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  1. Originally Posted by VenusAndMars View Post
    Anything's fine by me as long as we agree. 'You say tomato...' etc. But I do hope the better system wins. I remember, because I was around at the time, how the technically superior (at the time at least) BetaMax video standard lost out to VHS for reasons unknown to me.
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    I think it was literally due to the Sony tax. You wanted to manufacture a Betamax recorder/player, you had to pay Sony for the privilege. So most companies went VHS.
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  2. Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    OK love and kisses but in time shouldn't 50Hz video phase out?

    This would be done by dual standard in "PAL land" until everything is 60Hz.
    That'd be awesome. Watching everything with 60hz NTSC "judder".

    Once a "film" mode is a standard feature in TVs, or they're all capable of higher refresh rates etc, then maybe I wouldn't care if 50hz went away, but until then I'm perfectly happy watching everything at 25fps/50hz. In fact thanks to Reclock and using a PC as a media player, I can speed 24fps video up to 25fps on the fly so I watch everything at 25fps to effectively use a "PAL film mode". Fortunately for 29.970fps video I can also switch the refresh rate to 60hz, but I don't need to do that very often.
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    As said above, Philips DVD players are most likely to internally convert PAL to "NTSC" (composite or YPbPr). The Philips 5990/5992 is also known to work.

    Blu-Ray players are more likely to play PAL SD DVD but this to varies by manufacturer policy. This is normally not included in published spec.
    How does the PAL to NTSC conversion work? I've read that PAL DVDs have a 4% speedup if you watch them on a PAL DVD player and TV. But if you watch a PAL DVD on a player that does PAL to NTSC conversion, will the conversion to NTSC impact the speed at all? Or will there still be a 4% speedup?
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    Originally Posted by sldvd View Post

    How does the PAL to NTSC conversion work? I've read that PAL DVDs have a 4% speedup if you watch them on a PAL DVD player and TV. But if you watch a PAL DVD on a player that does PAL to NTSC conversion, will the conversion to NTSC impact the speed at all? Or will there still be a 4% speedup?
    The resolution is converted to NTSC resolution. In the past on cheaper players, even by Philips, this might be done by cropping the image to NTSC resolution. Most players now downscale the full image to NTSC resolution. I'm sorry but I don't know how the frame rate issue is handled. Maybe someone else does.
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    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    We in the US get tired of hearing that our measurement system and electrical standards needs to be completely abandoned and made to conform with standards used elsewhere. The people suggesting it rarely think about the cost of making the conversion or the disruption it would cause in everyday life, or how rude they are being by suggesting it.
    Where I am our currency went metric while I was two. The conversion to metric for everything else started when I was around ten, but in some areas it took many years for a complete transition in order not to burden industry too much. I still think of weight in imperial and length in metric. For years I had to convert kms back to miles to appreciate distance/speed.
    Like much of the rest of the world, we manged to cope.
    Oh good, another rude idiot. We already use the metric system along side our own in the US for 90% of goods, and every child has learned it in school for close to 50 years. Many of us use it in our work. We do not want it for everyday use, we won't use it, so just shut up about the need for us to do as the rest of the world does. There is no need at all.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 14th Apr 2012 at 10:35.
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  6. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Oh good, another rude idiot. We already use the metric system along side our own in the US for 90% of goods, and every child has learned it in school for close to 50 years. Many of us use it in our work. We do not want it for everyday use, we won't use it, so just shut up about the need for us to do as the rest of the world does. There is no need at all.
    Just so I'm clear...... you won't use or convert to the metric system despite the fact you already use it along side your own system for 90% of goods, every child has learned it in school and many of you actually do use it in your work already... because the disruption to every day life converting to a system everyone has been taught and is already widely used would be way too great. Does that about sum up your last couple of posts?

    It's funny, but I don't recall getting my nappies all twisted over someone suggesting the PAL system should be dropped. I didn't feel the need to call the poster rude or an idiot or tell them to shut up. I didn't even suggest you should switch to metric although your inferiority complex obviously caused you to miss that fact. I just pointed out that most of the rest of the world seemed to manage the conversion to metric despite your stated concerns regarding your own country's ability to cope. But of course where I live there was no misconception the Quarter Pounder would have to be renamed and half the population wouldn't be able to work out what to order for lunch.
    Last edited by hello_hello; 16th Apr 2012 at 00:18.
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    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Oh good, another rude idiot. We already use the metric system along side our own in the US for 90% of goods, and every child has learned it in school for close to 50 years. Many of us use it in our work. We do not want it for everyday use, we won't use it, so just shut up about the need for us to do as the rest of the world does. There is no need at all.
    Just so I'm clear...... you won't convert to the metric system despite the fact you already use it along side your own system for 90% of goods, every child has learned it in school and many of you actually do use it in your work anyway.... because the disruption to every day life converting to a system everyone has been taught and is already widely used would be way to great. Does that about sum up your last couple of posts?

    It's funny, but I don't recall getting my nappies all twisted over someone suggesting the PAL system should be dropped. I didn't feel the need to call them rude or an idiot. I didn't even suggest you should switch to metric, just pointed out most of the rest of the world seemed to manage it despite your concerns. But of course where I live there was no chance of riots in the streets over a misconception the Quarter Pounder would have to be renamed and half the population wouldn't be able to work out what to order for lunch.
    We have rejected the idea consistently since about 1800 when Thomas Jefferson first brought it up. Frankly we are all tired of having many conversations with foreign visitors that turn into a lecture about how we need to use the metric system for everything to be like everybody else. ..or how simple it would be for us to do it. How we choose conduct our personal lives in this country is really nobody else's business, including yours. If you are not an idiot, or rude, then mind your own business and drop the subject.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 16th Apr 2012 at 00:50.
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  8. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    We have rejected the idea consistently since about 1800 when Thomas Jefferson first brought it up. Frankly we are all tired of having many conversations with foreign visitors that turn into a lecture about how we need to use the metric system for everything to be like everybody else.
    No wonder a conversion to metric might be a bit hard, you're too tired after voluntarily continuing to participate in a conversation you're tired of participating in.

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    How we choose conduct our personal lives in this country is really nobody else's business, including yours. If you are not an idiot, or rude, then mind your own business and drop the subject.
    Speaking of idiots... you're still not grasping the concept I've not stated once you should convert to metric, only pointed out that other countries have managed to do it despite the concerns you have for your own country's ability to do so. If you've got some facts to support your claims such as "the cost of conversion" (to a system you admit is widely used anyway) or how it would cause "a major disruption to daily life", then by all means share them. Otherwise you possibly should do the shutting up as at the moment you just sound like a child having a tantrum.
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    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    We have rejected the idea consistently since about 1800 when Thomas Jefferson first brought it up. Frankly we are all tired of having many conversations with foreign visitors that turn into a lecture about how we need to use the metric system for everything to be like everybody else.
    No wonder a conversion to metric might be a bit hard, you're too tired after voluntarily continuing to participate in a conversation you're tired of participating in.

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    How we choose conduct our personal lives in this country is really nobody else's business, including yours. If you are not an idiot, or rude, then mind your own business and drop the subject.
    Speaking of idiots... you're still not grasping the concept I've not stated once you should convert to metric, only pointed out that other countries have managed to do it despite the concerns you have for your own country's ability to do so. If you've got some facts to support your claims such as "the cost of conversion" (to a system you admit is widely used anyway) or how it would cause "a major disruption to daily life", then by all means share them. Otherwise you possibly should do the shutting up as at the moment you just sound like a child having a tantrum.
    Telling me that other countries have done this without much difficulty is part two of the lecture that Americans are sick of hearing from foreigners, and it is a back door way of saying "convert". Your meaning was very clear.

    [Edit]Maybe your memory is bad about what happened in your country when the metric system was imposed. In some countries, Britain was one, a segment of the population resisted it and complained about the cost. Of course I don't know which country you mean, since that is a secret.

    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    But of course where I live there was no chance of riots in the streets over a misconception the Quarter Pounder would have to be renamed and half the population wouldn't be able to work out what to order for lunch.
    I didn't mention the bit about about quarter pounders, which was bigoted to say the least. So I guess it has been established to a high degree of certainty that you are a bigot as well as rude.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 16th Apr 2012 at 09:31.
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    Take it offline. Nobody else cares about your personal battle, unusually_quiet and hello_hello.
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  11. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    OK love and kisses but in time shouldn't 50Hz video phase out?

    This would be done by dual standard in "PAL land" until everything is 60Hz.
    That'd be awesome. Watching everything with 60hz NTSC "judder".

    Once a "film" mode is a standard feature in TVs, or they're all capable of higher refresh rates etc, then maybe I wouldn't care if 50hz went away, but until then I'm perfectly happy watching everything at 25fps/50hz. In fact thanks to Reclock and using a PC as a media player, I can speed 24fps video up to 25fps on the fly so I watch everything at 25fps to effectively use a "PAL film mode". Fortunately for 29.970fps video I can also switch the refresh rate to 60hz, but I don't need to do that very often.
    The judder issue is removed in 120Hz+ TV sets that are now the norm here. Also, "film mode" processing is standard it both 60Hz and 120Hz models. So all is fine with the digital conversion in the 60Hz world.

    The only problem we have (for the average Joe) is inability to play 50Hz source unless one shops carefully for equipment. The two classes of customers that care are immigrants that want access to home language media and videophiles into foreign language movies with subtitles.
    Last edited by edDV; 16th Apr 2012 at 10:15.
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  12. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sldvd View Post
    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    As said above, Philips DVD players are most likely to internally convert PAL to "NTSC" (composite or YPbPr). The Philips 5990/5992 is also known to work.

    Blu-Ray players are more likely to play PAL SD DVD but this to varies by manufacturer policy. This is normally not included in published spec.
    How does the PAL to NTSC conversion work? I've read that PAL DVDs have a 4% speedup if you watch them on a PAL DVD player and TV. But if you watch a PAL DVD on a player that does PAL to NTSC conversion, will the conversion to NTSC impact the speed at all? Or will there still be a 4% speedup?
    Chipset PAL-NTSC conversion can be done several ways depending on the sophistication of the player. The better techniques require several frames of memory. DVD progressive movies are easiest to convert. The playback is simply slowed 4% to 23.976 fps and 720x576 is scaled to 720x480. For upscaling models, a second set of scaling values is used for SD PAL source. Audio must be processed to the new frame rate. For Blu-Ray, the resolution is the same at 1920x1080 so it is only an audio/video frame rate issue.

    PAL interlace video presents more challenge. The cheaper "multi-system" models do a simple deinterlace to 25fps then re-interpolate to 29.97p using various methods. The better players maintain 50Hz motion by upscaling fields to 1080p, then re-interpolate 50fps to 59.94fps..
    Last edited by edDV; 16th Apr 2012 at 10:08.
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    The 50Hz vs 60Hz issue is the new Berlin/Chinese wall. It prevents the 50Hz world from full participation in the digital transition.
    Whaaaat?
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  14. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by intracube View Post
    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    The 50Hz vs 60Hz issue is the new Berlin/Chinese wall. It prevents the 50Hz world from full participation in the digital transition.
    Whaaaat?
    Just sayin'.

    The film world is locked to 24p and the computer/telco world is 30/60p based. Time for 25/50 to start phaseout for home/mobile device display. Similar to analog, HD displays should be dual standard for legacy support.
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    The film world is locked to 24p and the computer/telco world is 30/60p based. Time for 25/50 to start phaseout for home/mobile device display. Similar to analog, HD displays should be dual standard for legacy support.
    With the introduction of digital cinema, the film world won't be limited to 24p for long. It's anyone's guess on which frame-rates become standardised. The Hobbit has been shot at 48p - easily converted to 50i, but will mismatch with 60i and 120fps systems. But the industry might adopt 60p:
    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/james-cameron-urges-industry-use-173577

    Computers don't really have a standard though - anywhere from 60 to 85Hz is common (but LCD panels are 60Hz).

    What do you mean by 'telco'? Video conferencing or something else?

    I don't see the transition from 25/50->30/60 as being less painful than the reverse.
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    There is strong resistance in the film world to moving up from 24 fps except for effects movies. 48p is easily compatible with 240Hz displays (i.e 5x48 = 240, 4x60 = 240).

    Computers don't really have a standard though - anywhere from 60 to 85Hz is common (but LCD panels are 60Hz).
    I'm not thinking computer monitor refresh rate but default video frame rates supported by computational devices, even digital cameras. 30/60 fps is the usual default with 25/50 fps support a special case.

    For telco, I'm thinking wireless mobile devices of all kinds. Again 15/30/60 fps seems to be the default at the codec level.

    I don't see the transition from 25/50->30/60 as being less painful than the reverse.
    Most PAL displays also support some form of 60Hz from PAL60 to VGA60 to DVI/HDMI 60p rates. Few 60Hz monitors or TV sets support 50Hz. There is no compelling reason to do so.

    The main argument to continue 25/50 fps is for live broadcast in uncontrolled lighting environments. This would also apply to home camcorders even though most digital cameras shoot only 30p.

    The main problem shooting 25/50 fps is lack of support outside the 50Hz world unless converted to 24/30/60 fps.
    Last edited by edDV; 16th Apr 2012 at 17:59.
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    There is strong resistance in the film world to moving up from 24 fps except for effects movies. 48p is easily compatible with 240Hz displays (i.e 5x48 = 240, 4x60 = 240).
    Whether the resistance is rational is another matter. I know 24p has a certain 'quality' but IMO quite a bit is familiarity/association. 240Hz sets are still in a minority in the US and I don't know if UK/European TVs support it.

    Most PAL displays also support some form of 60Hz from PAL60 to VGA60 to DVI/HDMI 60p rates. Few 60Hz monitors or TV sets support 50Hz. There is no compelling reason to do so.
    As you say, the only reason for adopting new standards is if there's benefits in doing so - or at least perceived benefits. I'd like to see some US shows at their native frame-rates without having to import DVDs, but most people in the UK wouldn't care.

    It's strange, aspect ratio and resolution have been easily sold to the general public, yet frame-rate hasn't. Plenty of TV networks have internet VOD services in HD, but how many go above 25/30p? YouTube has offered HD for several years, but what about 50/59.97i at even 640x360/854x480 resolutions. Unless there's some limitation with Flash which limits it to 30p or less.
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  18. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Telling me that other countries have done this without much difficulty is part two of the lecture that Americans are sick of hearing from foreigners, and it is a back door way of saying "convert". Your meaning was very clear.
    Yes, I was very clear in stating that most other countries have converted despite the concerns you expressed as reasons for not doing so. It was not a back-door method of saying you should convert, just that your objections for not doing so don't seem particularly valid.

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    [Edit]Maybe your memory is bad about what happened in your country when the metric system was imposed. In some countries, Britain was one, a segment of the population resisted it and complained about the cost. Of course I don't know which country you mean, since that is a secret.
    No, it's no secret. I'm in Australia. And while I was pretty young at the time I recall lots of Chicken Little type claims similar to yours, but as it turned out, the sky didn't fall on anyone's head, and we weren't already using the metric system along side our own as you claim you do, although I'm sure it was permissible to use both for a considerable period of time.

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    I didn't mention the bit about about quarter pounders, which was bigoted to say the least. So I guess it has been established to a high degree of certainty that you are a bigot as well as rude.
    It was a response to being accused of being a rude idiot for no apparent reason. The only thing we've established now is you're inability to distinguish between cause and effect and your inability to appreciate posting with a bigoted attitude is going to invite a bigoted reply. It's funny really....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot
    Bigotry is the state of mind of a "bigot," a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance or animosity toward members of a group.

    Remind me, which one of us told the other to shut up and called the other a rude idiot for expressing their opinion?
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    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Telling me that other countries have done this without much difficulty is part two of the lecture that Americans are sick of hearing from foreigners, and it is a back door way of saying "convert". Your meaning was very clear.
    Yes, I was very clear in stating that most other countries have converted despite the concerns you expressed as reasons for not doing so. It was not a back-door method of saying you should convert, just that your objections for not doing so don't seem particularly valid.

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    [Edit]Maybe your memory is bad about what happened in your country when the metric system was imposed. In some countries, Britain was one, a segment of the population resisted it and complained about the cost. Of course I don't know which country you mean, since that is a secret.
    No, it's no secret. I'm in Australia. And while I was pretty young at the time I recall lots of Chicken Little type claims similar to yours, but as it turned out, the sky didn't fall on anyone's head, and we weren't already using the metric system along side our own as you claim you do, although I'm sure it was permissible to use both for a considerable period of time.

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    I didn't mention the bit about about quarter pounders, which was bigoted to say the least. So I guess it has been established to a high degree of certainty that you are a bigot as well as rude.
    It was a response to being accused of being a rude idiot for no apparent reason. The only thing we've established now is you're inability to distinguish between cause and effect and your inability to appreciate posting with a bigoted attitude is going to invite a bigoted reply. It's funny really....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot
    Bigotry is the state of mind of a "bigot," a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance or animosity toward members of a group.

    Remind me, which one of us told the other to shut up and called the other a rude idiot for expressing their opinion?
    Another party has asked us to stop, and they have a point. I suggest that you do that before the mods step in and do it for you.
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  20. Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    The judder issue is removed in 120Hz+ TV sets that are now the norm here. Also, "film mode" processing is standard it both 60Hz and 120Hz models. So all is fine with the digital conversion in the 60Hz world.
    I've got a TV which is only capable of 60Hz or 50Hz. It's also got a "film" mode though but it's not a true 1080/24p "film mode". It can't be because 60 isn't an even multiple of 24. In fact I've never been able to work out exactly what it's supposed to achieve. The TV's manual basically says it adjusts the picture for optimum quality, so it's one of those things I disable.

    The model up from mine has an additional film mode called "cinema smooth". According to the manual "cinema smooth is only activated when a 24Hz signal is fed to the TV", which to the best of my knowledge is only ever going to happen when using a Bluray player which is playing a 24fps disc and is capable of 24Hz output. Or maybe when connected via a PC video card capable of 24Hz.

    When it comes to watching video I rarely use the Bluray player, and most of the video I watch is in MKV format. Do other media players output at 24Hz or 120Hz etc according to the frame rate, or is 1080/24p (film mode) something you're never going to get unless your playing a disc with a player which supports it?

    While you say 120Hz+ TVs are the norm where you are, I'd be keen to know under what circumstances they run at a true 24hz/120Hz refresh rate, or rather what the true input refresh rate is. Basically though, if you're connecting a standard DVD/Bluray player and it's only connecting at 60Hz, then it doesn't matter if the TV is refreshing the screen at 12000000Hz, I assume you're still going to get the same NTSC judder because of the input refresh rate. For 120Hz+ sets to remove the judder, doesn't the input refresh rate have to be an exact multiple of 24?

    Of course there's TVs capable of interpolating frames to produce a smooth motion effect, but that's a different story. Is it commonplace for TVs to have that ability or is it still only the more expensive models?

    I can't bring myself to believe "film mode" in a 60Hz TV is anything but marketing which is intended to be misleading, and I'd be keen to know if all LCDs marketed as being 120Hz do really have a true 24Hz input or if the 120Hz screen refresh rate thing is just used as marketing to make it sound like they do. Similar to the way Plasmas are often advertised as having "600Hz Subfield Motion" to make it sound like they have higher refresh rates than LCDs. They're still 60Hz TVs though.
    Last edited by hello_hello; 17th Apr 2012 at 04:18.
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  21. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Another party has asked us to stop, and they have a point. I suggest that you do that before the mods step in and do it for you.
    So..... stop posting then.
    I suggest you follow your own advice before the hypocrisy police knock on your door with a warrant. You're quite funny.
    Last edited by hello_hello; 17th Apr 2012 at 00:35.
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