpeg images; what the image is sized it will be rendered AS SUCH from any device/software and will scale accordingly. It *should* be this obvious with video content. I do hope these complications won't be evident in the future with everything going digital, theres absolutely no reason why things would continue to be so messy.... oh yeah, and the whole PAL/NTSC crap needs to go too. With the existence of digital TVs, theres no need for that mess either. I just hope I don't run in to any NEW problems when I get around to capturing my content from my 8mm Video8 tapes!
    Nobody makes DV camcorders anymore, so don't worry

    Strictly speaking PAL/NTSC don't refer to HD formats, but well still have 50Hz vs. 60Hz issues with HD and blu-ray



    Given that its still having problems EVEN WITH the MKV container, I have a suspicion that its got something to do with either the iFFmpeg encoder or the WDTV itself.
    I doubt it. I had a 1st gen WDTV, and it had other problems like overheating but nothing like this
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  16. Member
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    Yes the 2 encoded files are 29.97p (single rate deinterlaced), that explains the motion issue. Original video is 59.94 fields per second. when watching that on a TV , it gets bob deinterlaced to 59.94 frames per second - essentially each field (which is like a half frame) represents a unique moment in time and becomes a frame . By single rate deinterlacing, you throw away 1/2 that information

    There are some other issues you might want to consider in addition to your other problems:

    1) legalizing levels (black and white level go Y' 0-255 and is "illegal". There is recoverable black and white detail that are crushed and will not be seen on display unless you correct it

    2) denoising (this will help with compression, and make more pleasant to watch)

    3) stabilizing the footage since it was a free held shot (this will help with compression as well, and make more pleasant to watch)

    4) changing rate control (using 2pass set bitrate usually isn't good practice unless you need a very specific filesize - you bitrate starve content that requires more bitrate, and you allocate too much to content that doesn't need it)




    Not sure about the sync issues, that will take some more digging into. Maybe start by checking the mediainfo reports on a long (1hr + ) sample, check the video & audio lengths. ALSO: don't use VLC on a mac, it's not nearly the same as the PC version. If you do tests on a mac use Mplayer OSX Extended . Since rewrapping into MKV seems to fix it so I doubt it's an encoding issue, sounds more like a playback issue

    I've got to step out and I'll make a reply tonight or tomorrow, but hopefully that will get you started in the right direction
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 24th May 2012 at 18:29.
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  17. ^Thanks! I'll try to play around with the settings some more, see if I can get iFFmpeg to work right. I only submitted the Handbrake video as something to compare to for the proper video frame rate. I really don't want to be using Handbrake.

    I've uploaded right now a quick 2 minute video that shows the WDTV playing back an mp4 file from iFFmpeg (which is choppy) then a video from Handbrake (which is fine) then another mp4 file which shows the audio sync problem, though not audible, but like I said, its a known problem with the WDTV so I'm not overly concerned about Western Digital's poor job on the product.
    Last edited by kamil; 24th May 2012 at 18:52.
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  18. Almost forgot to point out something;


    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Yes the 2 encoded files are 29.97p (single rate deinterlaced), that explains the motion issue. Original video is 59.94 fields per second. when watching that on a TV , it gets bob deinterlaced to 59.94 frames per second - essentially each field (which is like a half frame) represents a unique moment in time and becomes a frame . By single rate deinterlacing, you throw away 1/2 that information
    But if both videos are encoded at 29.97p, howcome my Handbrake encodes play perfectly fine on my WDTV (sans audio) while the iFFmpeg encodes have the jitter?

    Apparently the audio sync is a bug in Handbrake, I got an answer from a member on the HB forum. Using the nightly build fixes it.
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  19. Member
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    Originally Posted by kamil View Post
    Almost forgot to point out something;


    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Yes the 2 encoded files are 29.97p (single rate deinterlaced), that explains the motion issue. Original video is 59.94 fields per second. when watching that on a TV , it gets bob deinterlaced to 59.94 frames per second - essentially each field (which is like a half frame) represents a unique moment in time and becomes a frame . By single rate deinterlacing, you throw away 1/2 that information
    But if both videos are encoded at 29.97p, howcome my Handbrake encodes play perfectly fine on my WDTV (sans audio) while the iFFmpeg encodes have the jitter?

    Apparently the audio sync is a bug in Handbrake, I got an answer from a member on the HB forum. Using the nightly build fixes it.

    It seems you have a playback issue with the WDTV, or some compatibility issues . There are different kinds of "MP4" and the muxer can make a difference with some finicky hardware

    handbrake
    Format : MPEG-4
    Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
    Codec ID : mp42
    iffmpeg
    Format : MPEG-4
    Format profile : Base Media
    Codec ID : isom
    the mp42 ID tends to be more compatible with more devices, such as Apple ones


    Did you try them on a good player? Did you see differences in terms of "jitteryness"?

    Do some tests on a known player that works, e.g. MPCHC or SMPlayer on PC, MPlayerOSX on Mac. VLC is garbage on a mac, and Quicktime is garbage on both platforms . Do it systematically, if you have a known good video, then rule out things step by step. If you don't do it systematically you have no idea what's the problem. It might be device compatibilty, might be encoding settings, might be muxer, might be green kryptonite etc...

    But besides the point, they are both as jittery, because they are both encoded at 29.97 . But I think we are calling different things. Encode one at 59.94 and use a good player and you will notice the difference. Or I can upload an example in a bit
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 24th May 2012 at 21:58.
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  20. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Originally Posted by kamil View Post
    Almost forgot to point out something;


    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Yes the 2 encoded files are 29.97p (single rate deinterlaced), that explains the motion issue. Original video is 59.94 fields per second. when watching that on a TV , it gets bob deinterlaced to 59.94 frames per second - essentially each field (which is like a half frame) represents a unique moment in time and becomes a frame . By single rate deinterlacing, you throw away 1/2 that information
    But if both videos are encoded at 29.97p, howcome my Handbrake encodes play perfectly fine on my WDTV (sans audio) while the iFFmpeg encodes have the jitter?

    Apparently the audio sync is a bug in Handbrake, I got an answer from a member on the HB forum. Using the nightly build fixes it.

    It seems you have a playback issue with the WDTV, or some compatibility issues . There are different kinds of "MP4" and the muxer can make a difference with some finicky hardware

    handbrake
    Format : MPEG-4
    Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
    Codec ID : mp42
    iffmpeg
    Format : MPEG-4
    Format profile : Base Media
    Codec ID : isom
    the mp42 ID tends to be more compatible with more devices, such as Apple ones


    Did you try them on a good player? Did you see differences in terms of "jitteryness"?

    Do some tests on a known player that works, e.g. MPCHC or SMPlayer on PC, MPlayerOSX on Mac. VLC is garbage on a mac, and Quicktime is garbage on both platforms . Do it systematically, if you have a known good video, then rule out things step by step. If you don't do it systematically you have no idea what's the problem. It might be device compatibilty, might be encoding settings, might be muxer, might be green kryptonite etc...

    But besides the point, they are both as jittery, because they are both encoded at 29.97 . But I think we are calling different things. Encode one at 59.94 and use a good player and you will notice the difference. Or I can upload an example in a bit
    I think its best to use the worst player out there for maximum compatibility for 'testing'. My rational is that if the bad ones can playback the mp4s, then the rest should have no problem. As is the case actually with the WDTV, its the only thing holding me back.

    I just did a test run using iFFmpeg with a 5 minute video clip I had recorded from a point and shoot digital camera. I used the same encoding settings except I turned off interlacing (as there is none) and set the framerate to 'same as source' (theres no predefined choice for 30fps). And wouldnt you know it, I got the exact same problems on the WDTV with a completely different source file.

    Now here's where it gets interesting....

    Because the current version of Handbrake has bugs, I've downloaded a Nightly Build (unofficial release) and tried encoding some videos from my DV sources to MP4 using the standard settings. Not only were my audio sync problems fixed via VLC and Quicktime, it also worked on the WDTV. To my surprise, audio was STILL in sync even after fast forwarding/rewinding on the WDTV (which always failed with my own mp4/m4v encodes and other mp4 files).

    Heres the info on the file from MediaInfo:

    http://www.ungraphic.com/video/Handbrake-Nightlybuild.txt

    Unfortunately, I don't know if the Nightly Build is safe to use, as its not a stable/official release. But its proven so far to be a complete and working solution.

    I'll try doing more work on the files and testing as you mentioned, but so far this is showing some promise. Thanks!
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  21. Member
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    Great, as long as your major issues are solved

    Nightly is safe to use, but it (still) doesn't have bob deinterlacing (it's been on the "to do" list for about 4 years...I guess it's a long night ) . But they are issued frequently, so sometimes they break things to be fixed in the next release. Such is the same with other quickly developed and released software like x264, ffmpeg where there might be daily or weekly releases

    But you seem to be happy with 1/2 the motion samples... ? If you watch the original footage on a TV setup, it looks like a "soap opera" very smooth and similar to when you watch live sports broadcasts (either 720p or 1080i) . Your encoded videos are choppy by comparison
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  22. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Great, as long as your major issues are solved

    Nightly is safe to use, but it (still) doesn't have bob deinterlacing (it's been on the "to do" list for about 4 years...I guess it's a long night ) . But they are issued frequently, so sometimes they break things to be fixed in the next release. Such is the same with other quickly developed and released software like x264, ffmpeg where there might be daily or weekly releases

    But you seem to be happy with 1/2 the motion samples... ? If you watch the original footage on a TV setup, it looks like a "soap opera" very smooth and similar to when you watch live sports broadcasts (either 720p or 1080i) . Your encoded videos are choppy by comparison
    To be honest, I cant tell if there is any odd frame rate or jittery motion on the WDTV from the nightly build of Handbrake, as was the case with the latest stable release (sans audio sync problems, though thats fixed now). It seems like the videos play back the same way they do as on my computer.

    I've uploaded a converted video using the same settings as before except this time done with the nightly build, theres the mediainfo txt file up as well; www.ungraphic.com/video

    The video seems to be fine with all the devices I've used it on thus far. I've tried playing the videos on my Android phone as well, the video plays back with the stock player as well as MX Player and Moboplayer however the video plays back a little jittery. Its definitely because of a slow processor as the lag isnt consistent as it was with the WDTV. Lower bitrate and poorer encoded h264 files playback just fine. I don't plan on watching any home videos via phone or tablet any time soon. I'm sure that if that time were to come, the software and hardware would support those files anyway, where as im sure all new arm processors (android phones) would do a fine job on the video (my phone is about 2 years old, a single core 1ghz processor).

    Is the bob deinterlacing something I should worry about? I don't seem to be having any issues with it with any software or hardware.

    Thanks for all your help!!!
    Last edited by kamil; 25th May 2012 at 01:19.
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  23. Member
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    Originally Posted by kamil View Post
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Great, as long as your major issues are solved

    Nightly is safe to use, but it (still) doesn't have bob deinterlacing (it's been on the "to do" list for about 4 years...I guess it's a long night ) . But they are issued frequently, so sometimes they break things to be fixed in the next release. Such is the same with other quickly developed and released software like x264, ffmpeg where there might be daily or weekly releases

    But you seem to be happy with 1/2 the motion samples... ? If you watch the original footage on a TV setup, it looks like a "soap opera" very smooth and similar to when you watch live sports broadcasts (either 720p or 1080i) . Your encoded videos are choppy by comparison
    To be honest, I cant tell if there is any odd frame rate or jittery motion on the WDTV from the nightly build of Handbrake, as was the case with the latest stable release (sans audio sync problems, though thats fixed now). It seems like the videos play back the same way they do as on my computer.

    I've uploaded a converted video using the same settings as before except this time done with the nightly build, theres the mediainfo txt file up as well; www.ungraphic.com/video

    The video seems to be fine with all the devices I've used it on thus far. I've tried playing the videos on my Android phone as well, the video plays back with the stock player as well as MX Player and Moboplayer however the video plays back a little jittery. Its definitely because of a slow processor as the lag isnt consistent as it was with the WDTV. Lower bitrate and poorer encoded h264 files playback just fine. I don't plan on watching any home videos via phone or tablet any time soon. I'm sure that if that time were to come, the software and hardware would support those files anyway, where as im sure all new arm processors (android phones) would do a fine job on the video (my phone is about 2 years old, a single core 1ghz processor).


    Is the bob deinterlacing something I should worry about? I don't seem to be having any issues with it with any software or hardware.
    Not necessarily, just videos will retain their original motion smoothness from the VHS or 8mm source. In some types of content like sports, fast pans, you will definitely notice the difference. Also, some devices won't play 59.94p videos so there might be compatibility concerns. (WDTV should be able to)

    You seem to be happy so I don't want to open Pandora's box. Your major concerns with playback were already addressed... You can spend an inordinant amount of time fixing things but you have to draw the line somewhere



    Here is example of 59.94p video, and a slightly stabilized version, and the original 29.97 handbrake version for comparison. I don't know if your WDTV will have issues playing them so check on the computer with a good player. Notice in terms of motion both are much less "choppy" than the 29.97 version from handbrake.

    It's not a "fair" comparison, because there are a few other things done like some denoising, better deinterlacing. Also there are "side effects" to everything including denoising, stabilization (you have to zoom in or use other border techniques)

    All the little smaller issues mentioned above add up to a more pleasant viewing experience (denoising, stabilization, fixing levels, cleaning up the audio, encoding settings & rate control), but it actually starts from the source with getting a better capture with TBC. Each of these is a big topic in it's own right, way too much to cover in 1 thread, but it's something to think about
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  24. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Originally Posted by kamil View Post
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Great, as long as your major issues are solved

    Nightly is safe to use, but it (still) doesn't have bob deinterlacing (it's been on the "to do" list for about 4 years...I guess it's a long night ) . But they are issued frequently, so sometimes they break things to be fixed in the next release. Such is the same with other quickly developed and released software like x264, ffmpeg where there might be daily or weekly releases

    But you seem to be happy with 1/2 the motion samples... ? If you watch the original footage on a TV setup, it looks like a "soap opera" very smooth and similar to when you watch live sports broadcasts (either 720p or 1080i) . Your encoded videos are choppy by comparison
    To be honest, I cant tell if there is any odd frame rate or jittery motion on the WDTV from the nightly build of Handbrake, as was the case with the latest stable release (sans audio sync problems, though thats fixed now). It seems like the videos play back the same way they do as on my computer.

    I've uploaded a converted video using the same settings as before except this time done with the nightly build, theres the mediainfo txt file up as well; www.ungraphic.com/video

    The video seems to be fine with all the devices I've used it on thus far. I've tried playing the videos on my Android phone as well, the video plays back with the stock player as well as MX Player and Moboplayer however the video plays back a little jittery. Its definitely because of a slow processor as the lag isnt consistent as it was with the WDTV. Lower bitrate and poorer encoded h264 files playback just fine. I don't plan on watching any home videos via phone or tablet any time soon. I'm sure that if that time were to come, the software and hardware would support those files anyway, where as im sure all new arm processors (android phones) would do a fine job on the video (my phone is about 2 years old, a single core 1ghz processor).


    Is the bob deinterlacing something I should worry about? I don't seem to be having any issues with it with any software or hardware.
    Not necessarily, just videos will retain their original motion smoothness from the VHS or 8mm source. In some types of content like sports, fast pans, you will definitely notice the difference. Also, some devices won't play 59.94p videos so there might be compatibility concerns. (WDTV should be able to)

    You seem to be happy so I don't want to open Pandora's box. Your major concerns with playback were already addressed... You can spend an inordinant amount of time fixing things but you have to draw the line somewhere



    Here is example of 59.94p video, and a slightly stabilized version, and the original 29.97 handbrake version for comparison. I don't know if your WDTV will have issues playing them so check on the computer with a good player. Notice in terms of motion both are much less "choppy" than the 29.97 version from handbrake.

    It's not a "fair" comparison, because there are a few other things done like some denoising, better deinterlacing. Also there are "side effects" to everything including denoising, stabilization (you have to zoom in or use other border techniques)

    All the little smaller issues mentioned above add up to a more pleasant viewing experience (denoising, stabilization, fixing levels, cleaning up the audio, encoding settings & rate control), but it actually starts from the source with getting a better capture with TBC. Each of these is a big topic in it's own right, way too much to cover in 1 thread, but it's something to think about
    I should mention, the nightly build of Handbrake I'm using right now DOES have 59.94fps setting with BOB deinterlacing, which gives exactly the same result as the one you uploaded. I didn't notice it until this morning. I was pretty stoked until I tested it with the settings you mentioned I needed to have, and to be honest, I really don't like the smoothness of the video. Yes, its smooth and looks pretty cool, but its not natural and isnt what the original content was filmed like. So, for me, its out of the question.

    I just hope my video capture is up to par. Looking at the results from my VCR to my HDTV, the final handbrake converted files look basically the same as they original VHS tapes.
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  25. Member
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    Originally Posted by kamil View Post
    I should mention, the nightly build of Handbrake I'm using right now DOES have 59.94fps setting with BOB deinterlacing, which gives exactly the same result as the one you uploaded. I didn't notice it until this morning. I was pretty stoked until I tested it with the settings you mentioned I needed to have, and to be honest, I really don't like the smoothness of the video. Yes, its smooth and looks pretty cool, but its not natural and isnt what the original content was filmed like. So, for me, its out of the question.
    That's great, they finally got it implented

    You should be aware that the original VHS tape does have with 59.94 motion samples / second (fields per second). That is the original content on the tape. Plug in the VHS directly to the TV if you don't believe me. If you don't "like" it, that's another matter entirely. Make sure you keep at at least the dv files for digital preservation (even that is lossy)


    I just hope my video capture is up to par. Looking at the results from my VCR to my HDTV, the final handbrake converted files look basically the same as they original VHS tapes.
    There are probably a few things you can do on the capture side as well, again a big topic . That's funny, most people actually don't want it to look the same as the original noisy VHS tape. They usually want a cleaned up edited verion for viewing, and a separate lossless archive. But as long as you're happy that' s all that really matters
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  26. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Originally Posted by kamil View Post
    I should mention, the nightly build of Handbrake I'm using right now DOES have 59.94fps setting with BOB deinterlacing, which gives exactly the same result as the one you uploaded. I didn't notice it until this morning. I was pretty stoked until I tested it with the settings you mentioned I needed to have, and to be honest, I really don't like the smoothness of the video. Yes, its smooth and looks pretty cool, but its not natural and isnt what the original content was filmed like. So, for me, its out of the question.
    That's great, they finally got it implented

    You should be aware that the original VHS tape does have with 59.94 motion samples / second (fields per second). That is the original content on the tape. Plug in the VHS directly to the TV if you don't believe me. If you don't "like" it, that's another matter entirely. Make sure you keep at at least the dv files for digital preservation (even that is lossy)


    I just hope my video capture is up to par. Looking at the results from my VCR to my HDTV, the final handbrake converted files look basically the same as they original VHS tapes.
    There are probably a few things you can do on the capture side as well, again a big topic . That's funny, most people actually don't want it to look the same as the original noisy VHS tape. They usually want a cleaned up edited verion for viewing, and a separate lossless archive. But as long as you're happy that' s all that really matters
    Well a cleaned up version along with the original DV files would be nice, but the amount of hard drive space that would take up would require forking out another $50-80 for a 500gb drive, which is probably how much space the 20-40 videos I've got will take up. I don't think I'd want to have *two* version when one is more than adequate.

    For instance, one of my captures is 2 hours long. The DV file for that is 27gb. I still have many more videos to capture, and my second internal hard drive in my laptop only has 300gb left (while its also a 1tb drive!).

    Basically, if each VHS and 8mm tape I'm going to capture is 1hr long (some are much longer than that), these should be around 13gb large. 30 tapes X 13gb = 390gb.

    Upon reflection, many of my VHS tapes are actually recordings from the 8mm Video8 tapes, so those will probably be much better quality as well as as the fact that the VHS captures simply won't be needed. I suppose I could leave everything on a hard drive somewhere. Is there a 'FLAC' type compression for video which preserves nearly all the detail while having a significantly smaller file size?
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  27. Member
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    Originally Posted by kamil View Post

    Well a cleaned up version along with the original DV files would be nice, but the amount of hard drive space that would take up would require forking out another $50-80 for a 500gb drive, which is probably how much space the 20-40 videos I've got will take up. I don't think I'd want to have *two* version when one is more than adequate.

    For instance, one of my captures is 2 hours long. The DV file for that is 27gb. I still have many more videos to capture, and my second internal hard drive in my laptop only has 300gb left (while its also a 1tb drive!).

    Basically, if each VHS and 8mm tape I'm going to capture is 1hr long (some are much longer than that), these should be around 13gb large. 30 tapes X 13gb = 390gb.

    Upon reflection, many of my VHS tapes are actually recordings from the 8mm Video8 tapes, so those will probably be much better quality as well as as the fact that the VHS captures simply won't be needed. I suppose I could leave everything on a hard drive somewhere. Is there a 'FLAC' type compression for video which preserves nearly all the detail while having a significantly smaller file size?


    Honestly , that is nothing for people that do video work. Even with today's elevated HDD prices.

    DV is lossy, people that are serious about a lossless archive use something like huffyuv, lagarith (this answers your "flac" question) . Filesize will be several times larger than DV, so quit complaining about HDD space And uncompressed would be about 2x more than lagarith .
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  28. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Originally Posted by kamil View Post

    Well a cleaned up version along with the original DV files would be nice, but the amount of hard drive space that would take up would require forking out another $50-80 for a 500gb drive, which is probably how much space the 20-40 videos I've got will take up. I don't think I'd want to have *two* version when one is more than adequate.

    For instance, one of my captures is 2 hours long. The DV file for that is 27gb. I still have many more videos to capture, and my second internal hard drive in my laptop only has 300gb left (while its also a 1tb drive!).

    Basically, if each VHS and 8mm tape I'm going to capture is 1hr long (some are much longer than that), these should be around 13gb large. 30 tapes X 13gb = 390gb.

    Upon reflection, many of my VHS tapes are actually recordings from the 8mm Video8 tapes, so those will probably be much better quality as well as as the fact that the VHS captures simply won't be needed. I suppose I could leave everything on a hard drive somewhere. Is there a 'FLAC' type compression for video which preserves nearly all the detail while having a significantly smaller file size?


    Honestly , that is nothing for people that do video work. Even with today's elevated HDD prices.

    DV is lossy, people that are serious about a lossless archive use something like huffyuv, lagarith (this answers your "flac" question) . Filesize will be several times larger than DV, so quit complaining about HDD space And uncompressed would be about 2x more than lagarith .
    Jesus... I didn't think there were more 'uncompressed lossless' formats, I thought DV was as good as it gets.

    Oh well. But again, thanks for all the great help!
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