Building a custom HDMI-PVR for recording games (PC, consoles etc)

[Virnec]

I've been trying to do some research, but I can't really seem to get anywhere.
Basically, I'm looking to build a PVR-system. The ideal spec would handle any HDMI source @ 1080p60, with an one-button solution for starting and stopping recording (think fraps), recorded into a neat low-compressed/raw AVI-format.


Mainly building for recording PC-output, but I have several other scenarios in mind, like old and new gaming consoles, VCR, camera etc.


Of all the available cards – AverMedia, BlackMagic, Hauppage etc. -- the Blackmagic Intensity Pro seems like the best bet. It can record a high-quality AVI, plus has Linux support – which is very nice indeed.
One problem with this card though, is that it won't convert the frame rate – so you're basically stuck at 30fps. This is not acceptable, and is one of the reasons I seek to make a dedicated machine; to get a better playing experience while recording.


Dear forum, what experiences can be shared on this topic?

[jagabo]

I don't think you'll find any consumer or prosumer device that can capture 1080p60.

[Virnec]

I agree.
I've stumbled upon a japanese card, MonsterXX, but there's not a lot of info to get around, without translating. Not sure if anyone are importing it.

Here's a japanese guy who is supposedly using the card.
Difficult to comment on the quality, since it's highly compressed. Heavy tearing is evident, though.

[usually_quiet]

I've been trying to do some research, but I can't really seem to get anywhere.
Basically, I'm looking to build a PVR-system. The ideal spec would handle any HDMI source @ 1080p60, with an one-button solution for starting and stopping recording (think fraps), recorded into a neat low-compressed/raw AVI-format.


Mainly building for recording PC-output, but I have several other scenarios in mind, like old and new gaming consoles, VCR, camera etc.


Of all the available cards – AverMedia, BlackMagic, Hauppage etc. -- the Blackmagic Intensity Pro seems like the best bet. It can record a high-quality AVI, plus has Linux support – which is very nice indeed.
One problem with this card though, is that it won't convert the frame rate – so you're basically stuck at 30fps. This is not acceptable, and is one of the reasons I seek to make a dedicated machine; to get a better playing experience while recording.


Dear forum, what experiences can be shared on this topic?

If you want to capture 1080p60, I have seen no consumer capture devices that have specs indicating they are capable of 1080p60 capture.

The current BlackMagic Intensity line only supports up to 1080p30. (Supported resolutions and framerates are: 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60, 1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60, 625i/50 PAL and 525i/59.94 NTSC.)

The AVerMedia Game Broadcaster HD gets good reviews but records 1080p60 as 1080p30. See http://www.avermedia-usa.com/AVertv/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=503

What do you mean by "old gaming console"? Some posts at VideoHelp indicate that some (if not all) very early SD gaming consoles produce an off-spec signal that an analog CRT TV could display correctly, but almost nothing can capture.

You would also likely need more hardware than a typical VHS deck and a PC equipped with one of the newer HD capture devices to successfully capture VHS. Newer HD-capable capture devices are very intolerant of drop-outs and other irregularities common in VHS signals, and require a premuium SVHS deck with a line TBC and possibly a separate full-frame TBC to provide a signal that is good enough for capture.

[Virnec]

If you want to capture 1080p60, I have seen no consumer capture devices that have specs indicating they are capable of 1080p60 capture.

I was hoping someone would jump in and go like "hey, haven't you seen this and this card?", but alas. I will probably have to settle with 30fps, however unpleasant it is to watch. Maybe go for a lobotomy instead.

The current BlackMagic Intensity line only supports up to 1080p30. (Supported resolutions and framerates are: 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60, 1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60, 625i/50 PAL and 525i/59.94 NTSC.)

Yes. I read on some thread or review that you're stuck playing at whatever frequency you are recording at. Sucks.
While I'm not a highly learned in audio/video, I can't quite see how supporting higher frequencies would blow up the price . I suppose they're all competing in the same market though, and thus have to keep the cost to a minimum.

The AVerMedia Game Broadcaster HD gets good reviews but records 1080p60 as 1080p30. See http://www.avermedia-usa.com/AVertv/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=503

That one is a good contestant for my build. Do you have any idea if it supports any raw-ish formats, or if the quality-level is close to par with the Blackmagic?

What do you mean by "old gaming console"? Some posts at VideoHelp indicate that some (if not all) very early SD gaming consoles produce an off-spec signal that an analog CRT TV could display correctly, but almost nothing can capture.

You would also likely need more hardware than a typical VHS deck and a PC equipped with one of the newer HD capture devices to successfully capture VHS. Newer HD-capable capture devices are very intolerant of drop-outs and other irregularities common in VHS signals, and require a premuium SVHS deck with a line TBC and possibly a separate full-frame TBC to provide a signal that is good enough for capture.

In the ideal world, you would buy one card and it would do ANYTHING you needed it to do. Maybe put in a signal converter or something in-between in some scenarios. I guess we're not in an ideal world
Either I'd get some sort of a scan-converter, or probably just go for a dedicated card for that particular purpose.

[usually_quiet]

The current BlackMagic Intensity line only supports up to 1080p30. (Supported resolutions and framerates are: 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60, 1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60, 625i/50 PAL and 525i/59.94 NTSC.)

Yes. I read on some thread or review that you're stuck playing at whatever frequency you are recording at. Sucks.
While I'm not a highly learned in audio/video, I can't quite see how supporting higher frequencies would blow up the price . I suppose they're all competing in the same market though, and thus have to keep the cost to a minimum.

All capture devices can only record at the resolution they receive, and are limited in the resolutions and frame rates that they support. Most can only record at the frame rate they receive as well. The AVerMedia Game Broadcaster HD is unusual in that it records 1080p60 as 1080p30. I'm guessing it throws away every other frame, and I'm not sure what it would do when using third-party software.

The AVerMedia Game Broadcaster HD gets good reviews but records 1080p60 as 1080p30. See http://www.avermedia-usa.com/AVertv/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=503

That one is a good contestant for my build. Do you have any idea if it supports any raw-ish formats, or if the quality-level is close to par with the Blackmagic?

I don't know how quality for the AVerMedia Game Broadcaster HD compares to the Blackmagic Intensity Pro. I have no personal experience with either. Plus, the AVerMedia Game Broadcaster HD is a relatively new product, so there are not many user reviews available yet, and only a few reviews at websites devoted to gaming.

You will need to use third-party software for uncompressed or losslessly compressed video and audio. The AVerMedia Game Broadcaster HD uses software for encoding, which is good for your purposes, because capture devices that use software for encoding supply uncompresssed video and audio as output, and usually also work with third-party software that supports lossless codecs for compression.

The AVerMedia Game Broadcaster HD only records from VGA, RCA component video, RCA analog stereo audio, and HDMI, so you will need a different device for RCA composite video or S-video capture.

[Cauptain]

AverTV HD >>>>>> BMI in Quality Image. Fact.

AverTV HD is only card avaliable to record any HDCP protect device like PS3.

Consoles HD games are, in majority, 720p games. any card will work to this (Aver, BMI, Colossus)

AverTV HD has Low Profile to HTPC.

For PC games, DXTORY is PERFECt to record at 1080p@60.

AverTV HD has USB Remote Controller to make 1-click record.

AverTV has awesome support with 3rd softwares (Virtualdub, AmarecTV, Power Director, VH Capture, corel Videostudio...etc).

I will never buy BMI, low product comparable to AverTV HD.



Claudio

[usually_quiet]

AverTV HD >>>>>> BMI in Quality Image. Fact.

AverTV HD is only card avaliable to record any HDCP protect device like PS3.

Consoles HD games are, in majority, 720p games. any card will work to this (Aver, BMI, Colossus)

AverTV HD has Low Profile to HTPC.

For PC games, DXTORY is PERFECt to record at 1080p@60.

AverTV HD has USB Remote Controller to make 1-click record.

AverTV has awesome support with 3rd softwares (Virtualdub, AmarecTV, Power Director, VH Capture, corel Videostudio...etc).

I will never buy BMI, low product comparable to AverTV HD.



Claudio

Just for the sake of clarity, since the device names are similar, Cauptian is discussing the AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e (C027). The Game Broadcaster HD (C127) is a different PCI-e capture device.

The AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e (C027) will record from HDMI, component video, S-Video and composite video, but it does not record from VGA like the Game Broadcaster HD (C127), nor will the AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e (C027) record 1080p30 or 1080p60 (as 1080p30). It only records up to and including 1080i. Ordinarily, the AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e (C027) does not allow recording HDCP protected sources. Bypassing HDCP requires some extra effort in the form of a driver exploit or installing additional software. The AVerTV HD DVR has an established track record and may be worth considering on account of its lower price as well as the features it offers that are not available using the Game Broadcaster HD.

[Cauptain]

Just for the sake of clarity, since the device names are similar, Cauptain is discussing the AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e (C027). The Game Broadcaster HD (C127) is a different PCI-e capture device.

The AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e (C027) will record from HDMI, component video, S-Video and composite video, but it does not record from VGA like the Game Broadcaster HD (C127), nor will the AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e (C027) record 1080p30 or 1080p60 (as 1080p30). It only records up to and including 1080i. Ordinarily, the AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e (C027) does not allow recording HDCP protected sources. Bypassing HDCP requires some extra effort in the form of a driver exploit or installing additional software. The AVerTV HD DVR has an established track record and may be worth considering on account of its lower price as well as the features it offers that are not available using the Game Broadcaster HD.

Thank you usually_quiet for all additional infos.


Claudio

[yoda313]

Wouldn't the best alternative be 1080i at 60? (which it seems the blackmagic can do?) Yes its not full progressive but would the 60 frame rate be better than the lack of progressive? Wouldn't the tv do the conversion to 1080p? Or is that oversimplifying what the tv can and can't do?

[jagabo]

Since 1080i is a broadcast standard every progressive TV can convert 1080i to progressive frames for display.

[yoda313]

Since 1080i is a broadcast standard every progressive TV can convert 1080i to progressive frames for display.

Sounds good.

Would that be better to do 1080i at 60 then 1080p at 30? Then let the tv do the i to p conversion?

[jagabo]

Would that be better to do 1080i at 60 then 1080p at 30? Then let the tv do the i to p conversion?

If you're looking for fluid motion 1080i30 will be better. 1080p30 will be superior in terms of image quality but will be slightly jerky or flickery. The quality of deinterlacing varies from TV to TV but most modern sets do a good job.

[yoda313]

1080p30 will be superior in terms of image quality but will be slightly jerky or flickery.

That seems counterintuitive to me. Shouldn't progressive be better than interlace in all respects?

I was just thinking that if you were desperate to hit 60 fps as the poster wants it would be better to settle for 1080i 60 if you MUST have 60.

Why would progressive be jerky at all?

I freely admit to not being fully versed in all areas of video - obviously not many can be - other than our most senior members here on videohelp - you included jagabo - yes sucking up here but what the hell I admit my lack of knowledge in some areas )

[usually_quiet]

Wouldn't the best alternative be 1080i at 60? (which it seems the blackmagic can do?) Yes its not full progressive but would the 60 frame rate be better than the lack of progressive? Wouldn't the tv do the conversion to 1080p? Or is that oversimplifying what the tv can and can't do?

1080i60 means 60 fields per second, not 60 frames per second. 1080i/30 or 1080i30 means 30 frames per second. Since there are two fields per frame, 1080i60 displays as 30 progressive frames per second on an LCD TV.

[yoda313]

Thanks usually_quiet. Always good to learn new stuff. Or be retaught stuff you new at one point.

[jagabo]

1080i30 and 1080i60 are exactly the same thing, 30 interlaced frames per second, intended to be viewed as 60 fields per second. Marketing just decided that bigger numbers sound better so they invented the term 1080i60.

[Virnec]

The current BlackMagic Intensity line only supports up to 1080p30. (Supported resolutions and framerates are: 1080i50, 1080i59.94, 1080i60, 1080p23.98, 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p29.97, 1080p30, 720p50, 720p59.94, 720p60, 625i/50 PAL and 525i/59.94 NTSC.)

Yes. I read on some thread or review that you're stuck playing at whatever frequency you are recording at. Sucks.
While I'm not a highly learned in audio/video, I can't quite see how supporting higher frequencies would blow up the price . I suppose they're all competing in the same market though, and thus have to keep the cost to a minimum.

All capture devices can only record at the resolution they receive, and are limited in the resolutions and frame rates that they support. Most can only record at the frame rate they receive as well. The AVerMedia Game Broadcaster HD is unusual in that it records 1080p60 as 1080p30. I'm guessing it throws away every other frame, and I'm not sure what it would do when using third-party software.

Yes, but 60p-cards are at $1000+ and in the 'professional' range of products. What else differs - component wise - between 30/60fps other than clockspeed and the need for higher disk bandwidth?

You will need to use third-party software for uncompressed or losslessly compressed video and audio. The AVerMedia Game Broadcaster HD uses software for encoding, which is good for your purposes, because capture devices that use software for encoding supply uncompresssed video and audio as output, and usually also work with third-party software that supports lossless codecs for compression.

Good. Really sucks, tough, that AverMedia don't make drivers for Linux. Would've made things much smoother to work with, in terms of setting up the system, scripting etc.
I'll be using x264, so as long as the decoder is available with mencoder - which most are - it'll be smooth.

@Caputain
Not quite sure of the card you speak so fondly of, but interlaced is really a huge step back. It's probably well suited for broadcast-grade material, but progressive is really the only way forward.
Also, HDCP I will not take into consideration by any means.

It seem that AverMedia and Blackmagic are my only choices...
The Avermedia can record from a 60hz source, which is great.


Overall though, I must say I'm really disappointed with the selection of cards available.
One card supports 60hz input, but has hardware encoding and poor selection of codecs (avermedia c127).
The other seems superior in many aspects (blackmagic), but only supports 30hz signal.

To me, it seems very strange to sell a capture card, and not have an option for raw footage. All that marketing hype regarding hardware encoding is nice for streaming and all -- but it surely didn't have to sacrifice quality, did it?
Also, the lack of Linux drivers on some brands means no gstreamer etc. I'll have to use AutoIt or some hacky solution to get some form of automation.

What too doo guyze, wut ta doo?

[edDV]

Overall though, I must say I'm really disappointed with the selection of cards available.
One card supports 60hz input, but has hardware encoding and poor selection of codecs (avermedia c127).
The other seems superior in many aspects (blackmagic), but only supports 30hz signal.

Settle for 1280x720p60 and all is well. Uncompressed 1920x1080p60 is too much of a stretch with today's computers (~3 Gbps at 10 bits).

AVC compressed 1920x1080p60 cameras exist and the format will soon be ATSC and Blu-ray compatible. Bit rates range from 28 Mbps to 50 Mbps.

[usually_quiet]

Yes, but 60p-cards are at $1000+ and in the 'professional' range of products. What else differs - component wise - between 30/60fps other than clockspeed and the need for higher disk bandwidth?

VGA and component video are analog formats, which means there is still analog to digital conversion going on with current HD capture devices. Digitizing 1920x1080 analog video at 60 frames per second is twice as demanding as digitizing 1920x1080 at 30 frames per second. So yes, devices that can do that kind of analog to digital conversion are cutting edge at this point and are going cost some real money.

Good. Really sucks, tough, that AverMedia don't make drivers for Linux. Would've made things much smoother to work with, in terms of setting up the system, scripting etc.
I'll be using x264, so as long as the decoder is available with mencoder - which most are - it'll be smooth.

AVerMedia isn't unusual in that respect. Few consumer capture devices offer Linux support.

Overall though, I must say I'm really disappointed with the selection of cards available.
One card supports 60hz input, but has hardware encoding and poor selection of codecs (avermedia c127).
The other seems superior in many aspects (blackmagic), but only supports 30hz signal.

To me, it seems very strange to sell a capture card, and not have an option for raw footage. All that marketing hype regarding hardware encoding is nice for streaming and all -- but it surely didn't have to sacrifice quality, did it?
Also, the lack of Linux drivers on some brands means no gstreamer etc. I'll have to use AutoIt or some hacky solution to get some form of automation.

What too doo guyze, wut ta doo?

Why do you think the AVerMedia's Game Broadcaster HD (C127) uses hardware encoding? I never said that. If you want proof, this page at AVerMedia's website says it uses software encoding http://www.avermedia.com/Upload/1080p_game_capture/techSpecs.html

[Virnec]

Hey guys -- thanks for the response so far!

I've decided to go with the Game Broadcaster from Aver. There's basically no other option!

I'd go with the BMI though, if I could find a device that would convert the frame rate. Unfortunately, it seems that a 60hz/30hz conversion is a niche which no solution is likely to spawn from. Also, the difference in 10/8bit is nothing I'll ever have worry about.. Would be nice with some extra colors to work with, but It'll be years until 10bit monitors will be mainstream anyway -- if ever! Plus the extra bandwidth required etc.. Too much of a hassle.

I'll post my findings - quality and otherwise - when I get the card!