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  1. Member windyweather's Avatar
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    I have just upgraded my DishNetwork subscription to the Hopper. Very nice.

    The previous DVR was the 722, and I was capturing and making SD DVDs with Svideo into a Pinnacle Moviebox USB, into WinXP, and then using Nero Vision on Win7. This has been working quite well.

    Now with such a nice DVR, I'd like to upgrade my tool chain to HDMI capture and blu-ray media to play on my PS3.

    The Blackmagic Shuttle looks nice and is affordable, but all reviews talk about difficulty in setting it up and at least one mentions that it will not record PS3 game play from HDMI.
    http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

    Hauppauge HD PVR does not have HDMI input, so it is off my list. Component video is just too many wires.
    http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html

    • Does anyone have experience with Blackmagic?
    • Does it work with HDMI?
    • Is there a better HDMI 1080i/p capture device to USB, USB3 or Firewire?
    • Can Dishnetwork HDMI output be recorded? From Hopper?
    • "Premium" movie channels, like SHO, TMC, etc are not on the menu.
    • "Timeshifting" EPIX, Syfy, Research channel, UCTV, PBSHD, etc. for personal use only is the goal.
    • My Win7 production system has USB3, or can easily have using an expansion card.
    Also I see this StarTech card:
    http://www.startech.com/AV/Converters/Video/PCI-Express-HD-Video-Capture-Card-1080p%E2...onent~PEXHDCAP
    Anybody have experience with this?


    Looks like BD has finally come down enough in price so that a burner for ~$100 and media at $1-$2 each are available.

    Thanks,
    ww
    Last edited by windyweather; 4th May 2012 at 16:28. Reason: Add StarTech card
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    Hauppauge's Colossus card does have HDMI input. However, they are very explicit in pointing out that most cable and satellite boxes encrypt HDMI output and they do NOT record encrypted HDMI. I'm not aware of any device that can record encrypted HDMI. I have no idea whether PS3 video output from games is encrypted or not, but given that the PS3 is made by consumer unfriendly Sony, my guess is that it is encrypted.

    Component video is really excellent quality. If it's "too many wires" for you then you are SOL my friend.
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  3. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:08.
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  5. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    There you go again, sanlyn, spouting stuff that is patently false.

    Just as "the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line", it is a cardinal axiom that the straightest, least-changing path between devices retains the highest quality.

    So, with most signals now originating digitally, the least-changing path is a single conversion to analog AT THE DESTINATION (the "sink"), or ON THE TV SCREEN and AT THE AUDIO AMP/SPEAKERS.

    Using component analog clearly detours that path. And with devices with HDCP, it is mandated that an analog output be of lower resolution!

    Plus, component video's days of benefitting displays are numbered when more and more visual devices use mapped/digital pixels (LCD/LED) as opposed to scanned/swept pixels (CRT/Plasma).

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:08.
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  7. Member windyweather's Avatar
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    Ok. so I get it. There's a war out there on the subject of YPbPr vs HDMI.
    So the remaining question is has anybody used the BlackMagic Intensity Shuttle?

    Since this has both component and HDMI inputs, we can turn the flame off on the YPbPr vs HDMI wars.
    The reviews I've seen on this device talk about it being very hard to set up.
    Any experience out there? Does it work?
    Can you take the recorded video and make a BD disk?
    What tool chain did you use? I'd prefer an affordable Video editor and not a $700 or more Adobe Premier solution. I'm currently using Nero Vision for SD DVD, and it works very well for my needs.

    Thanks,
    ww
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:08.
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  9. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Ahem, most PROs use: HDSDI, SDI, HDMI/DVI/DP, Firewire, RGBA, Component,VGA, S-Video & Composite. In that order, wherever available.

    HDMI outputs YCbCr or RGB depending upon the device(s) connected. YCbCr is digital, YPbPr is analog. And the whole point mentioned above, and again, is to NOT make those detours into analog land unless necessary. Defeating encryption might be one of those excuses, but it can and does often come with a resolution/quality penalty.

    *****

    Never had any trouble here with Intensity Pro. But I don't give it encrypted streams, either. I'm 90% sure it wouldn't accept them. Setup is not that hard as long as you follow their "acceptable configurations" as regards the hardware & OS. Shuttle shouldn't be very different.

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  10. Member
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    Originally Posted by windyweather View Post
    Ok. so I get it. There's a war out there on the subject of YPbPr vs HDMI.
    So the remaining question is has anybody used the BlackMagic Intensity Shuttle?

    Since this has both component and HDMI inputs, we can turn the flame off on the YPbPr vs HDMI wars.
    The reviews I've seen on this device talk about it being very hard to set up.
    Any experience out there? Does it work?
    Can you take the recorded video and make a BD disk?
    What tool chain did you use? I'd prefer an affordable Video editor and not a $700 or more Adobe Premier solution. I'm currently using Nero Vision for SD DVD, and it works very well for my needs.

    Thanks,
    ww
    According to Blackmagic, their Intensity product line won't record HDCP protected video. Since newer satellite boxes/DVRs apply HDCP protection to HDMI output, the Intensity shuttle is unlikely to record the output from your DVR via HDMI. This means that you will have to use component video to capture HD video from the the Hopper, and you will be limited to recording stereo audio too.

    I recall from other threads that the Intensity Shuttle doesn't perform well with some USB 3.0 controllers. That tends to be where people encounter the most problems with the device, but there could be others too. I can't tell you which USB 3.0 controllers are good or bad. You can use Google to find out as readily as I can.

    Blackmagic's Intensity product line supplies video in uncompressed form, and software is used to compress it. For optimum quality, many users choose codecs that apply light compression, resulting in enormous files that are compressed to an end format later. Blackmagic's products are geared towards professional and prosumer use. Cornucopia may know if there is less expensive software that might work well with it, instead of the programs that Blackmagic mentions at the website.

    If you must use HDMI, then there is a work-around for HDCP available for the AVerMedia HD DVR PCI-e device, but it only allows capturing stereo audio. The AVerMedia HD DVR also supplies video in uncompressed form, and software is used to compress it too. Here again, most people using the card choose codecs that apply light compression, resulting in enormous files that have to be compressed to an end format later. Applying heavy compression during capture creates a less satisfactory result.

    Capturing HD video using light compression and re-encoding later, seems like a lot of trouble to go to just for the purpose of time shifting. If you want something convenient for time shifting that can record 5.1 audio, the Hauppage HD-PVR, or Hauppage Colossus, which use hardware compression, can do a good job.
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:09.
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  12. For convenience, I would recommend an HDCP stripper paired with the Hauppauge Colossus. Advantages: hardware compression, 5.1 audio, you can choose whether to use HDMI or component+optical. Never used this card myself however.

    The AVerTV HD DVR card that I do own would be cheaper, and no need for the stripper, but you'd have to rely on your CPU to do the compression.

    I don't think any of the options will present a huge gulf in quality, given how much detail is already removed by Dish's overcompression.
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  13. Member
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    I use a 4x2 Matrix splitter, an HDFury2, an Hauppauge HD PVR, and my (puny i3) laptop.
    1. Inputs (STB, Blu Ray) into the matrix splitter
    2. First matrix splitter output to TV
    3. Second matrix splitter to HDFury
    4. HDFury to HD PVR
    5. HD PVR to laptop

    You lose a bit quality-wise with the analog conversion, and the HD PVR is only capable of 720p or 1080i, but the PQ is still pretty darn good. I *think* the colossus can record 1080p over component, so might yield a slight improvement if you were so inclined.
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:09. Reason: correct sata specs
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  15. Lone soldier Cauptain's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    If you must use HDMI, then there is a work-around for HDCP available for the AVerMedia HD DVR PCI-e device, but it only allows capturing stereo audio. The AVerMedia HD DVR also supplies video in uncompressed form, and software is used to compress it too. Here again, most people using the card choose codecs that apply light compression, resulting in enormous files that have to be compressed to an end format later. Applying heavy compression during capture creates a less satisfactory result.

    Capturing HD video using light compression and re-encoding later, seems like a lot of trouble to go to just for the purpose of time shifting. If you want something convenient for time shifting that can record 5.1 audio, the Hauppage HD-PVR, or Hauppage Colossus, which use hardware compression, can do a good job.
    Yes, it is a lot of extra trouble. Interesting you should mention this workaround. I'm still augmenting the PC I built for the Hauppauge HD PVR. I don't record many shows with this thing, and almost all of them need some rework and edits of some kind. Yeah, cleaning up the low-bitrate damage on some telecasts is dreary and somewhat destructive business, but if the source isn't in retail print and never will be, there's not much choice.

    If the AverMedia HD unit can allow me to capture to lossless compression of some kind, that would be an improvement. The PC can physically accommodate 3 hard drives (the motherboard will take six drives, 3 USB-3 and 3 USB-2 sata drives, but no room in the case for all six. And I can't see myself trying to maintain 6 big HDD's!). For now, the originals get transferred to external drives and then reworked from the Hauppauge's compressed product; that's a big headache, and some obvious quality loss that requires really careful treatment. Thanks for mentioning. I wasn't aware of the AverMedia unit. . . .
    Hi Sanlyn,

    I have 2 cards AVER HD (C027).

    Yes, its record full uncompressed video from HDMI inputs. Down? Yes, sound is mencioned above, Stereo only. But you can setup PS3 to Output Optical and record using your sound card.

    For my captures its very nice. Virtualdub or AmarecTV, uncompressed or UT video ULY2 mode, 1080i max.

    Ah very cheaper (~90.00$).


    One tip: the HDCP pack works with ANY Aver devices HDMI input (All Dark Cristal series and newlys).


    Claudio
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    Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:09.
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    Originally Posted by Chopmeister View Post
    You lose a bit quality-wise with the analog conversion, and the HD PVR is only capable of 720p or 1080i, but the PQ is still pretty darn good. I *think* the colossus can record 1080p over component, so might yield a slight improvement if you were so inclined.
    The Hauppauge Colossus can record 1080i, but not 1080p. The Startech PCI Express HD Video Capture Card PEXHDCAP is the only device mentioned in this thread that can capture 1080p video, although it only captures stereo audio. HD capture devices record the resolution they receive, and as far as I know, Dish's normal programming is still 720p or 1080i. Their On-Demand and PPV can be 1080p, but the OP doesn't want to record that.

    Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
    If the AverMedia HD unit can allow me to capture to lossless compression of some kind, that would be an improvement. The PC can physically accommodate 3 hard drives (the motherboard will take six drives, 3 USB-3 and 3 USB-2 sata drives, but no room in the case for all six. And I can't see myself trying to maintain 6 big HDD's!). For now, the originals get transferred to external drives and then reworked from the Hauppauge's compressed product; that's a big headache, and some obvious quality loss that requires really careful treatment. Thanks for mentioning. I wasn't aware of the AverMedia unit. . . .
    Regarding hard drive set up... Capturing standard definition interlaced content with a lossless codec creates file sizes in the neighborhood of 30-40 GB/hour. Losslessly compressed HD files from the AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e card would be 5 1/3 or 6 times larger. Capturing that amount of data successfully requires a RAID array.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 5th May 2012 at 12:06. Reason: spelling
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  18. Member windyweather's Avatar
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    Reviews indicate that the Avermedia AVerTV HD DVR c027 works quite well.
    Corel video studio pro x5 Ultimate is quite nice. I'll give it a try with the free trial.
    Looks like I need an HDFury4 to clean up the signals and as a splitter.
    BluRay drive from LG and media from Verbatim round out the package.

    Thanks all for weighing in.
    - ww
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  19. Member
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    Originally Posted by windyweather View Post
    Reviews indicate that the Avermedia AVerTV HD DVR c027 works quite well.
    Corel video studio pro x5 Ultimate is quite nice. I'll give it a try with the free trial.
    Looks like I need an HDFury4 to clean up the signals and as a splitter.
    BluRay drive from LG and media from Verbatim round out the package.

    Thanks all for weighing in.
    - ww
    You may not need the HDFury4. There is a software plugin, "HDCP pack", for the Avermedia AVerTV HD DVR. If it works for you, then a powered HDMI splitter is all you need. This is a popular model: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011306&p_id=...seq=1&format=2
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    I have been using the Hauppage Collsus with the hopper connected via HDMI with no problems.
    I have recorded hours of shows in the ts format in Arcsoft Showbiz (supplied) and then cutting comercials with VideoReDo and saving in h264 mp4 format and it works great.
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  21. ^ You're saying the Hopper doesn't encrypt its HDMI output for regular viewing?

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Regarding hard drive set up... Capturing standard definition interlaced content with a lossless codec creates file sizes in the neighborhood of 30-40 GB/hour. Losslessly compressed HD files from the AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e card would be 5 1/3 or 6 times larger. Capturing that amount of data successfully requires a RAID array.
    When using Ut Video, it's around 100GB/hr for 720p60, 1080i60, and 1080p30 in my experience. I think my SD recordings are more like 25GB/hr. No RAID required, provided you aren't trying to record a deliberately noisy test pattern.
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  22. Lone soldier Cauptain's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    ^ You're saying the Hopper doesn't encrypt its HDMI output for regular viewing?

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Regarding hard drive set up... Capturing standard definition interlaced content with a lossless codec creates file sizes in the neighborhood of 30-40 GB/hour. Losslessly compressed HD files from the AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e card would be 5 1/3 or 6 times larger. Capturing that amount of data successfully requires a RAID array.
    When using Ut Video, it's around 100GB/hr for 720p60, 1080i60, and 1080p30 in my experience. I think my SD recordings are more like 25GB/hr. No RAID required, provided you aren't trying to record a deliberately noisy test pattern.

    In theory its necessary, but in theory. I record 720p with UT Video and RAID and normal HD, no problem.

    Name:  bandwidth_SDI.jpg
Views: 3740
Size:  91.0 KB

    720p: the image in the 720p60 format has about 0,922 megapixels per frame (1280×720), with 24-bit color per pixel (RGB) and 60 full images per second it needs a bandwidth of about 1.30 Gbps.

    1080i: the image in the 1080i60 format has about 2.07 megapixels per frame (1920x1080), with 24-bit color per pixel (RGB) and 60 half-images per second it needs a bandwidth of about 1.46 Gbps.

    1080p: the image in the 1080p60 format has about 2.07 megapixels per frame (1920x1080), with 24-bit color per pixel (RGB) and 60 full images per second it needs a bandwidth of about 2.97 Gbps.

    Code:
    Standard Definition
    Frame Size                  MB/second       MB/minute      GB/hour
    720x486/29.97fps (NTSC)       21.5            1288          75.5
    720x576/25fps (PAL)           21.2           1274.4          75
    
    High Definition
    1280x720p/59.94fps            106.8          6409.7         375.6
    1920x1080/50i                 100.3          6020.5         352.8
    1920x1080/59.94i               120           7199.9         421.9
    source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18254633#post18254633



    Claudio
    Last edited by Cauptain; 5th May 2012 at 18:19.
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  23. Member
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    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    ^ You're saying the Hopper doesn't encrypt its HDMI output for regular viewing?

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Regarding hard drive set up... Capturing standard definition interlaced content with a lossless codec creates file sizes in the neighborhood of 30-40 GB/hour. Losslessly compressed HD files from the AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e card would be 5 1/3 or 6 times larger. Capturing that amount of data successfully requires a RAID array.
    When using Ut Video, it's around 100GB/hr for 720p60, 1080i60, and 1080p30 in my experience. I think my SD recordings are more like 25GB/hr. No RAID required, provided you aren't trying to record a deliberately noisy test pattern.
    The figures I quoted were supposed to be for Lagarith and HuffYUV. Maybe things have changed with SATA 6 Gb/s and faster drives, so it is possible to record capture files at 100 GB/hr no problem without using RAID.
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  24. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    ^ You're saying the Hopper doesn't encrypt its HDMI output for regular viewing?

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Regarding hard drive set up... Capturing standard definition interlaced content with a lossless codec creates file sizes in the neighborhood of 30-40 GB/hour. Losslessly compressed HD files from the AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e card would be 5 1/3 or 6 times larger. Capturing that amount of data successfully requires a RAID array.
    When using Ut Video, it's around 100GB/hr for 720p60, 1080i60, and 1080p30 in my experience. I think my SD recordings are more like 25GB/hr. No RAID required, provided you aren't trying to record a deliberately noisy test pattern.
    The figures I quoted were supposed to be for Lagarith and HuffYUV. Maybe things have changed with SATA 6 Gb/s and faster drives, so it is possible to record capture files at 100 GB/hr no problem without using RAID.
    Sustained transfer rates are more in the 90-120 MB/s range for a typical hard drive and this varies for the inner vs outer end of the drive platter. You would need to move to a 10K or 15K RPM Raptor to attempt single disk capture. Best to use a two disk RAID0. A RAID reads one disk from the fast end and the other from the slow end to average to a combined 2x rate over the full range of the drive.

    Here are the uncompressed data rates for a BlackMagic Intensity.

    Name:  bmintensityuc.jpg
Views: 16695
Size:  23.5 KB

    Keep in mind that 1MB/s is equivalent to 8 Mb/s (Bytes vs Bits).

    And yes, 1 hour of uncompressed 1080i takes up 421.9 GB !

    I capture most HD off the Firewire port on my cable box. This way I get their best quality as MPeg2 TS in the 8-16 Mb/s range (~1-2 MB/s). Second I capture OTA or QAM off a tuner card which is also MPeg2 @ 10-16 Mb/s.

    If I were to cap from analog component, I'd compress (MJPEG, Cineform, etc.) to at least fit on a single drive sustained rate. I'm glad I don't need to do that very often.
    Last edited by edDV; 5th May 2012 at 19:42.
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  25. Member windyweather's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    ...
    You may not need the HDFury4. There is a software plugin, "HDCP pack", for the Avermedia AVerTV HD DVR. If it works for you, then a powered HDMI splitter is all you need. This is a popular model: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011306&p_id=...seq=1&format=2
    Yes I see that I don't need the HDFury4. It took some digging on their site, but I finally understand that the HDFury boxes are Digital IN >> Analog OUT boxes. sigh...
    Software plugin? I'll research that. Thanks.

    Originally Posted by n8tvm53 View Post
    I have been using the Hauppage Collsus with the hopper connected via HDMI with no problems.
    I have recorded hours of shows in the ts format in Arcsoft Showbiz (supplied) and then cutting comercials with VideoReDo and saving in h264 mp4 format and it works great.
    Very interesting about the hopper.
    Thanks,
    wp
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  26. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by windyweather View Post
    Originally Posted by n8tvm53 View Post
    I have been using the Hauppage Collsus with the hopper connected via HDMI with no problems.
    I have recorded hours of shows in the ts format in Arcsoft Showbiz (supplied) and then cutting comercials with VideoReDo and saving in h264 mp4 format and it works great.
    Very interesting about the hopper.
    Thanks,
    wp
    So does that mean Dish isn't using HDCP?
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  27. Member windyweather's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    ...
    So does that mean Dish isn't using HDCP?
    On their site: http://www.mydish.com/support/drm
    Scroll down to the HDCP section. Looks like their policies include PPV and Streaming stuff at least are encrypted.

    Not sure. On the hopper, checked several channels: SyFy and ABC Evening News.
    And if you look in Menu >> Settings >> Network setup >> Tests >> HDMI >> HDCP
    it shows you the Encrypted state.
    It shows unencrypted for SyFy live and ABC Evening News playback from DVR event.

    wp
    Last edited by windyweather; 5th May 2012 at 19:39. Reason: clarify
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    Originally Posted by windyweather View Post
    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    ...
    So does that mean Dish isn't using HDCP?
    On their site: http://www.mydish.com/support/drm
    Scroll down to the HDCP section. Looks like their policies include PPV and Streaming stuff at least are encrypted.

    Not sure. On the hopper, checked several channels: SyFy and ABC Evening News.
    And if you look in Menu >> Settings >> Network setup >> Tests >> HDMI >> HDCP
    it shows you the Encrypted state.
    It shows unencrypted for SyFy live and ABC Evening News playback from DVR event.

    wp
    If Dish's DVRs don't apply HDCP to most content, then the Hauppauge Colossus is an option as well as the AVerMedia HD DVR PCI-e. The Colossus's hardware encoder is supposed to do a good job, and would free up your CPU for other tasks, plus it can record 5.1 audio. You would still need a powered HDMI splitter to supply a signal to your TV and the Colossus. The Colossus's component pass-through only works for component input. One thing to be aware of, the Colossus apparently needs to be power cycled every few days, like the Hauppauge HD-PVR USB capture device.

    It is possible Dish could change their policy at some point. Most other paid TV services do apply HDCP to discourage recording using 3rd party devices. That arrangement tends to make both the service provider and the content providers happy. Neither wants subscribers to have portable recordings which might be given to someone who does not have a subscription.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 5th May 2012 at 20:20. Reason: spelling
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    I accualy have it hooked to a receiver in another roon (JOEY) if I hook it straight in it works but if i hook it through a splitter it don't.
    If the JOEY is hookef to anything that supports HDCP it encrypts but hooked to the Colossua alone it Doesn’t. It took me a while to figure that out.
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  30. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Everything on Comcast HDMI is HDCP encrypted but in my community most channels are in the clear over IEEE-1394 (not Premium or PPV).

    If Dish isn't using HDCP, I'll consider changing. If Comcast blocks IEEE-1394, I'll switch anyway.

    Note that I added info on "uncompressed" above.
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