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  1. Member
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    Hi everyone:

    I work at an events centre that hosts several sporting events which are broadcast via the Tricaster 850 Extreme. Our program out is 720p.

    I'm looking for a way to provide DVDs to our teams within 30 minutes or less after each game. We have tried lining out to a couple different DVD recorders but the quality is absolute garbage. I'm thinking the best quality will only be achieved through a software workflow, such as taking the Mpeg from the Tricaster and dropping it into a basic DVD authoring program. Adobe Encore really seems to take a long time (4 hours or more) to burn a 150- minute DVD.

    Should I be looking for a better DVD recorder that can transcode/burn better quality, or the software option? I have PC and Mac, with CS5.5 and Final Cut.
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    Originally Posted by Telemov View Post

    I'm looking for a way to provide DVDs to our teams within 30 minutes or less after each game.
    This is not a realistic goal. The only way you could possibly do this is to record the video in real time during the game in a DVD compliant format and immediately start producing the DVD with no editing as soon as the game is over. 720p is not a "DVD compliant format".
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  3. Member yoda313's Avatar
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    An alternative t Jman98's suggestion is to go with a hauppauge hdpvr or similar unit if you have the ability to output component video. You could record in realtime to the hdpvr and capture as a 720p h264 file. Than you can burn the file to dvdr as soon as you finish recording it. It can record h264 in ts, m2ts or mp4 file extensions.

    The blackmagic intensity can also do this as can some other units.

    But this would not be a regular dvd you could play in a normal dvd player. It would be a high def video file. However if you recorded it as an mp4 file you could play it back in a xbox 360 or ps3 and of course any modestly powered computer (generally a dual core or better for high def video) (the ps3 can read h264 m2ts files but the xbox 360 can't, the 360 can read the mp4 files from the hdpvr - at least the last time I checked I believe it can).

    But jman98 is right if you want an actual dvd 720p won't work. You would have to be able to output 480p or 480i and record on the fly with simple menus or no menus so you could finalize the disc and duplicate it after the recording is finished.

    Edit - also depending on your actual output unit and recording unit you might be limited to letterbox recording (while in standard definition output mode) assuming this is a widescreen production. You'd have the black bars on it. Of course simply using a hdtvs zoom feature would easily correctly display the unit without the pillar bars (the vertical side bars you'd see are called pillar bars - of course if its 2.35:1 or wider you'll have the top and bottom bars - this is upon doing the zoom - if you had the time later to encode you could flag it to be widescreen not letterbox but only upon reauthoring if it was letterboxed during realtime recording).
    Last edited by yoda313; 12th Feb 2012 at 13:58.
    Donatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?
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    That's what I've been telling my boss. He wants GOOD FAST. It's been a long week.

    We can line out of the TriCaster at 480i via composite and component, though. I guess the Tricaster transcodes the footage on the fly before exporting.
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  5. Member yoda313's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by telemov
    We can line out of the TriCaster at 480i via composite and component
    That would be your best bet to a dvd recorder with composite - svideo if you have the option for best possible standard definition capture to the dvd recorder - again assuming the dvd recorder has svideo in some of the cheaper units don't have svideo in.

    Than you can get the finished unedited disc and make duplicates from that. A slicker edited version will have to wait for post production later. This way you could get at least the rough cut out on disc.
    Donatello - The Shredder? Michelangelo - Maybe all that hardware is for making coleslaw?
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  6. People capture and post HDTV programs within minutes of ending, with occasional quality issues. Do you have to convert to DVD, or would a quick-and-dirty 720p .mkv file be acceptable? Can you start editing the first part of each game while the last part is in progress? How many copies do you need? Decide which is more important, speed or quality, since you can't have both.
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  7. Member
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    Originally Posted by yoda313 View Post
    An alternative t Jman98's suggestion is to go with a hauppauge hdpvr or similar unit if you have the ability to output component video. You could record in realtime to the hdpvr and capture as a 720p h264 file. Than you can burn the file to dvdr as soon as you finish recording it. It can record h264 in ts, m2ts or mp4 file extensions.
    Admittedly I am reading something into the original post that was not explicitly stated, but such files are not DVD compliant although they could be burned to a DVD disc as a DVD disc can hold non-compliant video. But I've got a strong feeling that "only plays on a computer" is not going to be acceptable for this.
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  8. Yeah, I also think it has to be DVD compliant. I was at a wedding not too long ago where very soon after the ceremony there was a DVD available that even had minor editing done to it (cuts). It sure wasn't converted from 720p, but created as 480i. That's the only chance Telemov has for accomplishing this - if he can get a 480i video almost instantly.
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    Another issue is going to be the length of the program (150 minutes). Does it have to all be contained on a single disc? You might want to try a DVD recorder that can record on dual-layer discs and has a free-rate adjustable recording speed -- 150 minutes at 720x480 on a SL disc is not going to look good, I assume 352x480 is out of the question. Might make more sense as someone else mentioned to devise a workflow where you can start working on it as the game is still going.

    Edit: Oops read that wrong, the encoding/authoring time is 150 minutes. Still I suppose the event length could still be an issue as far as why your quality isn't very good on your recording. How long is each event?
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    It has to be set-top compliant for the general public. We have a big tournament coming up, and the parents of the teams buy a lot of DVDs.

    We are able to save an archive of our stream in 1280x720 F4V, and I have been able to burn a DVD from those F4Vs in 60 minutes on Freemake, and they look a LOT better than the DVDs recorded on the standalone recorders. I have suggested that the events centre buy a few hundred custom USB drives with the event/facility logo printed on them, and just provide data copies to everyone for $10. The USB drive could be a cool souvenir that could be re-used, the quality would be better, and people could burn their own set-top DVDs from the file if they wanted to.

    Nope. They want DVD. Argh.

    I have already tried the Pinnacle Movie box, which is supposed to capture to Studio in DV AVI or MPEG. Unfortunately, I couldnt' get it to work, and I tried two different units on two different computers. The capture preview was a mess of green noise. That was with the TriCaster exporting 480i 16x9 Composite out. Strangely, when I connected an external DVD recorder/monitor to that same output, it showed up fine, but the DVD that was recorded looks like garbage.

    I've considered the Hauppage, but I don't know if it would be much faster: we would still have to burn a DVD from the captured footage, rather than writing directly to disk. I've also looked at the Sony DVDirect as a standalone DVD recorder, but I'm beginning to think that these "precious memories" devices will ALL just record at the same quality, with just a few functions to distinguish them from others (ie: an LCD screen).

    Somebody else has suggested the dual-layer option, but I haven't really looked into it. I imagine we would need a different recorder? We currently have a JVC DVM700U and a newer Toshiba whose model number I don't know offhand.

    I am not against the idea of buying a dedicated external recording/DVD burning computer with an HD-SDI capture card, if anybody has any experience/insight on that subject.
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  11. Member
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    Hauppauge's Colossus (I own this) and HD PVRs are great devices but they do NOT produce DVD compliant video!
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  12. Member
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    Using single-layer DVDs, most DVD recorders can record up to 2 hours of decent quality video at full 720x480 resolution. Dual-layer DVDs can hold up to about 3 1/2 hours decent quality video at full 720x480 resolution, but few DVD recorders can use them for recording. Good dual-layer discs also cost about $1 each.

    For anything over 2 hours on a single-layer disc, most DVD recorders switch to 352x480 recording mode, and the video quality is not as good. Another problem is that 16:9 video input will be squished into a 4:3 frame because DVD recorders generally don't set the 16:9 widescreen flag for NTSC video. Most digital TVs can override the 4:3 aspect ratio and display the video corectly as 16:9 video, but analog CRT's don't do that. The aspect ratio can be corrected for 720:480 resolution by copying to a PC and setting the widescreen flags in the IFO and the video, but will take extra time. However, the DVD standard doesn't support widescreen for 352x480 resolution.

    Some Panasonic DVD recorders can use dual-layer discs and have a flexible recording mode, which will set a custom bitrate and might record decent quality at 2 1/2 hours per single layer DVD. The widescreen flag would still be a problem. However Panasonic no longer makes DVD recorders for N. America. International Panasonic models that can record NTSC video from line-inputs are still available from specialty retailers, but they have no manufacturer warranty. Here is one example http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/620022-REG/Panasonic_DMR_ES18_DMR_ES18_Multi_Sys..._Zone_DVD.html

    A Pansonic DVD recorder may or may not solve your problems. I don't know if anything on the computer side can work for this. The time frame seems unrealistic.
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    Well, that explains why the 16:9 DVDs always end up looking squished. Thanks for that. I always change the aspect ratio on the media player when I watch the DVDs, but I always wondered why they weren't 16:9.

    30 minutes really is unrealistic. How long should it take to burn a 150-minute DVD from transcoded video? A basic menu with a few chapter points, authored in Encore.
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    Originally Posted by Telemov View Post
    I am not against the idea of buying a dedicated external recording/DVD burning computer with an HD-SDI capture card, if anybody has any experience/insight on that subject.
    The quality loss is because of using LP mode on the DVD recorder. To use a computer as a real time DVD mastering station there is no need for HD-SDI capture. Capture 480i over YPbPr component and encode in real-time for the DVD. The benefit of the computer is more efficient mpeg2 encoding that supports wide screen.

    Have you thought about including a coupon with the DVD for an additional HD blu-ray disk that will be shipped after the event? I would price things so the DVD plus blu-ray costs about 50% more than just the DVD. Since your output is 720p it would take almost no additional work to master a blu-ray later.
    Last edited by ejolson; 13th Feb 2012 at 01:42.
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    Mastering a DVD in 30 minutes is doable. I don't know about Encore, but in the mastering software I use, I can set up the menus ahead of time. Then, If nothing goes wrong, it would take about 5 minutes to put the files in place and another 5 minutes to burn the DVD after the event is over.
    Last edited by ejolson; 13th Feb 2012 at 01:59.
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  16. Member
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    Originally Posted by ejolson View Post
    Mastering a DVD in 30 minutes is doable.
    This is correct, but to avoid giving potential misleading information, do note that ejolson said MASTERING. He did NOT say "re-encode" or "edit". And I've got a feeling that the jerk manager in this scenario probably won't be satisfied with the first copy being available in 30 minutes but wants dozens of them ready in that time frame. This just sounds like an impossible task to me.
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    I'm definitely interested in a workflow that would allow for real-time capture/conversion. We do have a dedicated graphics person who could do basic edits to a simple DVD menu during the game, then drop the captured files into a new timeline and send it to burn.

    I really had high hopes for the Pinnacle Studio capture option, as I'm fairly certain it records to DVD-compliant mpeg, and the DVD authoring features are pretty straightforward. I used it back on the days of Studio 8 and captured plenty of hi-8 tapes to DVD-compliant mpeg.

    Would the green noise in the capture preview of Studio 14 possibly mean that the Tricaster was sending out the wrong resolution? Maybe the Tricaster doesn't send out 480i unless the broadcast is 480i? I'll ask Newtek.

    I also tried capturing with Adobe OnLocation. It recognized the capture card, but didn't show anything in the preview. It also doesn't capture to Mpeg.

    I still have a Pinnacle capture card and the Studio 14 software. I tried Composite out>Pinnacle> USB on external computer and that didn't work. I'm not familiar with capturing via Component out, but am willing to give it a shot.

    Barring that, should I be looking into a different mpeg capture card with software that allows for adjustable bit rate? Our existing computers don't have FireWire, just USB 2.

    As we have never had a good way to capture/record better DVDs in real time (or within a short time post game), I might be able to convince my boss to invest in a dedicated capture/burning PC. Ideally, I'd like to keep it on the PC we already have, but it would have to be able
    to capture, burn, and start capturing again in 15 minutes. The games in this tournament are back to back for a week straight, 9 hours a day.

    The only edits we would be doing to the captured mpeg is maybe trimming in/out, and adding chapter points for each period if we felt really ambitious.

    I do like the idea of having coupons for Blu-ray. That could be a good upsell, while providing at least something for immediate use. We have three 7-bay duplicating towers, which burn our current DVDs in 10 minutes. I'm sure a higher quality DVD made from captured mpeg, and with menus might take longer, though.

    So I guess the next question is which capture card with real time mpeg encoding should I look into next?
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    Some of the older Hauppauge analog capture cards capture as DVD complient MPEG2 files. You can also set a bitrate that will ensure you get the whole event on one DVD. A program like VideoReDo will allow you to make edits (cuts) without re-encoding. These can then be dropped into most DVD authoring programs and won't need to be converted (the authoring program will just re-mux into VOBs). You can create the menu before hand then drop the files into the project, create chapter points if you want, and then create a DVD structure or iso on the hard drive. Then make copies from that.
    Last edited by Khaver; 13th Feb 2012 at 11:18.
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  19. Member MOVIEGEEK's Avatar
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    Converting 720p to 480i and burning a DVD in 30 min is impossible, tell your boss to lighten up.
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    or get a new boss
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    Can the Tricaster 850 Exterme not output MPEG2 video through its aux output?
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    I'm not sure what format Composite is.

    Moviegeek: I don't think he's expecting 720p to 480i conversion in 30 minutes, just a way to get better DVDs. As has been suggested, burning a pre-authored DVD from a captured Mpeg in 30 minutes might be doable. I will pass on the suggestion to get a new boss, though. That's gold.
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    Originally Posted by robjv1 View Post
    Can the Tricaster 850 Exterme not output MPEG2 video through its aux output?
    I think the Tricaster is being used to record 1280x720p AVC. For the instant DVD all that is needed is a computer with some sort of capture device that can record widescreen 4kbps DVD compliant video in real time. The bitrate requirement rules out most stand-alone DVD recorders and probably a number of hardware-based mpeg2 capture devices. However, almost any computer with a video frame grabber coupled to a software encoder would work fine.
    Last edited by ejolson; 14th Feb 2012 at 00:02.
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    Originally Posted by Telemov View Post
    I'm not sure what format Composite is.

    Moviegeek: I don't think he's expecting 720p to 480i conversion in 30 minutes, just a way to get better DVDs. As has been suggested, burning a pre-authored DVD from a captured Mpeg in 30 minutes might be doable. I will pass on the suggestion to get a new boss, though. That's gold.
    "Composite" refers to the type of video available using the yellow RCA port on VCRs, DVD recorders and other video equipment. It provides SD analog interlaced video, 480i at best for NTSC TV systems.

    Burning a pre-authored DVD from a captured MPEG3 in 30 minutes might be doable (barely), but I have enough experience with MPEG2 capture using a computer to know someone is making this sound much easier than it is.

    First, not every capture device will provide reliable, high-quality digitization. Another problem is finding capture software that can work with an individual device and provide enough control over the bitrate for real-time MPEG-2 encoding to a desired file size. The software that comes with the card may or may not provide it. Frequently what the device's own software has available now is "good", "better" and "best" type presets. Software from 3rd parties may not work with the capture device or if it does work, it may not provide a good real-time MPEG2 encoder. [Edit]...but I guess you probably already know this [End edit]

    If someone knows what they are doing and the drivers that come with a capture device provide decent WDM or DirectShow MPEG2 encoders, or there is a Direct Show MPEG2 encoder from another source that will work, it may be possible to create a custom capture graph in GraphEdit or Graphstudio, but it takes some time to figure one out.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 14th Feb 2012 at 01:06.
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    Originally Posted by ejolson View Post
    Originally Posted by robjv1 View Post
    Can the Tricaster 850 Exterme not output MPEG2 video through its aux output?
    I think the Tricaster is being used to record 1280x720p AVC. For the instant DVD all that is needed is a computer with some sort of capture device that can record widescreen 4kbps DVD compliant video in real time. The bitrate requirement rules out most stand-alone DVD recorders and probably a number of hardware-based mpeg2 capture devices. However, almost any computer with a video frame grabber coupled to a software encoder would work fine.
    Well, I only mention it because looking at the specs for the Tricaster 850 Extreme, it would appear that it can simultaneously output multiple formats,i.e. a full HD signal and an SD format and it also mentions being able to record in MPEG2 -- though I'm not sure if that is for all outputs or if you can specify one of them individually. If it was possible though, I wonder if you couldn't just dump that data via Firewire to an external HD and then author the video.
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    Originally Posted by robjv1 View Post
    Well, I only mention it because looking at the specs for the Tricaster 850 Extreme, it would appear that it can simultaneously output multiple formats,i.e. a full HD signal and an SD format and it also mentions being able to record in MPEG2 -- though I'm not sure if that is for all outputs or if you can specify one of them individually.
    The Tricaster records SD mpeg2 I-frame at 50mbps which is not DVD compatible. While it can export DVD compatible files to an externally attached USB drive, it can't do this fast enough for mastering a DVD in 30 minutes. One solution is to set one of the outputs on the Tricaster to 16:9 SD and use a standalone DVD recorder. However, this is not optimal, because the program is too long for SP mode and widescreen recording is not supported in LP mode.
    Last edited by ejolson; 14th Feb 2012 at 03:58.
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    Originally Posted by Telemov View Post
    Would the green noise in the capture preview of Studio 14 possibly mean that the Tricaster was sending out the wrong resolution? Maybe the Tricaster doesn't send out 480i unless the broadcast is 480i?
    Use the 2nd or AUX outputs, set them to Composite + Y/C and connect the composite cable to the connector labeled Y. Better quality will result by capturing through S-Video or YPbPr component.
    Last edited by ejolson; 14th Feb 2012 at 03:59.
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    Originally Posted by ejolson View Post
    Originally Posted by Telemov View Post
    Would the green noise in the capture preview of Studio 14 possibly mean that the Tricaster was sending out the wrong resolution? Maybe the Tricaster doesn't send out 480i unless the broadcast is 480i?
    Use the 2nd or AUX outputs, set them to Composite + Y/C and connect the composite cable to the connector labeled Y. Better quality will result by capturing through S-Video or YPbPr component.
    I'm pretty sure we are lining out of the AUX via Composite +Y/C. External DVD recorders can see the signal, but the Pinnacle box couldn't. I'll try the Component today. There is no S-video out from the Tricaster.

    As was mentioned earlier, we are indeed recording Pgm out to the Tricaster's internal drive but it is 720p I-frame mpeg (2?). The TriCaster can also record QuickTime if desired. Maybe I should look at the option of transcoding those files instead? I imagine that could take awhile.

    On that note, any suggestions on a workflow to burn those internally recorded files to Blu-ray? I know that's getting a bit off topic, but if working with those files is a better option, it could save us a lot of money on an external PC or capture device. I have adobe cs5 and Final Cut pro. The only problem with the internally recorded footage is that Premiere can't read the QuickTime audio, and the Mpegs take a long time to conform. Final cut can play/edit the QuickTime files, but has to render the Mpegs. I prefer to work with cs5 if possible because Encore really rocks my socks. It would be great to have some blu-ray discs for archive purposes.
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    Even if you get this working and through some miracle you get your DVDs made in 30 minutes as you want, you may still have issues. Some percentage of your customers will very likely not be able to play the discs you make. They will either be morons or they will have a DVD player they bought 10 years ago that they still use and it won't like your media. There is really no way to ensure that 100% of your customers will play discs you burn no matter what you do. You will need to use the very best media to give yourself the best chance of success. That means either Verbatim (the good AZO dye stuff and NOT their current cheap "Life" line of discs) or Taiyo Yuden. If you burn to DL media, you introduce even more chances for problems. Some older DVD players simply will not play consumer burnable DL discs no matter what you do. Just understand that some of your customers may have playback problems and they will blame you for it even though you're not the one who put the disc in upside down in their player or bought a player 10 years ago that they are still trying to use. With BluRay it could be ever worse. There is just no way I would ever get into this line of work because customers suck and dealing with their stupidity sucks even more.
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    Lolz. Well, all I can do is try to get a DVD that has some semblance of universal-ity out. I'll forward any disgruntled customers' emails to my boss.

    The Blu ray copies would likely just be for in-house use, such as presentations or annual reviews for the higher-ups. If we were to distribute BD to the public, I'd send them to a mastering house for duplication.
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