Need a DVD 30 minutes after the game?

[handyguy]

Camera with a dvd recorder, just record to disk & then you can use it after you finalize it in a few minutes.

[ejolson]

I'm pretty sure we are lining out of the AUX via Composite +Y/C. External DVD recorders can see the signal, but the Pinnacle box couldn't. I'll try the Component today. There is no S-video out from the Tricaster.

When AUX is set to Composite + Y/C the plug labeled Y is composite and the plugs labeled Pb and Pr become the Y/C signal for S-Video. You need a cable that has an S-Video mini-DIN connector on one end and two BNC plugs on the other.

[filmboss80]

Lolz. Well, all I can do is try to get a DVD that has some semblance of universal-ity out. I'll forward any disgruntled customers' emails to my boss.

No! Do not knowingly put out a bad product for paying customers. If they get burned one time, they will never be repeat customers. Just because your boss is an ignoramus does not grant you license to make matters worse.

If the event were 60 min. or less, the 30 minute DVD delivery idea could work, as you could feed a standard-def output to a standalone DVD-recorder, then after finalizing the disc, feed it into a 10-to-1 DVD duplicator. But since DVD Recording decks record constant bitrate, usually with PCM audo (I might be wrong about the audio format these days), your 150 min. event would require half resolution or unacceptably low bitrate. And there are scores of other reasons why it just wouldn't work for you (many of which have been mentioned by others here).

Therefore, I offer an alternative solution that can take advantage of impulse-buying within 30 minutes of the event, while delivering a final product of good quality, so that everyone wins.

Set up a booth at the venue and put up a sign that says something like, "Your event delivered on DVD to your home this week." Link a laptop to an internet feed, and if your business accepts credit cards, use a virtual terminal to take purchases for the DVDs, which will be mailed out to customers within a week. If your business is not set up for credit cards, you can set up an account with PayPal (which will now accept credit and debit cards without customers needing a PayPal account) and use it's virtual terminal function to process payments.

After the event, go and master some good looking DVDs, then ship them out to the paying customers. Whatever you do, don't give customers something that will cause them grief. Take a stand with your boss on this one.

EDIT: As you are in BC, you would need to sign up with PayPal Canada.

[Telemov]

I meant "deliver a DVD that has been authored properly in post, mastered properly offsite (or copied in our towers), and sold as a standard NTSC 16:9 DVD". No dual layer, no BD, just a regular old DVD. If customers have a problem, we would exchange them. That seems to be the best way to go.

We are considering setting up a booth and taking orders. That would give me some time to put them together. Unfortunately, he just said he doesn't want me spending a week authoring DVDs of 42 games. I'm baffled. How else am I supposed to do this? Somebody has to author them. He also said we need a solution by tomorrow, as we have a smaller-scale tournament that will be the test run for this big upcoming tournament. News to me. Sigh.

Is there not a DVD recorder that can record longer programs in real time?


I have considered one of those DVD camcorders. Do they still exist?

[robjv1]

Well, DVD recorders CAN record longer programs in real time just fine, but you have to throw enough bitrate at the recordings. I assume you're recording fast moving action, so you're going to need a fair amount of bitrate (I'd guess 5 Mbps for the video as an absolute minimum) to make it look good and since 4:3 (in 352 x 480 mode) is not an option, as far as DVD recorders go, you have no choice but DL. On an SL disc at this program length and a 720 x 480 resolution, you're in between 3 and 4Mbps at best with most recorders. I just don't think there is much hope for an SL disc for dynamic footage. I think it'd be be slightly cheaper (and easier for you) just to record each game over two SL discs then it would be to go DL. Then you can be duplicating the first disc while the second is recording and cut down on your processing time, although that may not be a substantial amount of time in your case.

DVD recorders usually record Stereo, two-channel channel audio in AC-3 format -- typically 256k or 384k on some decks. PCM recording is usually reserved for the 1 hr mode, although most recorders will give you the option to choose between PCM and AC3 for that particular mode. For video, most use VBR on capture, with CBR in some modes -- some older recorders use a hybrid between the two (Lite On LVW-5005 jumps to mind).

[ejolson]

Is there not a DVD recorder that can record longer programs in real time?

You want a DVD recorder with 720x480 widescreen LSP or ESP modes at 2.5 and 3 hours respectively. The increased bitrate, resolution and aspect ratio would be a noticable improvement to 352x480 fullscreen 4 hour LP mode that you are currently using. I believe some Sony and Panasonic DVD recorders have these additional recording modes. I can not recommend a particular model.

I would use a computer. As people have varying levels of comfort with computers it is difficult recommend what exact hardware and software. I would be most comfortable using the Canopus ADVC110 with locked audio and Linux. The recording script

dvgrab -format raw -noavc -nostop -s0 - |
        ffmpeg -f dv -i - -target ntsc-dvd \
        -qmin 5 -b 3700000 -ab 192000 -y -aspect 16:9 -y file1.mpg

creates a widescreen 4mbps DVD compliant mpeg2 file in real time. When the show is done, the video file1.mpg can be mastered and burned to DVD using an xml template that was made ahead of time with the commands

dvdauthor -o final -x dvd.xml
growisofs -dvd-compat -dvd-video -Z/dev/dvd final/

Unless you have experience with Linux, this is probably not the method for you. However, this method still serves as an example of how a computer could be used to create a DVD about 10 minutes after the show is over.

[Telemov]

So far the best quality has come from archived stream files saved on the Tricaster. They're 1280kbps (I think?) 720p f4v files. Takes 60 minutes to convert/burn to DVD. Not sure how much better it will get.

I got a Dazzle capture card working on an external PC, but the quality seems really poor, even at the best settings.

I'm not familiar with Linux at all, btw.

[nic2k4]

Is there not a DVD recorder that can record longer programs in real time?

I have considered one of those DVD camcorders. Do they still exist?

The best quality possible with a DVD recorder gives you 1 hour at 720X480 with over 9000kbps. Increasing the record time means losing on the resolution and/or bitrate i.e. reduced quality. DVD camcorders are a bad choice, their small media can only record for 1/2 an hour (1 hour with dual layer discs). Using a dual layer capable recorder would let you record 2 hours at the best quality, but you'd still be 1/2 an hour short of 150 minutes; would that be Ok?

Another solution would be to use 3 recorders through a video distribution amplifier and fire them off in sequence. You'd start them recording at the same time, but leave 2 on pause, then when the first disc gets near full (say 45 minutes), start the next one and stop the first one (don't forget to finalize)... There would be a small overlap that could quickly be corrected later. Only issue, someone has to mind the recorders (2 alarm clocks might be a good idea).

I would use DVDdecrypter to rip the discs to the PC. The choice software for editing would be TDA, as it's able to directly edit DVD video (remove the overlap and set some chapter points) and it doesn't re-encode DVD compliant video i.e. it's very fast at rendering the final product. I would forget about creating a menu, just render the DVD with no menu; the video would start playing as soon as the disc is inserted in the player.

Next, I would run the output through Nero Recode (part of the Nero Multimedia Suite) to shrink the DVD so it fits a single layer disc (making sure to check off both boxes on the process page to preserve the quality) and output to folder. Last, use Nero Burning ROM to burn the discs; it's able to write to multiple burners at once (works better when all the burners are the same). You should be able to install 4 burners in a PC and write 4 discs in one go (and use DVD-R discs just in case you have one of those buyers with a 10 year old player).

There are some caveats; I'm not sure how TDA will handle 150 minutes of video in high quality, that would mean outputting a disc that exceeds a dual layer disc size; it might choke. You would have to use a work around. Also, you would need a modern PC (think i7 or Phenom x6) with 2 HDD (always save to a separate drive when rendering or shrinking; cuts the transfer times in half). The best recording option would have to be through component out or at least S-video, to minimize video noise and wasted bitrate. Unfortunately, DVD recorders are getting hard to find at the consumer level; the only one I know to record component was the Philips 985. Maybe you can find something in professional grade.

The work around would be to rip, render and shrink the first 2 recordings (you have at least 30 minutes to work on that while the last disc is recording), then input the result in TDA along with the last recording. You can tweak the output size in Recode so that the size of the first 2 discs after shrinking is just under the difference of 8.5GB and the size of the last recording (you need to find that in advance i.e. try it to get an idea). This is to maximize the final quality, since some of the video would be shrunk twice.

So from the end of the game (remember you had 30 minutes to work on the first 2 recordings), you would take about 5 minutes to rip the last recording, less than 15 to import it, trim the overlap and render in TDA. Another 15 to import and shrink in Recode (don't forget to set it to shrink to 4.7GB). Count 13 minutes to burn a DVD at 8x (I wouldn't burn faster than that if you don't want too many returns). That's over your time limit, but not by much. You'd have to try it to get a definite idea, just record something once with your recorder and use it 3 times to simulate the process. You can download all that software and try it a few days.

[ejolson]

So far the best quality has come from archived stream files saved on the Tricaster. They're 1280kbps (I think?) 720p f4v files. Takes 60 minutes to convert/burn to DVD. Not sure how much better it will get.

It is amusing that a heavily-compressed 1280kbps f4v file designed for 720p web streaming looks better when converted to DVD than any of the solutions you've tried so far. Is it possible that 30p looks better than 30i for a 4000kbps DVD?

For blu-ray I would set the Tricaster to record H264 at 20mbps and check if Encore can use the resulting files to master a BD-R without transcoding.

[nic2k4]

Just realized this can be streamlined to save a bit of time, beside shrinking twice is not a good plan. Also, you only need 2 recorders.

1- Record 50 minutes per disc
2- Rip the first disc with decrypter
3- Shrink it with recode set for 1480Mb
4- Import it in TDA and trim the end to match the beginning of the next disc
5- Repeat for the next disc, once all 3 disc are imported in TDA, you can render and the output should fit a single layer disc
6- Burn with Nero

You might save a little more time if you load the recording directly into Recode and skip the ripping.

[Telemov]

Nic, that sounds like it would be a great product, but it requires a lot of extra software and equipment that we don't have. I also need something that's fairly "drag & drop" so any of my crew could record and finalize while focusing on the live production. I really do appreciate your advice, though. I'll try that option with two recorders and see how it turns out, but I'm wondering if just converting the hd files from the Tricaster might be faster.

A live mpeg capture dropped into a pre-authored menu template would be ideal, but as I've discovered, the Pinnacle capture doesn't look very good. And I haven't had a chance to test burn times of a 150-minute session.

So far, it really looks like burning our recorded f4v stream archive through a "F4V to DVD" program is the fastest/easiest/best quality solution. Unless I can find a good standalone DVD recorder capable of better quality.

[usually_quiet]

I have an older Panasonic DVD recorder and I'm familiar with its recording features. Panasonic DVD recorders are able to set a custom bitrate using their flexible recording mode which will fit 2 1/2 hours of 720x480 video, plus AC3 audio on one single layer disc. They record from composite or S-Video but not component. They use real-time VBR encoding. Flexible recording mode is only available when using timed recording. It isn't available using the record button. You would need to set up the timers with a start time and end time for the event with a couple of minutes extra on either end. (jjeff is our resident Panasonic expert. PM him if you want to double-check these features.)

FR mode recordings could look better than 4000kbps CBR conversion from DV performed on-the-fly with ffmpeg, but may not look as good as your re-encodes from 720p. Here is a Canadian source for one that can record NTSC video from line inputs as NTSC video even though it is an international model http://www.110220volts.ca/DMR-ES18.html Here is a link for a N. American model from last year: http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B004R3WW8E/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d0_g23_i1?pf_rd_m=A3DWYI...pf_rd_i=915398

You would have to set the widescreen flag after the fact. Panasonic DVD recorders don't set it for line-in NTSC recordings. You would copy the DVD to your hard drive, and use VOB2MPG to join and the VOBs into one .mpg and import into Encore. I don't use Encore but it may be able to overrride the existing aspect ratio by setting the widescreen flag during authoring. You should also set up Encore not to re-encode DVD compliant video and audio. After authoring, burn a disc for duplication.

It is still hard for me to say whether this will all be possible within the allotted time.

[nic2k4]

As I said, putting 150 minutes of video to DVD is going to take a compromise on the bitrate and/or resolution. This is a limitation of the format and can't be changed whether you're using a recorder or a capture card in a PC.

A good example to help you see this is a Hollywood movie on DVD. Any 2 hour long movie is going to require over 7000Mb of data on a disc i.e. a dual layer disc (that's video at 720x480 with a bitrate over 9000Kbps); that's to get the best quality product. Any recorder that writes to a single layer disc can only hope to achieve 1 hour at a similar quality. To get more recording time, most will just lower the resolution; to get 2 hours they reduce the resolution to 352x480. The more the resolution goes down the more the picture gets blocky; at 8 hours things are at their worse, resolution is down to 176x240 and bitrate may be reduced to 5000Kbps.

When you shrink a movie with Recode, it does some clever calculations to increase the compression and lower the sample rate of the video (not quite the same as changing the resolution and bitrate). Obviously this will also lower the quality, but Recode is very good at it and can produce acceptable results with a high quality source.

To get the best quality possible, you'd want to encode directly off a capture card at the proper bitrate (you can calculate that). You would get a DVD ready MPEG2 file as soon as you stop recording, need 15 minutes to run it through DVD authoring software (TDA with no menu) and 13, to burn a disc. Only issue, capture cards can be glitchy and may occasionally mess up a recording.

You could probably speed up the Tricaster conversions with a new core i7 PC, but it would still take more than 30 minutes.

At least you can explain to your boss why 30 minutes is not enough to get quality results, unless he's willing to spend money.

[ejolson]

So far, it really looks like burning our recorded f4v stream archive through a "F4V to DVD" program is the fastest/easiest/best quality solution. Unless I can find a good standalone DVD recorder capable of better quality.

If you want to go this route, I would recommend recording standard definition 50mbps mpeg2 I-frame on the Tricaster because standard definition will transcode about 3x faster than 720p AVC when mastering the DVD. Break the event up into about 8 files and you should be able to transcode them all in parallel in about 5 minutes.

[usually_quiet]

So far, it really looks like burning our recorded f4v stream archive through a "F4V to DVD" program is the fastest/easiest/best quality solution. Unless I can find a good standalone DVD recorder capable of better quality.

If you want to go this route, I would recommend recording standard definition 50mbps mpeg2 I-frame on the Tricaster because standard definition will transcode about 3x faster than 720p AVC when mastering the DVD. Break the event up into about 8 files and you should be able to transcode them all in parallel in about 5 minutes.

This will require using multiple computers to perform the transcoding. Not many personal computers would be capable of simultaneously transcoding 8 files in 5 minutes time.

[Cornucopia]

Having done this successfully before (a VERY similar scenario), here's what I recommend:

1. Get 2 Industrial DVD Recorders. (I recommend the out-of-stock Pioneer PRV-V9000 series or the PRV-LX series) They have Full 720x480 with SinglePass VBR (at up to 32 BR levels), and include AC-3 audio. This will maximize the available Video bitrate for your program. Also, I believe it has settable AR flag.
2. If you go with the PRV-LX series, you can have your own CG artist create custom pre-built menus (ahead of time, of course). Otherwise, you're stuck with ripping+re-authoring, which takes longer, or living with the stock menus...
3. Record ONLY the 1st 1/2 on disc 1 and the 2nd 1/2 on disc 2 (2 DVRs is both for semi-backup and for sequential recording). This would give you max ~90 minutes for a 3-hour game (longer that what you gave as example). 90 minutes of VBR on an SL disc (yes, you should only use SL discs for best compatibility) would give you ~6Mbps AVG (it's VBR remember) video + 256 or 384kbps AC3 audio. This should be plenty to show your game, even if it's fast-paced - as long as your cameras are high-quality/low-noise and your camerapersons are seasoned sports shooters who know how to follow the action without too much shake.
4. Take an HD output from your Tricaster to save for future use (post-authored BD, youtube, etc) and send an SD output (via the Y/C ->Svideo) to the DVD recorders (you'll need a DA box to have same signal sent to both recorders). This will give you the BEST input quality that those (or any other) recorders are capable of. Will make a difference in clarity (particularly the color).
5. If you go the PRV-LX series way, you can do nice quick top-n-tails editing along with the authoring.

All this should be able to get done pretty close to within the time period you were going for - but you WILL have to pay $$$ for the recorders (and wait for them to be shipped to you - if you can find them).

It's another example of the old adage: FAST-CHEAP-GOOD, pick 1 or 2 (you can't have all 3). In this instance, it's the fast & good at the expense of the cheap.

Tell your boss those are your options there, and if he/she balks on it, you can negotiate on the time allotment, which might give you some of those other options that have been suggested here (all decent, but not all necessarily optimal for the project).

Scott

[ejolson]

This will require using multiple computers to perform the transcoding. Not many personal computers would be capable of simultaneously transcoding 8 files in 5 minutes time.

My estimate was based on the following: One core of an AMD 2.8Ghz Athlon X2 can transcode 50mbps DV50 to mpeg2 at about 2x real time. These days computers are about twice as fast per core and have 8 cores. Thus, it should take 150/8/4=4.68 minutes if done in parallel on 8 cores. Necessary read speed from the hard disk would be 50MB/s, however, the sustained transfer speed of an external eSATA 7200rpm HD is about 100MB/s. Therefore, disk bandwidth should not be a problem either.

[jman98]

My estimate was based on the following: One core of an AMD 2.8Ghz Athlon X2 can transcode DV50 to mpeg2 at about 2x real time. These days computers are about twice as fast per core and have 8 cores.

And SOME cars are Ferraris, but that doesn't mean ALL cars are Ferraris. That's a pretty big (and expensive) assumption you're running on there.

[usually_quiet]

This will require using multiple computers to perform the transcoding. Not many personal computers would be capable of simultaneously transcoding 8 files in 5 minutes time.

My estimate was based on the following: One core of an AMD 2.8Ghz Athlon X2 can transcode 50mbps DV50 to mpeg2 at about 2x real time. These days computers are about twice as fast per core and have 8 cores. Thus, it should take 150/8/4=4.68 minutes if done in parallel on 8 cores. Necessary read speed from the hard disk would be 50MB/s, however, the sustained transfer speed of an external eSATA 7200rpm HD is about 100MB/s. Therefore, disk bandwidth should not be a problem either.

So you think it is likely that the OP has a computer with either an Intel i7-2600 series (or better) CPU with 4 physical cores (which provides 8 virtual ones via hyperthreading) or an AMD FX-8120 (or better) CPU with 8 physical cores. ...or if he doesn't that his boss will spring for one? I don't share your optimism.

[Telemov]

You guys rule. This doesn't seem as hopeless as I thought.

Cornucopia: staggering our recording on two recorders is something we have considered, but I have a hard enough time making sure the crew records to one recorder, let alone two. There's always a different crew in our booth, and the "hit record on the DVD recorder" person varies every game. I'm also pretty sure my boss wants everything on one disc.

I'll check the Tricaster to what option there are for recording Mpeg/MOV, but we are still having troubles getting the Tricaster to record the Pgm out without crashing. Might just be a setting, as we have not had it for very long and are still learning which configs work best. It does sound like there's a problem with our unit, and we are doing some beta tests with Newtek's assistance.

I found a Sony DVD recorder (RDR-GX7) that has adjustable bit rate, but I don't know if it maintains 16:9 auto flagging (is that the right terminology?) on recordings over 90 minutes.

Also, I know for sure that our computer is not that fast. I'm not at it right now, but can post the specs later.

I really do appreciate everyone's advice and expertise.

[ejolson]

I'll check the Tricaster to what option there are for recording Mpeg/MOV, but we are still having troubles getting the Tricaster to record the Pgm out without crashing.

Are you live-streaming the f4m file?

[usually_quiet]

You guys rule. This doesn't seem as hopeless as I thought.

Cornucopia: staggering our recording on two recorders is something we have considered, but I have a hard enough time making sure the crew records to one recorder, let alone two. There's always a different crew in our booth, and the "hit record on the DVD recorder" person varies every game. I'm also pretty sure my boss wants everything on one disc.

I'll check the Tricaster to what option there are for recording Mpeg/MOV, but we are still having troubles getting the Tricaster to record the Pgm out without crashing. Might just be a setting, as we have not had it for very long and are still learning which configs work best. It does sound like there's a problem with our unit, and we are doing some beta tests with Newtek's assistance.

I found a Sony DVD recorder (RDR-GX7) that has adjustable bit rate, but I don't know if it maintains 16:9 auto flagging (is that the right terminology?) on recordings over 90 minutes.

Also, I know for sure that our computer is not that fast. I'm not at it right now, but can post the specs later.

I really do appreciate everyone's advice and expertise.

DVD recorders with a digital tuner (ATSC/QAM) can detect the aspect ratio in the program information included in the broadcast, but there is nothing in NTSC analog video itself from a line input that distinguishes 4:3 from 16:9. Both are 720x480. The MPEG2 and DVD widescreen bits for line-in recordings has to be handled manually with a recorder setting, or corrected using computer.

I remember someone saying his PAL Pioneer recorder could be set up to record with the widescreen flags set, but I don't know the details. In addition, Pioneer has not made DVD recorders for a few years and their consumer models in good condition cost a small fortune, if you can find them.

[Telemov]

I'll check the Tricaster to what option there are for recording Mpeg/MOV, but we are still having troubles getting the Tricaster to record the Pgm out without crashing.

Are you live-streaming the f4m file?

We are streaming F4V. We could bump up our bitrate but have found the current settings (1200 or so) yield the least complaints from our viewers. We used to stream at 2040, which was just too much.

There really is no reason we can't record full res mpeg/MOV to the Tricaster, but it's just not working right now.

[ejolson]

We are streaming F4V. We could bump up our bitrate but have found the current settings (1200 or so) yield the least complaints from our viewers. We used to stream at 2040, which was just too much.

There really is no reason we can't record full res mpeg/MOV to the Tricaster, but it's just not working right now.

Encoding the F4V file can take a lot of processing power so the Tricaster may not be able to make an additional mpeg2 recording. Since you like the quality of the F4V to DVD conversion, there is also computer software that can transcode streaming video to a DVD compliant format in real time. I'm not sure how you would set up the networking for this.

[Telemov]

We are streaming F4V. We could bump up our bitrate but have found the current settings (1200 or so) yield the least complaints from our viewers. We used to stream at 2040, which was just too much.

There really is no reason we can't record full res mpeg/MOV to the Tricaster, but it's just not working right now.

Encoding the F4V file can take a lot of processing power so the Tricaster may not be able to make an additional mpeg2 recording. Since you like the quality of the F4V to DVD conversion, there is also computer software that can transcode streaming video to a DVD compliant format in real time. I'm not sure how you would set up the networking for this.

The TriCaster should be able to handle F4V encoding, while recording up to eight simultaneous video channels. It's a very powerful piece of hardware.

[ejolson]

The TriCaster should be able to handle F4V encoding, while recording up to eight simultaneous video channels. It's a very powerful piece of hardware.

Yes, it should! Sorry to hear about the crashes. It looks to me like the JVC DVM700U may already have the recording modes you need. Have you looked at Free Rate Recording Mode on page 51 and Prioritize 16:9 on page 61?

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/DVD/manual/DVM700%20INST.pdf

[Telemov]

A manual, eh? Hm.

You know, when I started this job, my crew told me we could only record in the three preset modes. Considering they've been doing things this way for years, I took their word for it that the JVC was set to the best mode.

I will try the free rate and 16:9 prioritize feature. Giggity. Thank you!!!