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  1. Member
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    Okay, so outcome:

    Flickering is only there when I move the camcorder and the view is changing.

    Results:

    From Computer to HDTV in Full HD resolution, without sharpening by video card software and TV:

    Original mp4: flickering very little

    Your not sharpened mkv: flickering very little
    Your sharpened mkv: flickering more, it is visible

    When I watch the original mp4 on HDTV from USB and turn sharpening off, there is no flickering at all but blurriness!


    On computer, without sharpening by video card software:

    Original : played with Divix Plus player, there is a little flickering, played with VLC there is no, but the image has combs because of interlacing
    No sharpened mkv doesn't flicker or not that much
    Sharpened mkv is flickerin
    Last edited by Bencuri; 4th May 2012 at 10:12.
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  2. Any time you deinterlace and sharpen a video you create artifacts that may flicker.
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  3. Member
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    So it has no relation to the refresh rate of the TV? It supports both 60 and 50Hz, but I am not sure if I have to swich this maually or if it autodetects what signal is coming from the camcorder. Isn't it possible that the TV's default is 50 Hz, and it doesn't detect that the cam is at 60Hz, and that's why those flickerings are there? I tried to find the refersh rate in the options, but no secion like that, and no info on the info panel of the TV whether 50 or 60 is on at a particular time.
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  4. Originally Posted by Bencuri View Post
    So it has no relation to the refresh rate of the TV?
    Any time the refresh rate of the source doesn't match the refresh rate of the TV you might get some jerkiness or flickering. I don't know exactly what you're seeing on your TV so I can't tell you if it's "normal".
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  5. Member
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by Bencuri View Post
    So it has no relation to the refresh rate of the TV?
    Any time the refresh rate of the source doesn't match the refresh rate of the TV you might get some jerkiness or flickering. I don't know exactly what you're seeing on your TV so I can't tell you if it's "normal".
    However if the refresh rate does not match, the picture should flicker in those cases when the camcorder is looking into one direction, and the view doesn't move, right?
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  6. No, on an LCD there should be no flicker if there is no movement, whether the refresh rates match or not. Look at a JPG image. It doesn't flicker even though the "frame rate" doesn't match the TV. An interlaced CRT will flicker with a still frame if there are sharp horizontal edges.
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  7. Member
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    But actually I remember now I have tested the TV with setting 60 and 50HZ on the laptop when they were connected with HDMI, in both case there was flickering, so I guess it is not the refresh rate that does not match with the video.
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  8. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Uhmm, that pdf is a brochure, not a manual. To see if there is a way to reconfigure, you/we will need the manual.

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  9. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Bencuri View Post
    But actually I remember now I have tested the TV with setting 60 and 50HZ on the laptop when they were connected with HDMI, in both case there was flickering, so I guess it is not the refresh rate that does not match with the video.
    In that scenario, there's the native refresh of the source (file), the refresh of the vid card and the refresh of the TV - all of which should match for best presentation.

    Scott
    "When will the rhetorical questions end?!" - George Carlin
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  10. Member
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Originally Posted by Bencuri View Post
    But actually I remember now I have tested the TV with setting 60 and 50HZ on the laptop when they were connected with HDMI, in both case there was flickering, so I guess it is not the refresh rate that does not match with the video.
    In that scenario, there's the native refresh of the source (file), the refresh of the vid card and the refresh of the TV - all of which should match for best presentation.

    Scott
    Actually all my laptops go on 60Hz, as this is the laptop LCD default here. No other value can be selected. So taking it into consideration, it cannot be a refresh rate problem, I suspect. The file is 60 fps, lcd is 60Hz, and there is flickering when sharpening is on. So I doubt it would be the Hz difference, then. Also, when sharpening is off, there is no flickering. So I guess it is not the refresh rate.

    Anyway my camcorder can record in 720p. I never used that, soon I go and make some videos using that. We'll see then if that flickering is from the interlacing or not.
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    Today I recorded some video with my camcorder, this time in 720p. I noticed the flickering is still there to some extent, so I guess it is not surely the intarlacing that causes that. It seems as if it was the autofocus or some other mechanism. But okay, it is not that a big problem anyway.

    However I noticed something else. In 720p my camcorder records in 60fps. It is significantly better in performance while watched on my HDTV than using it in 1080i 60 fields per second, the video is much more constant, no small jumps, that arise in 1080i. And in 720p the picture is also sharper, however there are less details. But there is a big problem, and these are the colors. In 720p the colors are not as awesome as in 1080i. And I really miss this, because I love the colors of my camcorder when it records in 1080i.

    So I would continue recording in 1080i, rather than in 720p, but then the problem again is that when I watch those 1080i videos on my HDTV, there are small jumps, and the video is always a little bit jerky, and it is irritating. For example when my hand is shaking, in 720p it is not irritating, it is constant, but that shaking in 1080i is not a constant move, jerkier, and irritating to watch. Even if the zoom is in 0. So in 720p the stabilizer's effect it better than in 1080i. What might cause this difference in jerkiness?:

    -The fact that my device records with 30fps in 1080i?
    - My HDTV? My HDTV manual says it supports 60i, but does it mean it displays the video in this format, or it only refers to the input, and the displaying happens in p, actually? How is this in case of HDTV-s? Here is the manual of my TV: http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/3/32pfl5604h_12/32pfl5604h_12_pss_aen.pdf
    As I understand it displays in p, right?
    - Do you think this jerkiness would disappear if I'd watch the 1080i videos on a TV that displays interlaced picture? I have a projector, it can display interlaced image in 60Hz. I cannot connect the camcorder to it at the moment, because don't have the needed cable, but it would be possible anyway. Do you think it worth's a try, or that probably wouldn't help? If it helps, I might buy that cable.

    What is your opinion?
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  12. Unfortunately, the Philips flyer isn't very illuminating. I suspect your TV always runs at 50p. The jerkiness you're seeing is likely due to poor deinterlacing and frame rate conversion in the TV. I think the 60 Hz projector is worth a try. I don't see why 1920x1080i30 and 1280x720p60 should have different colors. Do they look different on the camcorder's display?
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  13. Member
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    It sounds like all the "flickering" from your sharpening - since there is no flickering when you turn it off

    A 60Hz projector should look the same as your 60Hz LCD on your laptop. "i" or "p" don't matter in terms of motion. 60i is bob deinterlaced to 60p when you have it set up correctly - so the motion characteristics should be the same

    720p60 and 1080i60 should have the same motion characteristics. It doesn't make any sense that 720p60 is less irritating to watch, or less jerky. Perhaps the differences were due to the individual tests (maybe you had a big coffee before shooting the 1080i60 run, and your hands were jittery)

    So how did your tests look on the laptop 60Hz LCD? In order to play the 1080i60 file you have to set it up to bob deinterlace properly
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  14. Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    720p60 and 1080i60 should have the same motion characteristics. It doesn't make any sense that 720p60 is less irritating to watch, or less jerky.
    I was thinking maybe the TV was decimating 30i to 25i first, then bob deinterlacing to 50p. I also thought it might be performing a poor motion interpolation but the flyer didn't say it was a 100 Hz TV.
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  15. Member
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    720p60 and 1080i60 should have the same motion characteristics. It doesn't make any sense that 720p60 is less irritating to watch, or less jerky.
    I was thinking the maybe the TV was decimating 30i to 25i first, then bob deinterlacing to 50p. I also thought it might be performing a poor motion interpolation but the flyer didn't say it was a 100 Hz TV.

    Yes, that could be true too...

    I didn't look at the flyer, but even full spec manuals rarely have that much detailed information on what really happens in the internal processing pathway
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  16. Member
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    Here is the manual, anyway:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/43265115/Complete-User-Manual-Philips-32pfl5604


    I don't know if there were differences in the shooting circumstance on tests, but I will do more tests. However the colors really look different. When shooting in 1080p, the colors are very balanced, in 720p they seems like being vivid, too much. However the 720p video is much more constant. My 1080p videos was only this fluid when I burnt that 60i to 25i conversion test to DVD, and watched that on analogue TV. The handshakes were much more tolerable, the weren't iritating that much when I watched the DVD on my laptop. That's why I thought the 1080i video might be better on soemthing that displays an interlaced pictures, and doesn't change anything to p.

    But I will do some more tests.

    Anyway, I didn't check the new 720p videos on my laptop yet, but when I did tests earlier, on my laptop the 720p videos were also more constant, there were not that much jerkyness. When I records in 1080i, there are more jumps when I am moving the camcorder, in 720p there are much much less. Isn't it because of that in 720p the camcorder records in 60fps (it is written in the menu), and in 1080i with 30 (you reported that is the true value)?

    And there is a problem by the way, that on computer I cannot check these interlaced videos correctly, because if I run VLC player, for example, and try any of the deinterlacing methods, they don't really work. When choosing yadif and Yadif 2x, the videos freezes. When using bob, the video becomes slowed down and the playback is inconsistent. The most consistant the video is when leaving on "no deinterlacing", then the speed is more or less okay, but then there are the combs visible. Soon I'll install Windows 7 on my i5 laptop, so I can use the Nvidia card on that, then I can make better tests on the computer I think.
    Last edited by Bencuri; 7th May 2012 at 14:17.
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  17. Member
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    Guys!

    You told me the best would be if I could upload a sample to show you the problem of the flickering of my videos files that I can see on HDTV. I didn't really have a good sample, and I cannot record the TV screen, but today I managed to make a video that shows the problem very well. The mp4 I attached is the raw file.


    If I watch this on HDTV, when the view is stable, there is no flickering, but when the view is moving, the whole screen starts vibrating. This is a 720p 60fps mp4. When I watch it on my laptop, I can see the vibrating, too.


    When I convert the file in HCgui, the flickering is much less, however, it is by far not that disturbing. I attached an mpg that is from the mp4, and is 25fps.

    Here are the samples, it is fast download sevrer: https://www.wetransfer.com/dl/9221vxWZ/3b1e2cb8220dac3fdbaee4d8b7b2c5a88be7133fc03cb62...d5ced34391a43f
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  18. Are you talking about the way the exposure of you camera seems to vary randomly now and then? Like, in the 720p60 clip, between frames 1679 (lighter) and 1680 (darker) when viewed with VirtualDub. Between frames 1709 and 1710, etc. That's a problem with your camera.

    (The exact frame numbers may vary depending on what source filter you are using and what filters you have installed.)
    Last edited by jagabo; 23rd May 2012 at 19:24.
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  19. Member
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    The truth is that I cannot see the effect of this vibration when I check the frames, from one frame to the other. I open the file in Virtualdub, I add max sharpening so that I enhance this vibrating as much as possible on the laptop. This way when I press play, I can see the vibrating, but when I just step from one frame to the other, I cannot see the difference between the two frames, nor other frames. But the vibrating is there in that section where the frames you mention are situated.

    Anyway, I found a better demonstration video on Youtube. It is clearly showing a same vibration that is also happening on my video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCZo6FSrnDg

    From 0:47, you can see an edited video, and you can see that it is also vibrating. It is a kind of strobing effect. A constant strobing. Now, the situation is the same in case of my videos. But it my videos the strobing is visible on darker portions of the video image, usually. Like on a dark roof or tree on a lighter background. When the image is made up of objects of same color brightness, the strobing doesn't appear, or it is not visible.

    So what is this exactly? My camcorder became faulty?
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  20. I don't see anything near as bad as depicted in that Youtube video. But you also have some GOP strobing. The camera isn't using sufficient bitrate for I frames so their quality is low. In subsequent P frames the picture quality increases. Eventually the next I frame comes along and the quality drops again. This is also where the brightness fluctuates, the I frames are darker and the brightness increases of the rest of the GOP. The GOP size is 30 so you get two strobe per second. These are all problems in the camera.

    The attached video switches back and forth between two frames every half second.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by jagabo; 24th May 2012 at 11:43.
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  21. Member
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    Yes, I can see the difference. The portions are changing between darker and brighter. I see thins thing. But on laptop LCD it is not that enhanced, however I turn max sharpening on. I can see it, but the strobing is much more difficult to catch. However when I watch it on HDTV with shaprening on 7 out of 10 (as default), the strobing is as enhanced as in that Youtube video. It is very disturbing. It is as strong as in case of very old films wher the picture is flcikering very much.

    So this is a production problem? Can't it be corrected in a repair service?

    Anyway I did some more test. I turned everything to manual: exposure, iso, set white balance to sunny preset, stabilization off, only left autofocus on. There was strobing. But interestingly when I turned the autofocus off, too, the strobing stopped. Here are the samples below. The second file is without autofocus. The strobing is the most enhanced when I am moving the view back to the left from the fence.
    Attached Files
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  22. Are you sure you uploaded the right files? SANY2268.MP4 is very blurry. That's probably why it flickers less. You've also gone back to 1080i mode.
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  23. Member
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    Sorry, indeed. I did tests with both 1080i and 720p. I have attached the 720p files below this time.

    The interesting is that in 1080i the strobing is visible when I start moving the camcorder or when I stop the movement, during movement it is not visible. Or when I am pointing to one direction, and my hand is shaking. In 720p there is no strobing when I point to one direction, but when I start moving the camcorder, there is strobing. When I switch the autofocus off, the strobing stops. The smaples without autofocus are blurry, because I didn't set the manual focus correctly. I have done another test in 1080i however, with manual focus set better, this video is sharp:

    https://www.wetransfer.com/dl/XFLVJ7Ma/6c2a3e21d56159de96ef6c0eaff392c962262c366ca2b0d...653ca9a39997a3

    On this video I don't see the strobing at all when I watch it on HDTV, either. The storbing only occurs with autofocus on.

    Anyway, Johnnywalker, that member who asked you about converting his Sanyo FH1 mp4 60p files to 25i, has sent me samples from his camcorder. When I watch those videos on my HDTV, I can see the strobing, too. I sent him my videos, when he watched it he said he doesn't see the strobing. It just complicates the whole thing further. It seems both the cacmorder autofocus and both the TV is doing something wrong here. But here on my Lenovo B560A laptop, I can also see the strobing very much. So I am sure this is not the TV that gone wrong.

    But all in all, here the strobing is almost as strong sometimes as on that Youtube video I linked. It is just not visible constantly, only occasionally, on various portions of the video, that is the difference.

    I will do another test in 720p where the manual focus is set better, but until then here are the samples below in 720p I mentioned above. Maybe it helps.
    Attached Files
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  24. Regarding your 1080i files, VLC plays them with the wrong field order. That result in very bad strobing whenever there is motion. Start VLC, put it in Bob or Yadif2x deinterlace mode. Play your 1080i files. You'll be knocked out of your seat. Change the deinterlace mode to Discard. Play the 1080i video. It should still flicker a little bit because it is displaying at 30 fps, not 60.

    Here's y our SANY2269.MP4 video blurred (about the same bluriness as the other video) and reencoded. Does it flicker?
    Attached Files
    Last edited by jagabo; 25th May 2012 at 12:18.
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  25. Member
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Regarding your 1080i files, VLC plays them with the wrong field order. That result in very bad strobing whenever there is motion. Start VLC, put it in Bob or Yadif2x deinterlace mode. Play your 1080i files. You'll be knocked out of your seat. Change the deinterlace mode to Discard. Play the 1080i video. It should still flicker a little bit because it is displaying at 30 fps, not 60.

    Here's y our SANY2269.MP4 video blurred (about the same bluriness as the other video) and reencoded. Does it flicker?
    I can see the flickering you refer to in VLC.

    Yes, I can see the strobing on this video, two, when watching on HDTV. When I start panning, there is a constant, even strobing on the whole image until I stop. When there is no panning, there is no strobing either.

    Interestinly, in 1080i, when I am panning, the whole video is very continuous and there is no strobing at all. When there is no panning, and only my hand is shaking, the stobing appears, but only momentarily. In 1080i, for example, that wire fence that you can see in this video that you attached, on the right side, stobes a bit when my hand is shaking or when I start panning. But only the fence. Other times other objects are strobing. Like a part of a tree, etc. In 720p it is different. On stable image there is no strobing, but on movement, there is a sontinuous strobing. If I switch autofocus off, this strobing stops in 1080i, the video looks very good, but it is not always sharp. Sometimes it is sharp, sometimes it is not, due to the manual focus. But there is no strobing at all, no matter if the image is sharp or not. However in 720p with manual focus, I have observed there is still a little strobing visible on panning, that continuous strobing on the whole image. Anyway, interestingly, since I changed to the Sandisk Extreme SD card, in 1080i, the video is continuous, very fluent. But when I record in a resolution less than that (those options are all in p), there are small jumps and jerks occasionally in the video. The video is not fluent, just like in case of my previous Fuji Class 10 SD card. But with the Fuji, the 1080i were also not fluent, either. It seems the camcorder is making errors when I record in a format other than 1080i. As if something wouldn't go smooth.

    Additionally, if I switch off the Dynamic Contrast on my HDTV, the 1080i video improves a lot, there is much less strobing. If I switch on, there is much more. If I do it in 720p, there is strobing, no matter I switch off or not.

    I will reinstall a Windows 7 on my Lenovo B560 laptop this weekend with my Nvidia card, and I will analyze this strobing thing more. I will connect it to the TV running VirtualDUB, and try to go frame by frame and locate the problematic parts. MAybe that way I can show you the problematic places hopefully, and I will report the outcome. Maybe it will be easier to locate the source of the problems, then.
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