So basically, what you're saying is that Neat will temporarily convert your clip to YCBCr in order to do it's work, but exports to RGB when it's finished?
If so, that makes sense, since my exported AVI from V-Dub (after running it through neat) reads as RGB.
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I'm saying the extra conversion isn't occuring (YV12 , I420, or NV12), beyond vdub's RGB conversion
1) I'm saying YV12 source => Vdub converts to RGB in full processing mode => neat video works in RGB => export RGB
2) themaster1 is saying YV12 source=> Vdub RGB => Neat video converts to YCbCr => Neat Video exports RGB => export RGB
If (2) was correct, it would look worse than YV12 source => Vdub RGB => full process but no filter use => export RGB, but it doesn't. If (2) was correct, then using RGB as input source would show deterioration in chroma as it gets converted to YCbCr, but it doesn't
If (1) was correct it would look the same as YV12 source => Vdub RGB => full process but no filter use => export RGB , and this is what is happening on my mini test -
[QUOTE=unclescoob;2148662]And as far as this color space stuff is concerned, Sanlyn, on prior posts you have mentioned prepping your clips in Avisynth and then sending them over to Virtualdub for NeatVideo finishing touches. Now those who use Neat know that it converts your video to YCbCr. Here's what the workflow looks like:
MPEG and most DV are YV12. I capture from VHS into YUY2 (huffyuv). When working in Avisynth, I don't go back and forth between these (some plugins work in both, some don't). There are a few Avisynth plugins I sometimes use that require YUY2, so I use those first if I'm already in YUY2 -- if I'm not in YUY2 already but have started in YV12, I'd rather avoid an extra conversion and will try to find another way to handle the same problem. Then I move to anything that needs YV12-only. Once I go to VirtualDub/RGB, I stay there until I encode. I don't switch in and out of colorspaces. If I find I have to go back to an earlier colorspace routine, I re-start from scratch - which means I save a lot of work along the way until I get my final clip.
Converts to RGB only if you use a VirtualDub or other RGB plugin, or use "Full processing mode". If all I want from VirtualDub is to see the results of Avisynth, then I set "Color Depth" to YV12 (or whatever), "Compression" to huff or lagarith, mode to "Fast recompress", Then "Save as AVI . . .". The fun comes when you forget to reset all the switches, later realize what you did, and have to run the damn thing again .
As poisondeathray noted, NeatVideo calls it "YCbCr" by default (which is more like YUY2 4:2:2 -- but in any event it is not YV12). It's a proprietary colorspace and only their hairdresser knows what it really is. Many retail apps do their own thing. NeatVideo also has a special mode they recommend for b&w grayscale video. But it outputs RGB.
I don't send it back to Avisynth/YV12 for encoding. If it's in RGB I'm more than likely going to send it to TMPGenc, which like many Adobe and similar apps works in RGB. If I'm going to encode with HCenc or CCE (which I sometimes use), I convert RGB -> YUV, keep it as a separate AVI to check for any conversion problems, then open it with the encoder.
I don't always use NeatVideo or RGB, but when I do it's after I've completed all YUV processing. Then:
Code:AssumeTFF() # <-or AssumeBFF(), whichever applies. ConvertToRGB32(matrix="Rec601", interlaced=true) # <- interlaced ConvertToRGB32(matrix="Rec601", interlaced=false) # <- not interlaced
If I've gone thru all this rigmarole to get my MPEG and find that I really needed to do fix something that must be done in YUV, then I go back to my original YUV starting clip, or back to the YUV step where I screwed up, and re-start from there.Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:43.
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The conversion routines don't give a damn about BFF/TFF (what has the temporal order got to do with it?) - they only need to know if the clip is interlaced or not.
Just thought I'd clear that up, even if it only goes to illustrate scoob's point:
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I'm with you, Gavino. Sometimes I'm overly cautious -- especially when I feel I'm not so sure what I'm doing.
unclescoob, the jargon does stumble now and then. Thankfully the likes of Gavino, jagabo, et al, are around to catch me making a boo-boo (they always do that!). But I'd rather be corrected than merrily keep making a fool of myself .Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:44.
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I don't own any pay solutions. But I've seen videos that I just can't encode without blocking, encoded in a pristine manner using things I can't afford.
If you haven't seen any differences, then you're probably not pushing the encoders that hard.
HD home movies, downconverted to pin-sharp interlaced SD, are very difficult to encode. 25Mbps DV is fine, but 8-9Mbps MPEG-2 can struggle. Depends on how much movement, noise and detail there is.
Cheers,
David. -
In the process of learning this crazy process, I've made some real boo-boo's ! No doubt, I'll make more.
Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:44.
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Ok folks, here it is as promised. Sorry it took a while. Attached are two dark scene clip samples from my previous example earlier in this thread: The unfiltered clip and the filtered clip.
Notice how dirty the unfiltered clip is. The filtered clip looks alot better, however there is still some garbage floating around that I cannot get rid of for the life of me. Here is the script I used:
Code:Import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\FixChromaBleeding.avs") Import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\TemporalDegrain.avs") MPEG2Source("yaddayadda.d2v", cpu=3) TFM("yaddayadda.d2v", cpu=3") TDecimate(mode=1) Tweak(hue=0.0, sat=0.93) FixChromaBleeding() TemporalDegrain() TTempSmooth(maxr=5, lthresh=4, cthresh=3,interlaced=false) TTempSmooth(maxr=5, lthresh=4, cthresh=3,interlaced=false)
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The problem is that the noise has the same amplitude as some of the detail. If you use enough noise filtering to remove the noise you remove the detail too.
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So considering that fact, how would you rate my filtered result?
By the way, is that just regular analog VHS noise, or does it look like a bad transfer to you? Or bad encoding, perhaps? -
It depends on whether you'd like to have less noise and loss of detail, or more noise and retain more detail. MCTD at high (plus enhance=true) removes most the noise (enhance=true adds a little grain to reduce posterization artifacts) but removes some of the details -- the black lines in the blue blanket, for example.
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Interesting source. I've seen worse, but it has several problems. My PC is busy with another project right now, but will try a few things later this morning.
Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:44.
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thanks Sanlyn.
Jagabo, I wouldn't mind keeping the details and leaving some grain (which is "healthy" for video, anyway). Am I at least somewhat on track with my filtered result?
MCTemporalDenoise is good, but I notice it causes TONS of banding in dark areas (even at low settings with enhance=true, and deband activated) -
I'll check out your sample when I get home from work (not allowed to here).
Thanks.
Sanlyn, still waiting on ya, buddy.
Thanks. -
Pretty good work, jagabo. I had some slight banding from TemporalDegrain in a couple of scenes. Fixed that, but theer are level and edge ghost issues (the edge ghosts are in the source, not in the plugins). Haven't figured out the edge issue yet, the only really nice ghost filter I've found is in TMPGEnc Plus. Working on it . . .
Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:44.
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I didn't bother with anything but IVTC and MCTD. And I didn't fine tune anything beyond:
McTemporalDenoise(settings="high", stabilize=true, deblock=false, sharp=false, enhance=true)
As I mentioned earlier, the black lines in the dark blanket have disappeared.
The source (with gamma stretch to make the blanket more visible):
After MCTD (also with gamma stretch):
Last edited by jagabo; 2nd Apr 2012 at 13:02.
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Got the banding licked, finally. But that green edge in the source.....What a problem! I'll run off a copy in a bit and see how it flies.
Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:45.
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Wait, Sanlyn...green edge on the source?? Where?? You're not talking about his shoulder are you?
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I'm talking about the green big-mouthed blob. I forget what it's called.
Your results: okay, but one problem: TemporalDegrain didn't "cause" the artifact pattern you referred to. It just didn't clean it. Wasn't designed for that; it's not grain.
Running a final AVI now. You'll love this; the combo of MCTD and NeatVideo gave the best results. Slow as hell. Back in a just a bit.Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:45.
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jagabo's looks pretty good to me. Can't go by the screencap, I think it's "enhanced" to show some midtone (gamma) effects.
I'm trying to get up two versions, one with NeatVideo, one without. Gotta stop now and get dinner ready for the wife. Back later.Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:45.
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Running MCTD, I get pretty much the same thing jagabo did. This video looks the same, no matter what you run, within reason. The longer you work on it, the more all vfersions just look the same. Where did this video come fom, anyway? It's in worse shape than the toon you submitted some time back. Was this recorded to VHS? To DVD on a recorder? The grunge looks like compression artifacts - which means you have to either live with some grain, or live with some banding effects (the grain actually covers some banding in the source. Cut all the grain, you'll see it). You can smooth the heck out of it, but there won't be much left if you do.
Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:45.
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The noise looks to me like an off air recording from a weak signal. And something else:
The reason this video is particularly difficult is that the vertical line noise doesn't vary from frame to frame. So temporal filters won't get rid of it. Sixteen frames averaged together:
You need a strong spacial filter to get rid of the vertical lines. But that means you will lose details with similar amplitude.Last edited by jagabo; 2nd Apr 2012 at 20:32.
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Odd, the more noise you remove the more you see the damage, however it happened. Not the first time I've seen this effect, though. I'll post some results later tonight, if just to demonstrate that various smoothers and cleaners get the same results with this particular clip.
Last edited by sanlyn; 23rd Mar 2014 at 12:45.
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Believe it or not, to answer your question on the source: The source is from the official, retail DVD set from the Time-Life series. Sad how studios don't bother with decent transfers. I own tapes of these episodes (copies from a guy who taped them off cable tv). I'm almost willing to work with those and I'm starting to think I'll have better looking results! Is there any way deals can be worked out with these studios to obtain TAPE copies of their masters instead of transfering to DVD?
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