What is the best way to treat Telecine before Temporal Smoothing?

[unclescoob]

Ok, got it. Thanks.

[unclescoob]

Update on MCTemporalDenoise:

Ok, so I loaded the function into my script (copied and pasted from here { to here }.

So all the filters do load, but of course do not touch my video because I have not actually called McTemporalDenoise as of yet.

My next line is MCTemporalDenoise(settings="high"), but I get the following error (specifically):

Script Error: There is no function named fft3dfilter"

Any suggestions?

[manono]

Script Error: There is no function named fft3dfilter"

Any suggestions?

You might also find this page helpful:

http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/MCTemporalDenoise

Earlier I linked to that page not only because it explained the settings for MCTemporalDenoise, but mainly because it showed the other required DLLs. One of which is the FFT3DFilter.dll. But you rejected the suggestion as not helpful at all. We'll assume you got the fftw3.dll where it's supposed to go by now. What about the FFT3DFilter.dll? Is it in the plugins folder? If not, put it there. If it is but you still get the error message, then use a LoadPlugin line in your script to explicitely load it. Maybe something like:

LoadPlugin("C:\Path\To\FFT3DFilter.dll")

[unclescoob]

finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[unclescoob]

Everyone, thanks a bunch!!! Manono and Sanlyn, thank you both especially.

[sanlyn]

finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whew! And congrats for sticking with it, scoob. You know what they say about avisynth: if at first you don't succeed, somewhere around the 47th try it oughtta work .

[unclescoob]

Thanks Sanlyn. Now we're gonna start cookin'. BTW, I tested the high settings on my toon. To be honest, it looks alot like NeatVideo!

[unclescoob]

Ok, just one question. Now I'm just trying to import MCTemporal, but system says "cannot import". Only doing it this way to avoid the whole lengthy script. I'm doing it this way:

import("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\MCTemporalDenoise.avs")

I have the avs autoload script saved in my plugins folder. Anything missing?

[poisondeathray]

if it's autoloading, it should be .avsi, not .avs

If you use import, make sure you spell it correctly (either .avs or .avsi) , or rename the extension to match

[unclescoob]

Did it. Still can't open it.

BTW - am I supposed to add (x86) in my string name after Program Files?

[poisondeathray]

Did it. Still can't open it.

BTW - am I supposed to add (x86) in my string name after Program Files?

You don't "add" anything.

If that's the correct directory it should already say C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins in windows explorer . You copy & paste where the directory path is . Unless you have it in the wrong directory ?

Download the .avsi again an place it in the plugins folder, it should autoload (no need to import(), or copy a script)

http://latoninf.free.fr/d9/MCTD/MCTemporalDenoise.v1.4.20.avsi

Notice the extension is "avsi", not "avs" . If you rename it to .avs, then you have to manually use Import()

[jagabo]

\Program Files (x86)\ is where 32 bit programs go in 64 bit Windows. In 32 bit Windows it's just \Program Files\.

[poisondeathray]

ahhh he's on 32bit OS ? I missed that. Explains everything

You shouldn't even have a Program Files (x86) folder. Just dump the .avsi in to the standard avisynth 2.5\plugins folder. Problem solved

[unclescoob]

Done. I just figured out now I just have to call it in my script and that's that. Works like a charm. Don't even need to import anything.

Thanks again.

[jagabo]

Done. I just figured out now I just have to call it in my script and that's that. Works like a charm. Don't even need to import anything.

You were told that at least 5 times in this thread:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/343806-What-is-the-best-way-to-treat-Telecine-befor...=1#post2143253
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/343806-What-is-the-best-way-to-treat-Telecine-befor...=1#post2143256
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/343806-What-is-the-best-way-to-treat-Telecine-befor...=1#post2143788
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/343806-What-is-the-best-way-to-treat-Telecine-befor...=1#post2144298
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/343806-What-is-the-best-way-to-treat-Telecine-befor...=1#post2144300

[unclescoob]

The thread advised me to IMPORT it in my script and THEN call it. I don't even have to import it. I just type MCTemporalDenoise() and it's done.

Again, thanks.

By the way, this filter seems like it has alot of potential. Took about 18 hours to encode a really noisy 30 minute episode at high settings with some TTEmpSmooth added at the end of the script (as sanlyn did to my sample). I have to learn this filter's ins and outs. The "very high" settings kills ALOT of fine detail (although I thought MVtools and/or Masking prevents that, but ok) and still does not kill dancing grain in the background, particularly dark backgrounds. Also, random and brief small blockyness appears sporadically. And it's not the encoding because with my own script, I did not see this.

My humble script of TTempsmooth stacked with very small settings in Temporal cleaner, then shipped to NeatVideo to take care of the rest seems to work just as good, even better perhaps (so long as NV is trained to clean the dirt left over after processing with Avisynth). But I'm sure I can tweak MCTEmporal to work fine, like I said. Just letting you guys know what my first encounter with this filter was. I'll post samples tonight.

[jagabo]

The thread advised me to IMPORT it in my script and THEN call it.

As you were told earlier:

If you change the extension from AVS to AVSI, and put it in your plugins folder the script will be imported automatically any time you use any AVS script.

Or as jagabo suggests, just change .avs to .avsi and forget the import.

That's why you no longer have to explicitly import the function.

[2Bdecided]

David, would you like to make some money? I'd like to pay you one thousand dollars per episode you work on for me.

Oh Scoob, I'd love to help, but I'm not taking a pay cut - even for you.

Cheers,
David.

[unclescoob]

David sweety, you're just crazy about me and you know it!

[unclescoob]

Jagabo...you got me, ok?? GEEZ! you want a kiss?

[jagabo]

I wanted to make absolutely sure you understood that the reason you didn't have to explicitly import the filter was because you it was in your plugins folder and named .AVSI.

[unclescoob]

Well, I got it now.

Just one question about this filter (for you, or those who work extensively with it)....does MCTemporal just "know" how to adjust it's arguments based on the setting you choose, or is it still advisable to change settings if needed? For example, I notice that crop and add borders are in the arguments. Does it just "know" I have a 480/720 resolution or do I have to adjust that myself? I'm gonna keep reading on this filter more, but I want to hear about other experiences with it.

Thanks.

[poisondeathray]

Does it just "know" I have a 480/720 resolution or do I have to adjust that myself?

You usually don't have to adjust anything because of resolution

The exceptions are when the frame size isn't mod4 (evenly divisible by 4) - for example, maybe you cropped something. Some of the filters in MCTD require mod4 compliance

720x480 is fine because 720 is evenly divisible by 4, and 480 is as well

[unclescoob]

In terms of denoising, this filter's results look alot like NeatVideo's results. It has that smooth, clean look, and doesn't blur nor cause ghosting. Keeping in mind that Neat's temporal cleaning is motion compensated, except I doubt it's as strong as MC. But at strong settings, I notice that MCTemporal kills small details like crazy AND causes slight ghosting (but not so bad) At low settings, it doesn't denoise properly for really dirty clips with alot of dancing grain. Do you guys usually combine MC with other denoisers, such as TTempSmooth or Temporal Cleaner? If so, do you usually place these before or after the MC script? Can any other denoiser be incorporated into the script to suit individual needs?

PS - guys not I'm going to do ALOT of extensive experimenting with this filter and find this stuff out on my own. i'm not going to start asking three million and one questions about it's capabilities here, when I now have the opportunity to try it out on my own. But I do find this filter very interesting and peculiar, and would like feedback from others who really dabble with it on a regular basis. Just so I can have an idea of what to expect and learn.

Thanks again

[sanlyn]

Okay, pandors, here goes:

MCTemporalDenoise works best for me at default settings, but now and then I find a piece of crap that needs special settings with MCTD. Be careful about modifying MCTD: some of those re-sets can turn a cleaning operation from 1 hour into 2 days. Seldom have to do that, though, it's rare to need any changes. The only way to understand those detail settings is to read the documentation in the AVSI (there's plenty of that in the comments section of the .avsi text). Caution: if you don't know what any of those settings mean (and at this point you very likely will not), leave 'em alone for now. You have to look through all the documentation for all the plugins and other functions MCTD calls. Every damn one of 'em. Will take you the better part of a week just to read it all. If you don't take the trouble, none of the comments will make any sense at all and you'll be climbing up the walls and making posts in big bold colored letters here with exclamation points flying all over the place, not to mention losing sleep, upsetting your stomach, and going into terminal hissy fit. At this stage take it easy and just use it as-is. You'll run across other scripts and settings in the course of time. For the time being, I'd stick with the four or five default settings. MCDT almost always works best with those defaults anyway. I've changed a few of them and wished I hadn't, or at least found it was a waste of time. The defaults have been tweaked over time to work well together. And you can always touch up with NeatVideo.

I use MCTD a lot on VHS video at "low" or "medium", then touch up with NeatVideo. NeatVideo can be run in an avs script, but everyone complains about it (besides being really slow that way, no one knows why). NV is always better used by itself. Besides, setting it up in a script is a pain.

MCTD and NeatVideo are similar in many ways, but you'll soon notice that they don't have exactly the same effects. NeatVideo holds detail better, but only if you have a good noise sample. MCTD is better at anti-aliasing, block noise, and chroma cleaning, among other things. NeatVideo is better at "little" stuff like mosquito noise and the crap MCTD leaves behind. On really grungy video, you'll find a use for both filters. With a really nasty clip you have to fiddle with both. I'll play devil's advocate here and confess that for most VHS I use NV most of the time, but sometimes MCDT can better it. You never know; depends on the clip. It doesn't take long to get a handle on what kinds of problems each filter works best with. Generally I'd say MCTD is best to start with on toons. NeatVideo is best with that fuzzy blurry tape noise IMHO. But as I say, it all depends on the clip and the phase of the Moon, and what kind of mood you're in .

At settings higher than Medium, MCTD runs about the same speed as NeatVideo and sometimes slower. If you think both are slow, try TemporalDegrain sometime at default. Best to let the latter run while you have something else to do.

I don't see MCTD creating ghosts. But with some grungy clips, it's possible. I've just never seen it.

[unclescoob]

For the time being, I'd stick with the four or five default settings. MCDT almost always works best with those defaults anyway.
I use MCTD a lot on VHS video at "low" or "medium", then touch up with NeatVideo. NeatVideo can be run in an avs script, but everyone complains about it (besides being really slow that way, no one knows why). NV is always better used by itself. Besides, setting it up in a script is a pain.

I will definitely take your advice on that. I also don't see any reason to touch any of those arguments. After all, that's why the script is so popular to begin with, no? Because it does what it needs to do for you.

NeatVideo holds detail better

So MCTemporal kills your details regardless of settings?

[unclescoob]

Okay, pandors, here goes:

NeatVideo is better at "little" stuff like mosquito noise and the crap MCTD leaves behind.

But MCTDN cleans mosquito noise with edgeclean=true. Remember, you ran it on my cartoon and it did really well with edge noise. I also ran that portion of your script and got good results on my edges.

Also, on my cartoon you said you never ran NV after MCTDN. You actually stacked TTempSmooth on that really grainy/flickery scene. Question about that, btw: Is there any specific reason why you ran TTempSmooth twice at equal settings, instead of running it once with double the setting?

[sanlyn]

I didn't say it "kills" detail. Many people think both filters do that, but it depends on how they're used. Abused and.or overused, either of them will make any video look like mush.

All denoisers affect detail to some degree. How could they remove noise yet leave every spec unchanged? Much of what we think is "detail", especially with banged-up grainy VHS, is really noise. That's true even of film; look closely at the screen down at your multiplex; film has grain. Removing 100% of it will give you a very plastic looking movie -- with less "detail".

[sanlyn]

[QUOTE=unclescoob;2144572]

But MCTDN cleans mosquito noise with edgeclean=true. Remember, you ran it on my cartoon and it did really well with edge noise. I also ran that portion of your script and got good results on my edges.

edgclean=true is used to smooth jaggies. Aliasing and mosquito noise are two different problems. It was the temporal smoothers that got the mosquitos, and I used one of them twice. The edgeclean param just help prevent oversharpening artifacts.
Mosquito noise: http://i.cmpnet.com/videsignline/2006/02/algolith-fig2.jpg
I'd say DehaloAlpha helped as well.

[2Bdecided]

There are some threads about Dancing Grain over at doom9. The trick is to prevent the motion compensation from trying to following the grain.

e.g.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=132310&highlight=dancing+grain


However, for some "bad" sources I prefer RemoveDirtMC and MVDegrain(Multi) as used in VideoFred's film restoration script. This is the part I use (just crudely hacked out)...

denoising_strength= 900  #denoising level of second denoiser: MVDegrainMulti() 
denoising_frames= 3  #number of frames for averaging (forwards and backwards) 3 is a good start value
block_size= 16  #block size of MVDegrainMulti()
block_size_v= 16
block_over= 8  #block overlapping of MVDegrainMulti()

Import("03_RemoveDirtMC.avs")


#CLEANING/PRESHARPENING/RESIZING
#..........................................................................................................................................


#CLEANING PARAMETERS
#--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dirt_blur= 0.1 # some blur before cleaning to avoid pixel artifacts
dirt_strength=40 # set this lower for clean films.


#DENOISING PARAMETERS
#----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

denoising_strength= 900  #denoising level of second denoiser: MVDegrainMulti() 
denoising_frames= 3  #number of frames for averaging (forwards and backwards) 3 is a good start value
block_size= 16  #block size of MVDegrainMulti()
block_size_v= 16
block_over= 8  #block overlapping of MVDegrainMulti()


# FOUR STEP SHARPENING PARAMETERS
#--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

USM_sharp_ness1= 120   USM_radi_us1= 3  #first sharpening (UnsharpMask) after cleaning with removedirtMC()

USM_sharp_ness2= 80    USM_radi_us2=2   #second harpening (UnsharpMask) after cleaning with removedirtMC()

USM_sharp_ness3= 70    USM_radi_us3=1   #third sharpening (UnsharpMask) after degraining with MVDegrainMulti()


last_sharp= 0.4 #final sharpening step after interpolation

last_blur= 0.2 #this smooths out the heavy sharpening effects


stab2=last

noise_baseclip=stab2.blur(dirt_blur)

cleaned= RemoveDirtMC(noise_baseclip,dirt_strength)


#DEGRAINING/SHARPENING
#...................................................................................................................................................................

vectors= cleaned.MVAnalyseMulti(refframes=denoising_frames, pel=2, blksize=block_size, blksizev= block_size_v, overlap=block_over, idx=1)
denoised= cleaned.MVDegrainMulti(vectors, thSAD=denoising_strength, SadMode=1, idx=2).unsharpmask(USM_sharp_ness3,USM_radi_us3,0)

return denoised

Cheers,
David.